if you just joined us for a welcome or to live here in the sky or would you trade it for us today top stories now is raining tear gas and stun grenades meat protesters across the palestinian territories at least one person has been killed on the students of marquis landay remembering six demonstrators who died during land confiscation over thirty years ago. french police not around twenty suspected islam it's in a series of raids in several cities around the country in the wake of the to lose killings of french presidential hopefuls grandpop anti immigrant told during their campaigns. despite officially backing a u.n.

sponsored peace plan for syria nato countries are still funding the rebels britain's promise to funnel additional aid to the opposition with hundreds of thousands of pounds. up about to with more on this story in full in an hour from now in the meantime cross-talk continues to do well on the syrian issue does the west still harbor plans for a foreign intervention in the country find out now. keep . a low aim welcome across concrete about serious divides as the peace plan for syria

gains international support worries remain it is only a lull before the civil war in the country resumes with greater intensity and violence on all sides as the west and its allies in the region still harbor plans for another humanitarian intervention. can. start. to cross out the new peace time for syria i'm joined by herbert lunden in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute in brussels we go to someplace mon he is a writer and author of humanitarian imperialism and in london we have lindsey german she is the convener of the british anti-war organization stop the war coalition right folks this is cross-eyed that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encouraged her but if i go to you first in new york what's your sense of kofi annan peace plan for syria is that it beginning or is it a dead end post probably a dead end largely because the civil war is likely to go on assad has engaged in

murderous activities thousands of people have lost their lives it's a terrible situation the problem however is what is the aftermath if in fact assad is deposed what actually occurs is the muslim brotherhood that takes over and yet it gets yet another foot half foot lock in and that part of the world or in fact as do the democratic forces emerge there are a lot of competing interests russia obviously has a warm water port in syria and would like to see. see the retention of those side you have the chinese playing a role there as well so it's a very very complicated situation for senator mccain has called for military action on the part of the united states and its allies i doubt very much whether that will occur in large part because we are very much concerned about what happens after assad if indeed there is an after assad ok i'm glad you're thinking about the aftermath because that's what i always think about lucy if i can go to you i mean the peace process there if we can be called a peace process it least there is the interest to get the indigenous parties on the

ground or start talking it may be too late but a lot of people would say and myself included are never too late to try to talk well as the civil war rages on and i'd like to also point out to react to her body russia is also interested in international law let's keep libya in mind so go ahead recently go ahead lindsay go right ahead for what i feel i think the the problem here is that the intervention is already under why you can't really look at what's happening in syria without looking at all sorts of things that have happened in recent months the attempts to broker. the opposition force with the syrian national council which is happened this week the various attempts at sanctions which of them made the covert intervention on the ground. against the syrian army and against our side and i thought i think the real problem here i don't think the kofi annan peace process is going to be. effective for i really no real very

strong feeling is this is not something that is the business of the united states britain and the western powers when we talk about and also matter in syria we should remember we do have something to cast by we've seen what's happened in iraq we've seen what's happened in afghanistan these have been disasters by any standards and the idea libya which was only last year. which is perhaps the most directly comparable you see fantastic levels of corruption of destruction of the country the idea of democracy and progress that really very very far from being a change what's going to change this regime change and that is not the business of the united states or anybody else to fight for the only people who should be able to do this is the people of the country themselves occasion and i'm going to you in brussels here lindsey's already hold it well it's going it's going to be let's go to brussels first ok lindsay says an intervention has already started so maybe the

peace plan is really just kind of a piece of paper i mean there is an intention it is an intention and we we've already heard from hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state she doesn't care what assad has to say she cares about what he does and if he doesn't do what she wants then regime change is still in the cards go ahead. here's where i think first of all you have to put that in the context i think there's been a sort of madness that has taken over a certain number of western elites after the fall of the wall in the victory in the cold war sort of this innocent success which has given the ideas of who they lead the whole framework of international law which has kept sort of peace after world war two and less big is actually on the lessons of world war two namely the framework of the united nations the united nations charter the quality of all nations the servant equals one fearful nation was something to be put in the dustbin of history and they have started that in yugoslavia they've continued in

