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can't. think it's going to. blow him welcome across town peter about serious divides as the peace plan for syria gains international support worries remain but is only a low before the civil war in the country resumes with greater intensity and violence on all sides does the west and its allies in the region still harbor plans for another humanitarian intervention. can. you cross out the new peace plan for syria i'm joined by herbert lunden in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute in brussels we go to john priest mown he is a writer and author of humanitarian imperialism and in london we have lindsey

german she is the convener of the british anti-war organization stop the war coalition all right folks this is cross-eyed that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encouraged her but if i go to you first in new york what's your sense of kofi annan peace plan for syria is it a beginning or is it a dead end well it's probably a dead end largely because the civil war is likely to go on saddam has engaged in murderous activities thousands of people have lost their lives it's a terrible situation the problem however is what is the aftermath if in fact assad is the pose what actually occurs is the muslim brotherhood that takes over and yet it gets yet another put it put a lock in and that part of the world or in fact does do the democratic forces emerge there are a lot of competing interests russia obviously has a warm water port in syria and would like to see the retention assad you have the chinese playing a role there as well so it's a very very complicated situation well senator mccain has called for military

action on the part of the united states and its allies i doubt very much whether that will occur and large part because. we are very much concerned about what happens after assad if indeed there is an after assad ok and i'm glad you're thinking about the aftermath because that's what i always think about lindsey if i can go to you i mean the peace process there if we can be called a peace process it least there is the interest to get the indigenous parties on the ground or start talking it may be too late but a lot of people would say and myself included it's never too late to try to talk but as the civil war rages on and i'd like to also point out to react to her body russia is also interested in international law which keep libby in mind so go ahead reason to go ahead lindsey go right ahead for a lot i think i think the the problem here is that the intervention is already under why you can't really look at what's happening in syria without looking at all sorts of things that have happened in recent months the attempts to broker one the opposition force with the syrian national council which has happened

this week the various attempts at sanctions which you've made the covert intervention on the ground. against the syrian army and against our side and i think i think the real problem here i don't think the kofi annan peace process is going to be at all effective for the really my real very strong feeling is this is not something that is the business of the united states britain and the other western powers when we talk about all of the math in syria we should remember we do have something to close by we've seen what's happened in iraq we've seen what's happened in afghanistan these have been disasters by any standards and the idea libya which was only last year which is crap the most directly comparable you see fantastic levels of corruption of destruction of the country the idea of democracy

and progress that really very very far from being achieved what's been achieved is . it is not the business of the united states or anybody else to affect free. people who should be able to do this for the people of the country themselves to you and brussels here lindsay's already hold it well it's going to it's going to be let's go to brussels first ok lindsay says an intervention has already started so maybe the peace plan is really just kind of a it's a piece of paper i mean there is an intention it is an intention and we we've already heard from hillary clinton the u.s. secretary of state that she doesn't care what assad has to say she cares about what he does and if he doesn't do what she wants then regime change is still in the cards go ahead. yes well i think first of all you have to put that in the context i think there's been a sort of madness that has taken over a certain number of western elites after the fall of the wall and the victory in the cold war sort of this innocent success which has given the ages of those elite

the whole framework of international law which has kept sort of peace after world war two and less big is actually on the lessons of world war two namely the framework of the united nations the united nations charter the equality of all nations the seven equal seventy of all nation was something to be put in the dustbin of history and they have started that in yugoslavia they've continued in afghanistan in iraq in the libya in somalia etc and they are spread disaster after disaster in my opinion and of course they call invaders they provide the they provoke a counterforce and now the approval to counter force which seems to his east in syria which is done this through the resistance of the hands of russia and china today or germany in a lot of latin america today of germany goes in anything that we need for assistance and eventually they'll be blocked like the will block in vietnam like israel has been blocked by hezbollah in lebanon and this is maybe the endgame for

