the headlines for you there area r.t. . that peace plan for syria falls into place as regime troops begin their withdrawal the new western arab funding for the opposition it struggles against each other as they compete for more cash. security versus liberty the u.s. congress examines a new acting tackling cyber terror freedom activists from could become a license for any other state. and with binge drinking on the rise

the u.k. government bans to ban multi by discounts effort to curb the growing problem. next in the cross talk program people of l. asked his guests i thought democracy and islam can co-exist. can. start. to come to. a low in welcome across town peter lavelle game changer in egypt the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a presidential candidate in the upcoming election to stun to many is a policy and strategy reversal that changes the political calculus in the country is the muslim brotherhood attempting to hijack the revolution or merely trying to preserve and. live kick. start. to cross out the muslim brotherhood strategy

i'm joined today by lisa lapin in new york she's a writer and u.s. based investigative journalist and focusing on the middle east and islam in london we have an ability ramdani she is a journalist an academic who specializes in the middle east and north africa and in tel aviv we go to oren kessler he is middle east affairs correspondent for the jerusalem post all right folks this is crosswalk that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage that and the bill in london if i go to you first here what do you make of the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a candidate only a week ago two weeks ago they in fact equally denied that they were going to do it now they are we see the movement slightly fractured it's a big gamble and if they win they have all power. well absolutely it certainly is a dramatic shift from the muslim brotherhood. prior policy not to feel a candidate in the presidential race precisely because the accusations directed at the muslim brotherhood are already real doing too much power having the effect of

your monopoly on egyptian state affairs following the overwhelming victory in the parliament but also because they are also in charge overwhelmingly in drafting egypt's new constitution and i think their decision before not to send a candidate for the presidential race was to try and assuage the fears that they were seeking too much power but certainly this decision now to send a panda date for the election is a dramatic a u. turn and it would have not only dramatic consequences for the internal politics of the party the muslim brotherhood but also for egypt as a country because of its it's the largest country in the middle east and also because of its. privileged geo strategic position and there i say will have also consequences on the direction that the arab spring taking more generally in

a gang or nearly so what do you think about this is this a big gamble on the part of the brotherhood because and it was pointed out here i mean. go ahead because a lot of people say it's a gamble and it really strikes a third try really i don't think it's a gamble i don't think it's a surprise at all actually i think that this is been a revolution in stage for the last eighty three years and in fact you know they've never made they've never made a secret about the fact that they wanted complete control and they wanted shari'a law i mean wanted islamic law and that's been their foundational precepts since ninety. twenty eight it's not really a surprise to me at all so you don't find so do you think that this is something you think you're getting else you think you've been waiting for this for all this time particularly since the fall of the. regime i will go back to that oren in tel

aviv what do you think about the political calculus of the muslim brotherhood you know political actors anywhere in the world that want to increase and maintain and retain their power whether it's the egyptian army or the muslim brotherhood or you name it i don't know of any party in the world. that doesn't want to hold power. in the case of the army you would rather sort of reap the benefits and second of having its fingers and almost every economic part in egypt without you know having to take responsibility for the economy but surely both the army and the brotherhood want to maintain their interest maintain maintain power sure bill what do you think about that because that means the it's quite obvious the army doesn't the military doesn't want to give up power because it controls mostly of the of the economy and their privileges and their you know they have a very nice lifestyle they've had it for a long time and the have a very good friend in washington as well i mean the status quo was always suited the military in egypt since the fall of mubarak. what very much so i would slightly

disagree with the assessment that the muslim brotherhood's decision to send a candidate in in the end is true i would actually call it pragmatic i think there's a simple reason behind the muslim brotherhood's decision and that is to take advantage of what is effectively a historical chance for them to actually wilt power for the first time in the country's history there have been all sorts of theories behind the reasons why there are standing candidates including. cynics would say. that there is some secrets pact between the muslim brotherhood and the military in an attempt to amend taint the status quo and indeed to engage in a power sharing deal i think you know that if a muslim brotherhood candidate is elected he will have he will have huge responsibilities to a source how the economy of the country let's not lose sight that it's the major