afghanistan in iraq in the bia in somalia it's a car and they are spread disaster after disaster in my opinion and of course like all invaders they provide the they provoke a counter force and now they are cruel to counter force which seems to exist in syria which is done through the resistance of the hands of russia and china to their money in a lot of latin america to their germany goes in a thing that we need resistance and eventually they'll be blocked likely will grow can get now on like israel has been dogged by hezbollah in lebanon and this is maybe the endgame for the humanitarian intervention is one thing that's a very good thing because we'll go back to more stable work based on the international law negotiation and not the unifil use of force by people who self proclaimed themselves defenders of human rights and i think it's fitting actually that good napoleon hitler were still very harsh and now it seems that russia is stopping the germany chremes of the united states ok herbert i see you smiling what

kind of smile is there go ahead well i'm smiling because it's a rather produced view of recent history in fact it was not international law or the united nations to maintain equilibrium after world war two was the united states navy if you're talking about the relative peace of the patton world we've had relative peace because of us. intervention you might call it imperialism i would call it a part of a role that the united states is playing and maintaining a balance on a very well see it is easy for you a well he's not an englishman as he always says yes also cruising there somebody with your engine is in the ways the united states plays a very significant role in maintaining the kind of peace that you would like to see even in iraq i mean this is the focus this is doing because i feel sorry in the middle there either focus liaising ways herbert opened up a can of worms here lyndsey you first go ahead. the problem is if you talk to most iraqis and after all many iraqis at the time of saddam hussein many of them argued

there should be intervention because this would get rid of a dictator and that was what they wanted virtually nobody in iraq will say the thing has been a success there's been a lot of failure the troops had to leave the british troops left several years ago the american troops have now left for the most part of have left the country and they've left a totally broken country but quite incredibly trying to do the same again both in syria and in my view even more dangerously in the wrong and you know what you have to recognize that this view that the whole of world peace has been the americans is a olds with what millions of people around the world really think is not an accurate description of the end of the second world war it's not a night for a description of the post-war period where america was involved in the most bloody and damaging war in vietnam virtually nobody defends that war today and he has played an absolute destruction for all in the middle east backing dictators going

in to get resources under this still but is still quite stick taters that is for the the arab league and the gulf cooperation council are composed of people who are very quick to attack because after your ass who are perfectly happy to repress their own people using western loans to do so ok zhang in brussels you want to react usually madrid is in history when it was russia is just it's very easy to begin with for the program started i think fair time for everyone john go ahead you have to guarantee millions of the in the american intervention in southeast asia in southern africa india the world the embargo against iraq the interventions. also to take into account the overthrow of myself they were the democratic leader of we have. which started all the terrible history of you here and there were scenes there were a core of our friends in guatemala we started to see which blocked the we took

a forms in latin america over to a file again which is another way to go from what they're doing now which are various that they've been blocking reformist and democratically for on earth if we were the good we have of their imperialist and get us where we are those reforms so it seems to me that the united states has been quite the opposite of. a mean thing in peace because even i mean these days of good david lee by waging war and in day hopefully very provoking here and again it's very early in the region let me jump in here but i want to the way to quote what is there in the middle east which is going to mean ok we're getting a little after getting off with getting a little half brother if your legs were getting a little after we heard what is the west's interest in syria and we keep reading this all the time what is the interest or is it another word for iran i don't think that the west has any specific interest in syria except that a defeat of assad would also be

a defeat of iran it's interesting that in the conversations that take place with the united states seeing the villain in this interpretation of this rather naive interpretation of history iran hasn't been mentioned nor has of course nine eleven been mentioned the united states was attacked on nine eleven we responded to that attack but let me let me go on if i may the the interest that we have to see that you responded to seeing the result of people in syria at the end those murderous activities have gone on for months per year if not longer now it seems to me that the united states is acting out of humanitarian desire to see that send this does not mean that we will engage in direct military intervention as i suggested despite the fact that senator mccain and others have suggested we do so so i think it's perfectly clear that we have an interest in seeing assad ousted we also have an interest in seems to belittle occur after risk. as removed how that stability would occur remains to be seen will it be a democratic will there be democratic impulses i doubt it the muslim brotherhood is

well organized to take control of the country ok maybe. for me please tell the leader four years ago what i need what have you when you speak to listen to everyone what if the muslim brotherhood has come to power in syria democratically then we have to accept the outcome right however exactly and this is really the matter is how but what are you saying is you don't like the current government in syria but potential future government in syria and other words this isn't about democracy is most about what the syrian people themselves want is about what the americans want and that is not acceptable and people who say no that's not going to hurt in the eleven look let me go in that you make three thousand three thousand i'm going to chime in here i'm going to do is sure after a ballot and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the situation in syria and stay parking.