the humanitarian intervention is a thing that's a very good thing because we'll go back to more stable world based on the international law negotiation and not the unity of all use of force by people who self proclaimed themselves defenders of human rights and even though it's fitting actually that good napoleon and hitler were stopped by and now it seems that pressure is stopping germany claims of being a it's really ok herbert i see you smiling what kind of smile is there go ahead while i'm smiling because it's a rather produced view part of recent history in fact it was not the international law of united nations to maintain equilibrium after world war two it was the united states navy if you're talking about the relative peace that we've had in the world we've had relative peace because of us. intervention you might call it imperialism i would call it a part of the role that the united states is playing in maintaining a balance on the world see the world is not in the same as your life sees us also cruising the edges in line with your friends in the ways the united states plays

a very significant role in maintaining the kind of peace that you would like to see even in iraq is your focus is really because i was already in the midst of making the eldorado photos liaising laser herbert opened up a can of worms here lyndsey you first go ahead. we the problem is if you talk to most iraqis and after all many iraqis at the time of saddam hussein many of them argued this should be intervention because this would get rid of a dictator and that was what they wanted virtually nobody in iraq will say that the thing has been a success there's been a lot of failure the troops had to leave the british troops left several years ago the american troops have now left for the most part of left the country and they've left a totally broken country but quite incredibly trying to do the same again both in syria and in my view even more dangerously in the wrong and you know what you have to recognize that this view. of the whole of world peace has been the americans is

olds with what millions of people around the world really think is not an accurate description of the end of the second world war it's not a night for a description of a post-war period where america was involved in the most bloody and damaging war in vietnam virtually nobody to friends that war today and he has played an absolutely destructive for all in the middle east backing dictators going in to get resources and this still parts is still quite steep taters that is for the the arab league and the gulf cooperation council are composed of people who are very quick to attack because i feel as i put who are perfectly happy to repress their own people using restaurants to do so ok zhang brussels you want to react usually made her decision of history let me get this right she was just explaining where to begin with you for the program fair time for everyone john go ahead you have to care of the millions of the in the american intervention in. southeast asia in

southern africa india the embargo against iraq the interventions. to take into account the overthrow of mosul take was the democratic leader of. which started all the variable history of you and there were scenes there were a total of our brains in guatemala we started we looked the we took the forms in latin america the overthrow of india which is another way to go from what they're doing now which are various that they've been blocking reformist and democratic reform that's everywhere the good we have of their release and. those reforms so it seems to me that the united states has been quite the opposite of. maintaining peace with that in the main these days of would they take the bay we've seen war in in the very provoking here and again it's very early let me just let me jump in

here but i want to generally bait support for israel in the middle east which as you know i mean ok we're getting a little off track we're getting out an article we're getting a little half colleagues on larry's we're getting a little after we heard what is the west's interest in syria and we keep reading this all the time what is the interest is that another word for iran i don't think that the west has any specific interest in syria except that a defeat of assad would also be a defeat of iran it's interesting that in the conversations that take place with the united states seeing the villain in this interpretation of this rather naive interpretation of history iran hasn't been mentioned nor has of course nine eleven been mentioned the united states was attacked on nine eleven we responded to that attack but let me let me go on if i may the the interest that he had to say that you responded to seeing the result that he believes in syria at the end those murderous activities have gone on for months per year if not longer now it seems to me that the united states is acting out of humanitarian desire to see this in this

does not mean that we will engage in direct military intervention as i suggested despite the fact that senator mccain and others have suggested we do so so i think it's perfectly clear that we have an interest in seeing assad ousted we also have an interest in seeing stability occur after risk. it is rude how that stability will occur remains to be seen will it be a democratic will there be democratic impulses i doubt it but most of brotherhood is well organized to take control of the country ok maybe. we're here for military police a little bit of order here is i don't know anyone who does need to listen and everyone what if the muslim brotherhood does come to power in syria democratically then we have to accept the outcome right herbert exactly i'm sure we will monterey's hope but what are you saying is you don't like the current government in syria but you don't like what central feature government in syria and all the was this isn't about some more closely it's not about what the syrian people themselves well it's about what the americans want i'm not is not acceptable and people who say no

that's now going to hurt in the eleven look let me go on in that you made three thousand three thousand i'm going to chime in here i'm going to tell you where sure operate our money and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the situation in syria the state party. and.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so sleep you think you understand it and then a blip something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't i'm sorry was a big shock. to