problem that the country's facing and because the muslim brotherhood will then be the only challenger for the military the only party that will have to hold the military accountable and indeed put it in its place but people being crucial purse for the car the enormous sorts of fields including politics but also the economy and indeed the social problems of the country and if i go back to you in new york being the mother of the brother of yours on brotherhood claims that there are actually a barrier to suffer which would be the bit more radical groups to come to power they would be running also a candidate i mean so they're playing the middle ground and they wonder the parliamentary election i mean they are genuinely popular among the electorate ahead well that's true they are very popular i mean it is predominantly muslim thing. there are about ten or twelve million cops so you know that's about ten percent

give or take of the copulation and the rest of the people by and large are muslim and. islam has been the predominant. faith since the conquest of the area in the eighth century. so it's really not a surprise at all that they're very popular and the area has been a problem for centuries i mean the economy has been poor i mean in fact in the eighteenth century you know you small invited napoleon to to help out with the economy so you know the way this is like history repeating itself. ok dorna feingold i mean i mean the thing is is that you know this is a democratic process in play and i mean you know i'll agree with you on the mean if you can wind and why don't you go out in when it looks like the brotherhood has a very good chance of doing and i agree with the below me and then you could have

an enormous amount of responsibility on your hands ok to fix the economy to create jobs i mean in that way it is a gamble. it's true it's true that it is a gamble on the part of the brotherhood i mean egypt's egypt's economy is in dire straits there are. forty percent of egyptians live almost into the as a day a million and a half babies are born in egypt every year. there's a brotherhood have answers to these problems and forget those on the other hand if if if you or i or the brotherhood and we've waited eight decades to seize power i don't think we would like the chance the way ok on i mean it's ok the delish these power i think is going a bit strong here we are talking about an election our way absolutely and one which should never lose sight of the fact that the muslim brotherhood has been fairly elected by the people in parliamentary elections to run the affairs of the state and i think the reason why the muslim brotherhood candidate the shot that seems to

have good chances to win the election is that because he is a multimillionaire he's a financier who has got extremely good grasp on the economy and traditionally islamic parties tend to put the emphasis on charitable work on philanthropy and even a social justice is no substitute for. sorry charity is no substitute for social justice and this this is precisely what charter is offer and he's offering a real economic and social program as an alternative and since his party role in the parliamentary elections he has been able to meet with all sorts of influential people including four foreign officials in passages diplomats and more crucially representatives of international organizations including the international monetary fund and has been able to negotiate a generous learn three g. and he also is very much seen in egypt as the savior of the economy as the engineer

behind the run it's almost project involving a thousand scientists and people from the business industry in general and that's why and i can't stress that enough is enough that the muslim brotherhood and major test will be to sort out the extreme dire economic situation in the country we see in line and new york you think they're after the task. well you know it's a it's a bit of a i disagree completely with that they're up to the task and i don't think that the primary goal is even economic i mean it's basically they want is long except promises and this is been the goal right from the get go i mean if they're not i mean i hope you have a problem with some the do you have a problem with them doing that democratically through an election i mean if this is what the people are usually i will tell you what i am i i think the problem really will be in how they deal with the coptic minority and what you've

already seen is that the economic straits the country is in there's no question about it i mean they're pouring something like eighty percent of their week and you know as or and said the prices are ridiculous they're living on three dollars a day and bread is they live on bread and they're pouring it all so to speak here with me can continue our discussion education politics after our short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt largest political party state. you. want to. if you had to execution dates in believe me oh just came along a chilly execution date isn't enough for anybody to go to more leisure and. you

know more than fifty percent of the people who are actually isn't texas are not. you know you've been known to afterwards oh. this is nice for you know we execute our convicted capital murder we have the highest execution rate in america we're not afraid to do it we do it well this becomes a point where death becomes. our avenue i hope. i will get a letter your dad is going to be executed next week then as it is scary moment for you to know you can loose here one of your parents at the end of a manner of me saying i'd say it's time to go. and i would leave them into this for the best chamber. constipated till after they were dead.