if you can.

i. can still. welcome back to crossfire i'm curious about the true mind you were talking about the possible outcome of the syrian peace plan. can. still say. ok i'm going to go back to brussels and john i think if i were to rename this program from cross talk i would call it the law of unintended consequences because that's what this program has been about for about a year now looking at the arab spring what is the law of unintended consequences going are going on now in syria with western backing of these various opposition groups and very murky and when i point out that human rights watch and other human

rights groups are saying the opposition is could be committing atrocities as well so i mean think good guy bad guy thing is very unclear john go right ahead. first of all you have to be fair about who is there backing whom history did not start on nine eleven two thousand and one when bin laden was justifying nine eleven we say we thank you because if that person had been attacking us for eighty years in palestine by the colonization of palestine you should never forget that and this report to rest on this position of the palestinians from their lands i mean that's a major crime that is not forgetting about the world their interventions all over the place if the us is so concerned with democracy weighed only preach it to the saudi friends of the gulf states. with whom they are highlighted in syria i mean this is a this is a this concern for the moco see we are seeing the concern for the markets he waiting eight states in like an america from guatemala and there to. chile to.

chavez in venezuela to this and didn't. see it in the cargo it's a car i mean they undermine democracy whenever they don't like it in this report that it actually whenever they like it like this report in the show if you can i mean this is this is all talk about democracy and human rights from the from the pattering i think state is too stupid too he can use for words so one has to be ok because you're letting the new media manger police you get a major roy beer and i actually murdered her but i'm not going to hurt anyone i mean again the law of unintended consequences because united states is allied with well al qaeda right now in syria that's a very interesting. you know herbert to hear your little you heard in new york i had the luck i mean the possibility of trying to understand what is happening in the world occurs when you have a kind of left wing agenda of the kind that we just heard when you're talking about the palestinians for example keeping the line scary that we now call the palestinian area was once part of jordan it's not the one nine hundred sixty seven

years really is ok and i don't want to you that it was time is really because we don't just throw this guy in the state. serious i'm going to let me be serious and then i'll go. relieve some pollution was you. really reducing the calorie care we're getting off topic really all you me for enjoying ok when you see when. i please mother why do what you say ok. can we stay with syria ok go ahead well i mean want my point is sorry you can carry on well my point is that actually the unintended consequences of the war in iraq have been in my opinion two fold one to strengthen iran which was not what the americans intended when they went to war but actually it's been the consequence of overthrowing saddam hussein secondly to with the help to trigger off the arab spring and

now what you're finding is that the intervention in syria is very much related to those two things it's related to trying to weaken iran in the region whether iran is to attack directly first or whether syria is it seems to me that both of them are in the sights of of the united states and of and of their allies is also an attempt to regain control of the region after the overthrow of pro western dictators in tunisia and egypt and that's what that's what libya was about that is what the intervention in syria is about and i would say can i say i find it quite incredible what herbert thinks the united states does have a right to tell the rest of the world what to do why i wouldn't dream of crocky way into eventually illusions and in this case is i mean i don't i don't hang around with. everybody listen up ok when you see interesting

question herbert herbert go ahead. i want to i want to tell you why girls because points novel go ahead i never use the i never use the expression that the united states has a right i'm simply your exercising a somewhat different judgment at the united states has very often played a role in maintaining equilibrium but let me make another point about syria if i may the opposition forces in syria are not at all clear it may be true that al-qaeda is playing a role it is not only al-qaeda there are a number of forces that represent the opposition in syria so when you're talking about the united states supporting al-qaeda the united states. working with the lesson is that i don't know in syria i am side of i didn't say working with on the same side i said that the opposition forces in syria represent a number of different interests and it is not simply al-qaeda that's the only point that i'm making when you're talking about libya the result of the remains uncertain