take a. listen to. welcome back to crossfire i'm about to remind you we're talking about the possible outcome of the syrian peace plan. live can. live. ok i'd like to go back to brussels and john i think if i were to rename this program from cross talk i would call it the law of unintended consequences because that's what this program has been about for about a year now looking at the arab spring what is the law of unintended consequences going out going on now in syria with western backing of these various opposition groups a very murky and when i point out that human rights watch and other human rights groups are saying the opposition is could be committing atrocities as well so i

mean the good guy bad guy thing is very unclear as john go right ahead. well first of all you have to be fair about who we said taking home history did not start on nine eleven two thousand and one when bin laden was justifying nine eleven he said we are thank you because he attacked us and you have been attacking us for eighty years in palestine by the colonization of palestine should never forget that and this reporter westone this position of the palestinians from their lands i mean that's a major crime that is not targeting the path of the world going to a vengeance all over the place if the u.s. is so concerned with democrats he weighed only preaching to the saudi friends of the gulf states. with whom they highlighted in syria i mean this is a this is a job this concern for the most has he we have seen the concern for democracy building eighteen states in that way america for what they were and there are two i live in chile to. chavez in venezuela to this and didn't. it will ship in nicaragua it's

a car. undermine democracy whenever they don't like it in this record whenever they like it like this you put it to show if you hand i mean this is this is all talk about democracy and human rights from the from the other thing i think states is too stupid too he can use four words so one has to be ok because you made the major voice of the game major avoid beer and i should emerge herbut i'm not going to have anything i mean again the law of unintended consequences because united states is allied with well al qaeda right now in syria very interesting first of all there i mean we know her go ahead in new york or you heard in new york go ahead the i mean the possibility of trying to understand what is happening in the world occurs when you have a kind of left wing agenda of the kind of we just heard when you're talking about the color schemes for example keep in mind as this area that we now call the palestinian area was once part of jordan it's not the one nine hundred sixty seven years really folks and i don't want to you know how it's time is really because we

don't there's probably sky i understand. how serious i want to be let me be serious ok and then i'll go. little easier to relieve some pollution was you. really reducing the time to be clear we're getting off topic really all you me so what you're saying ok you see lindsay going here is a tree i please love it or is it what you say ok. can we stay with syria ok go ahead with the name point my hear it my point is sorry you can carry on well my point is that actually the unintended consequences of the war in iraq have been in marking in two fold want to strengthen iran which was not what the americans intended when they went to war but actually it's been the consequence of overthrowing saddam hussein secondly to the help to trigger off the arab spring and now what you're finding is that the intervention in syria is very

much related to those two things it's related to trying to weaken iran in the region the wrong type directly first or whether syria is it seems to me that both of them are in the sights of of the united states and of and of their allies is also an attempt to regain control of the region after the overthrow of pro western dictators in chinese iran and egypt and that's what that's what libya was about that is what the intervention in syria is about and i would say again i find it quite incredible what herbert thinks the united states does have a right to tell the rest of the world what to do why i wouldn't dream of prague the way i need to see him to eventually illusions hiding escapism you know god is all right you know i want them all order. up ok when she

addressed a question to her current go ahead. i want to i want to tell you why garbage is going to go ahead i never use the i never use the expression that the united states has a right i'm simply or exercising a somewhat different judgment that the united states has very often played a role in maintaining equilibrium but let me make another point about syria if i may the opposition forces in syria i'm not at all clear it may be true that al-qaeda is playing a role and it's not only al-qaeda there are a number of forces that represent the opposition in syria so when you're talking about the united states supporting al-qaeda the united states i don't see forty i'd say are working when they're missing is that i don't know in syria i am side of i didn't say working with on the same side i said that the opposition forces in syria represent a number of different interests and it is not simply al-qaeda that's the only point that i'm making when you're talking about libya the result of the view remains uncertain we're not entirely clear about what the result will be so for the judgment to be made that we know exactly what has happened is not at all accurate

ok john now we know that we know the answer in the key the call from telling me all the time that that's the only thing on this in the early going to be living there john go ahead in brussels. you see it's too easy also to speak of the west because the west is divided has always been divided there are the neo conservative forces and the police forces and a certain number of human rights people who want to wage war and create international law and destroy it and national but there are people who are quite a different opinion for example wilkerson was the former head of the chief of staff of colin powell's recently. i think on the news network he said that he considered mcinnis completely completely seeing this idea of going to war with syria and there being the general mattis for example with the head of the central command has already said that technically it's not feasible to have an intervention in syria because of the anti-missile defense of. their profession when i was also