in the. bush. ok. to keep

the. welcome back across the country mind you we're talking about the muslim brotherhood's participation in the presidential election. ok. ok we end of the first part of the program talking about the dire straits of the egyptian economy i mean i think all of us would agree they need a big change or the military's had their hands in the till for so very long backed up by the americans for so long give somebody else a chance i mean that's what it looks like they're asking people to do and i think all of us would be like them or not we jenin we genuinely agree that they are popular in egypt so give them a shot yes very much so and you know we shouldn't forget that we're talking about a muslim majority country so we shouldn't be too surprised to see. he's doing well in that context the muslim brotherhood has also been stigmatized let's not forget

especially in the wake of america's so-called war on terror which effectively put the muslim brotherhood push the muslim brotherhood underground and. led to the party going down and accepted an officially in the political landscape but nonetheless this is as a direct this was as a direct result between the corporation between the readership of mubarak and the u.s. administration. i would urge you to remember. oh no no no no no no reason first or an irony in the let me go to our in first as he asked first go ahead oren. well it's just simply untrue that it was that the brotherhood was pushed underground due to the u.s. war on terror the underdog the brotherhood has been underground for decades going back to the era of the nazi so i mean i'm not quite sure where in the bill is

getting is going these facts little you want to respond to that is specially so especially so yes absolutely i'm saying a sports especially so in. america's war on terror which is largely contributed not just needs him but across the muslim world to stigmatise islamic parties not just in egypt but in the news here in morocco and indeed across the region and contributed to demonize this party and basically kind them as islamic extremists and now we know that the muslim brotherhood is seen as a moderate party and contrary to what the research was saying he's also seen the need to as a bloc in fact to do more radical party which is the some of his party of of new world which is supported by gulf countries especially saudi arabia ok let's if you want to jump in there you said you disagree go ahead. i don't i don't really see

a big difference between the muslim brotherhood and this parties but to get back to it i think oren is absolutely right i mean the brotherhood was burned initially in nineteen forty eight after an assassination attempt. you know there were many brothers who fled egypt and went to saudi arabia and went to kuwait they went to carter and so on so this is not a new thing at all that they've been. would you say a muslim brotherhood of forty fifty years ago it's the same as the muslim brotherhood today in egypt there's no change they haven't evolved and i go ahead founding. the founding principles are exactly the same i mean you know we have charter is actually saying that he supports our tsar and he wants ours are to be involved in the islamization of the world and ours are has a role in gaining control of islamization in egypt and of the

world and he said this just very recently so it's very very good i'm going. to maintain twenty years since we've beginning of the arab spring we've seen islamic parties wanting the democratic process to to work for their people ok to have the same kind of lifestyles and it would be more rich countries in the world and they want to do it at the ballot box why are they being so demonized and that's why i asked the question i mean the muslim brotherhood has been actually quite quiet since the fall of mubarak and only been getting involved in the political process like everybody else. well you know if the brotherhood is seen as a moderate i don't know who's the one doing the seeing here i don't i don't see them as moderate you know they're they may be moderate relative to the seller fees but that's like it's a terrible comparison i mean it's like i wouldn't want either if i want to chip in for you but hard when you have a cancer you have

a problem with the brother is the only islamic party in egypt that recognizes and wants to preserve the peace treaty with israel that's pretty moderate isn't it well even that it spends what hour of the day you ask them in the pens who you ask and it depends who is doing the asking. you know just in january i think it was a brotherhood spokesman told it was a shock allows a london based arabic paper so there's no way we're going to recognize israel period and in the next week the brotherhood that the leader. of the western audience will will respect all of our charities so really they've spoken to him to voices about this and and we'll have to just sort of wait and see what they do rather than rather than rely on what they say you know bill i saw you not shaking your head go right ahead. yes i agree we have to see what they do but in the meantime we can also take into account the party i mean for example they're very much inclusive of christian copts in egypt they're inclusive of women unlike the