we're not entirely clear about what the result will be so for the judgment to be made that we know exactly what has happened is not at all accurate ok john there was no wait there's another thing the answer in the tree from getting we all got in that that's the only thing on this and the only one going to be doing that john go ahead in brussels. you see it's too easy also to speak of the west because the west is divided has always been divided there are the new conservative forces and the police forces and a certain number of human rights people who want to wage war and create international law and destroy international but there are people who are quite a different opinion for example wilkerson who is the former head of the chief of staff of colin powell's recently. i think on the news that we have he said that he considered mcinnis completely completely insane this idea of going to war with syria and there being the general mattis for example who is the head of the central command has already said that they can kill is not feasible to have an intervention

in syria because of the anti-missile defense of. their bio shock one as also to be very careful about the news that are given by the western media about syria because there are lots of facts which you can prove again for being demonstration in hama where somebody a knew was there and he counted a few thousand people in pictures and everything published them and the media reporting five hundred thousand people are certain of those who announce that they're being a mystery like in the headquarter of the bad party in the manson able picture of somebody standing in front the next day with the newspaper printed the next day in front of those headquarter ensuring that the new search we say like and that was supported an al-jazeera and all the western media there are several examples of media lies about syria which would make us care full about what we knew about that country we don't know much about the kountry we have a new right when you're going to bring them national committees against the feeling the nation comedian really has majority of people of the world against that and

that's what i want to defend her but you know one of the things that really bothers me is that i hate i agree with your concern about the outcome ok maybe how we get there maybe that's where we differ but you know when the united states or other western powers say assad must go it's pretty hard to backtrack a backtrack on that isn't it. i think indeed it is and as has been asserted just a moment ago when our point that i agree with is that the media by and large has not really represented the issues very effectively by a large you do get a bias there and so i think it's very difficult to determine exactly what's going on but the good research into international law i regard as some odd absurd i mean international law to whom the united states or for russia to rand who is involved in international law and under what circumstances this notion of actually observed it's not at all clear and i mean what are we referring to whose international law is it the united nations is it nato what are we referring to these are the result

of his movies or should know me these are great soldiers also not meaning i don't think he i don't know he that international noise and i don't think he that you're about to call me to know that all world lucky the only question would be the unintended consequence is the question is whether it's legal or not and he's clearly not legal to intervene in syria these no you and his mission to determine what is legal solution and they won't be on his solution because they need to us very early to it's only in his edition and in the case of libya and the russia and china doesn't we don't want to be taken for how he wants war and there. lindsey please jump in here because well when we exactly and the russians also have an interest in syria well i mean russia also doesn't want to raise the entire weight is really to their interest ok no one wants to see the region lou up and lindsey go ahead this this whole question of who's international law or nato doesn't determine international night i was an aggressive force which is increasingly invariance as unfit as a war there is

a multi of international law which is against regime change which is against offensive for this is absolutely clear since the second most on the u.n. is part of that now but the truth is this idea that somehow you can just make up and that's the war we had this time in there into. iraq we had it again over libya . i was shown. the the resolution when with all the arise any action which people agreed was far exceeded and then due to a regime change which was not which was not the case so we have to look at this we also have to look at what is going on here there is no way i'll give you an example of there are no more things wars going on look afghanistan is a disaster everybody everybody knows this is not going to hold until twenty forty because the afghan soldiers who are supposed to be the replacement for the americans and the british and so on are killing the american and british soldiers

to british soldiers killed or killed this week over a result things which every single one of these if you look only was going on you have to say there are a failure ok how afghanistan will be americans i know i said what i want i want to be fair i don't care if i started to throw ground by saying i want to be fair to everyone in time herbert you get the last word robert gets the last word go ahead ok well look let me just make one very simple point about international law if i may when we talk about international law and you refer of course of the united states being very much concerned about an iran with nuclear weapons having a profound influence on both the politics as well as the military affairs in the middle east international law suggests and christopher torie self defense is a very appropriate law it is a war of international law and yet interestingly what about those nine everyone says really good bad all we talk about is violations of international law clearly there is a role israel is the only economically mentally as you know me that has used nearly

went away to wipe a legitimate nation didn't need the weapons in the hands of the then if you're talking about international law to be fair about your analysis all right for taking whom i mean the reason i was here in this is am a very new i definition of what crosstalk means thank you very much many thanks to my guest today in brussels new york you're in line. and frank through our viewers watching us here are to see you next time and remember across top roles. let's play pick me pick. them up if you can. play a. clip. of the. science technology innovation hall the list of elements from around russia we've got the future coverage.