to be very careful about the news that are given by the western media about syria because there are lots of facts which you can prove have been false they've been demonstration in hama where somebody a knew was there any guarantee a few thousand people in pictures and everything published them and the media reporting five hundred thousand people which are certain to those who announce that there's been a mystery like like in the headquarters of the bad party in the mass and i repeat of somebody standing in front the next day we could newspaper printed the next day in front of those headquarter ensuring that you know such we say that back and that was who called it an al-jazeera and all the western media there are several examples of media lies about syria which would make a scare full about what we know about the kountry we don't know much about that count three we have to move when you're younger you are hearing national committees again said the healing the mission to me to me has majority of people in the world against that and that's what i want to defend her but you know one of the things

that really bothers me is that i i agree with your concern about the outcome ok maybe how we get there maybe that's where we differ but you know when the united states or other western powers say assad must go it's pretty hard to backtrack a backtrack on that isn't it. i think indeed indeed it is and as has been asserted just a moment ago when a point that i agree with is that the media by and large has not really represented the issues very effectively by and large you do get a bias there and so i think it's very difficult to determine exactly what's going on but the good assertion to international law i regard as some odd absurd i mean international law to whom for the united states or for russia through iran who is involved in international law and under what circumstances there is a notion of actually observed it's not at all clear and i mean what are we referring to whose international law is it the united nations is it nato what are we referring to and this was a kind of if these are russian or you know me these are very insulting it's almost i mean i don't think he i don't think he that the international noise. and i don't

think he that you're about to commute the middle of the world the only question would be the unintended consequence is the question is whether it's legal or not and he's clearly not legal to intervene in syria these no you and his regime and the only one of the leaders or mission and it won't be your enemies are these young people who do need to us very early to do its own u.n. resolution in the case of libya and the russia and china doesn't we don't want to be taken for hard once more and there had to be. lindsey please jump in here because well when we exactly and the russians also have an interest in syria well i mean russia also doesn't want his lazy entire wages really do that i mean that is ok though when one sees a whole range in lieu of lindsay go ahead this this whole question of who's international law and one thousand determined international law night i was on the ground force which is increasingly. as a war there is a policy of international law which is against right. offensive for that

this is absolutely clear since i come up on the u.n. is possible that now the truth is this this idea that somehow you can just make up if that's true or we have this with tony blair into iraq we had it again over libya . as jones says that the the the resolution when we thought arise any action which people agreed to was far exceeded and ended in regime change which was not which was not because so we have to look at this we also have to look at what is going on here and there is a movie on you and so. there are no more things was crying on look afghanistan is a disaster everybody knows everybody knows this is not going to hold for twenty forty because the afghan soldiers who are supposed to be trying to be the replacement for the americans and the british and so on are killing the american and british soldiers two british soldiers killed or killed this week over it result

things which every single one of these if you look only what is going on you have to say there are a failure ok how afghanistan william adams on earth he said what i want i want to be fair i don't care if i started this program by saying i want to be fair to everyone in time herbert you get the last word robert gets the last word go ahead ok well look let me just make one very simple point about international law i may when we talk about international law and you refer of course in the united states being very much concerned about an iran with nuclear weapons having a profound influence on both politics as well as the military affairs in the middle east the international laws are just going to say corey self defense is a very appropriate law it is a war of international law and yet interestingly whatever doesn't everyone says really bad all we talk about is violations of international law clearly there is a role israel is the only people making the claim it really is could not be that. he was nearly went to where the white allegedly nation didn't need nuclear weapons

to be handsome to me that if you're talking about international law then be fair about your analysis all right for taking whom i mean the reason i want you here in this is am a very new definition of what crosstalk means thank you very much many thanks to my guest today in brussels new york an inline. and thanks to our viewers watching is here are you here next time and remember across top roles. in the. download the official see how to change the phone the i pod touch from the i.q. sampson. one shall see life on the. video on demand on t.v.'s mine old costs and r.s.s.

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