salafist party a new for example and it has the backing of the u.s. administration hillary clinton has shown support toward charkha shot or sorry because he thought the muslim brotherhood also has pledged not to put a referendum the peace treaty with israel it has also banned demonstrations in front of the israeli embassy in because the people egyptians were protesting against israel's treatment of the palestinian people for example now of course america will have to convince gulf countries like saudi arabia to accept a candidate who has already been accepted by all the gulf countries like qatar for example so of course let's wait and see what the muslim brotherhood will achieve when it comes to pass but the positive news here is that if. it doesn't

deliver then i'm pretty confident that the egyptians will take to the streets again and real democratically. which in new york where you figured out that that's an interesting scenario right reasonable. well i mean i have to agree that i with or and i don't think there's any. comparison between the muslim brotherhood in. the more conservative sawfish it's really like a piece of pie with one is across the nearly one is the middle and it's all the peace the thing is that if the idea here is to make egypt islamic and. in fact i mean there are people who think that the muslim brotherhood actually wants chaos and once that create chaos because that's what brings more of the faith which is why we're here today did i did wrong answers and they want to

discredit the democratic process as well this was part of the point i was it's going to be one man one vote one time i don't think that this is going to be a democracy it's certainly not going to be a western democracy and why should it be it's what should be western democracy it should be islamic or democracy and it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a western democracy i'm just saying it won't be it's not going to be and i don't think it's going to be democratic at all in any sense of the word it's not going to be the mayor and the regular man participating and as far as peace and justice for the minorities that's ridiculous i mean people are burning churches they're burning whole churches with people alive inside of them and the muslim brotherhood is just there is doing that are they burning churches and yes they are absolutely are they're absolutely are paying the bills. are we going the bill.

i think you know one should bear in mind the. military has been quite instrumental in. clarion divisions. precisely because it doesn't want to lead. and it's reluctant to transfer power to civilian government let alone to an elected president and we've seen throughout the revolution how the army was using sectarian divisions to pitch one against the author or in what do you think i'm i'm not going to ask you to speak for the israeli government i'm asking you your opinion but if the israelis have always preferred to do you would think haters like mubarak i mean they ready for a democratically elected president of egypt. but before i answer that question i'd just like to address something a bill is said earlier and it's a pick on you here but i think you're being

a bit too generous with with your description of the brotherhood as it relates to religious minorities it's true there are one or two cops on their on their party roster the egyptians because i talk to in egypt or all every one of them to a man and to women are petrified of the brotherhood coming to party none of them are voting for the brotherhood so i think we should we should just be a little bit more wary of. the brotherhood and a bit less eager to sort of pounce on every to accept every every statement they make about religious tolerance was like everybody wants to be in the brotherhood no matter what they say can you answer my question or as far as israel is concerned in a democratically elected government of egypt. i'm sorry could you could you repeat the question really is really. more of it been very comfortable in dealing with arab dictators for decades now are they going to be able to deal with democratically lead elected leaders like we'll see in egypt. look i don't think israelis have any most israelis anyway again i'm not

a spokesperson but i don't think most israelis have any illusions that dealing with the brotherhood is going to be particularly pleasant or easy or effective. but i mean israel is in a bind if you know we israel doesn't particularly like you know having to deal with a state as as it sees it but when there are popular elections we saw in the palestinian territories or so i don't egypt. islamists come to power now we've seen it in tunisia we've seen it in iraq oh. it's a real twenty two ok inability very strange muslims vote for islamic parties i don't i can't get my head around why that's a problem go ahead you're the last word. because i don't think it's a problem recall i think you know very long time western democracy have. world that either they have relative stability are. going to have to jump and he will run out of time folks fascinating discussion many thanks to my guest today

in new york london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember.

today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of kenya that. operations are the day. the official tea obligation on the phone the i pod touch from the top story. on the.