clover good evening this is artie moscow i'm kevin oh in our top stories the first u.s. marines reaches straight years america's military moves it on the asia pacific region the challenge china's growing influence. deadly debt burden agreed pensioner shoots him selfe in front of parliament in athens amid a soaring suicide rate and growing financial desperation across the east. and russia warns against arming the syrian rebels with peace efforts underway saying they can topple president assad and it will only lead to come.

next crosstalk examines the democracy drive in egypt and whether it can go hand in hand with the islamist. so. you can. start. to think. low and welcome the crosstown peter lavelle game changer in egypt the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a presidential candidate in the upcoming election has stunned many is a policy and strategy reversal that changes the political calculus in the country is the muslim brotherhood attempting to hijack the revolution or merely trying to preserve and. keep. stirring. cross-talk the muslim brotherhood strategy i'm joined today by lisa lockwood in new

york she's a writer and u.s. based investigative journalist and focusing on the middle east and islam in london we have an ability ramdani she is a journalist an academic who specializes in the middle east and north africa and in tel aviv we go to orange kessler he is middle east affairs correspondent for the jerusalem post all right folks this is crossfire that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it and the bill in london if i go to you first here what do you make of the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a candidate only a week ago two weeks ago they in fact equally denied it they were going to do it and now they are we see the movement slightly fractured it's a big gamble and if they win they have all power. well absolutely it certainly is a dramatic shift from the muslim brotherhood. cryo policy not to fuel the candidate in the presidential race precisely because the accusations directed at the muslim brotherhood for already wielding too much power having the effect of your monopoly

on egyptian state affairs following their overwhelming victory in the parliament but also because they are also in charge overwhelmingly in drafting egypt's new constitution and i think their decision before not to send a candidate for the presidential race was to try and assuage the fears that they were seeking too much power but certainly this decision now to send a panda date for the election is a dramatic a u. turn and it will have not only dramatic consequences for the internal politics of the party the muslim brotherhood but also for egypt as a country because of its it's the largest country in the middle east and also because of its. privileged geostrategic position and there i say will have also consequence is on the direction that the arab spring we're taking more generally in

a really so what do you think about this is this a big gamble on the part of the brotherhood because it was pointed out here i mean go ahead because a lot of people say it's a gamble and it really strikes a third privately i don't think it's a gamble i don't think it's a surprise at all actually i think that this is been a revolution in the planning stage for the last eighty three years and in fact you know they've never made they've never made a secret about the fact or thing wanted complete control and they wanted shari'a law and they wanted islamic law and that's been their foundational precept since ninety. twenty eight it's not really a surprise to me at all so you i don't find you really do you think that this is something you think this is going to be a thing else you think you've been waiting for this for all this time particularly since the fall of the. regime i will go back to that ornon in tel aviv what do you think about the political calculus of the muslim brotherhood you know political

actors anywhere in the world that want to increase and maintain and retain their power whether it's the egyptian army or the muslim brotherhood or you name it i don't know of any party in the world. that doesn't want to hold power. in the case of the army you would rather sort of reap the benefits and second of having its fingers and almost every economic partner in egypt without you know having to take responsibility for the economy but surely that both the army and the brotherhood want to maintain their interest me in saying power should know bill what do you think about that because that means the it's quite obvious the army doesn't the military doesn't want to give up power because he controls mostly of the economy and their privileges and their you know they have a very nice lifestyle they've had it for a long time and they have a very good friend in washington as well i mean the status quo was always suited the military in egypt since the fall of mubarak. very much so i would so i think is agree with assessment that the muslim brotherhood's decision to send

a candidate in in the end is true i would actually call it pragmatic i think there's a simple reason behind the muslim brotherhood's decision and that is to take advantage of what is effectively a historical chance for them to actually real power for the first time in the country's history there have been all sorts of theories behind the reasons why they are standing a candidate including. cynics would say. that there is some secret pact between the muslim brotherhood and indeed the military in an attempt to amend taint the status quo and indeed to engage in a power sharing deal i think you know that if a muslim brotherhood candidate is elected. he will have huge responsibilities to a source how the economy of the country let's not lose sight that it's the major problem that the country is facing and because the muslim brotherhood will then be the only

challenger for the military the only party that will have to hold the military accountable and indeed put it in its place but he will be a crucial test for the quality enormous sorts of fields including politics but also the economy and indeed the social problems of the country i mean if i go back to new york in the model of the brother of yours on brotherhood claims that there are actually a very rich or the subtle it'll be the bit more radical groups to come to power they're going to be running also a candidate so they're playing the middle ground and they wonder the parliamentary election i mean they are genuinely popular among the electorate their head well that's true they are very popular i mean is predominantly muslim. there are about ten or twelve million cops so you know that's about ten percent give or take of the copulation and the rest of the people by and large are muslim and.

islam has been the predominant. faith since the conquest of the area in the eighth century. so it's really not a surprise at all that they're very popular and. the area has been a problem for centuries i mean the economy is poor i mean in fact in the eighteenth century you know. invited napoleon to to help out with the economy so you know the way this is like history repeating itself. ok dorna feingold you mean i mean i mean the thing is is that you know this is a democratic process in play and i mean no and i'll agree with you on i mean if you can wind and why don't you go out in when it looks like the brotherhood has a very good chance of doing and i agree with the below mean then you could have an enormous amount of responsibility on your hands ok just because the economy to

create jobs i mean in that way it is a gamble. it's true it's true that it is a gamble on the part of the brotherhood i mean egypt egypt economy is in dire straits there are. forty percent of egyptians we have almost in two dollars a day there's a million and a half babies are born in egypt every year. there's a brotherhood and i have answers to these problems and to get those on the other hand if if if you or i or the brotherhood and we've waited eight decades to seize power i don't think we would like the chance that the way ok are and i mean is it ok if our i think is going a bit strong here we are talking about an election our way absolutely and one which should never lose sight of the fact that the muslim brotherhood has been fairly elected by the people in parliamentary elections to run the affairs of the state and i think the reason why the muslim brotherhood candidate their shock seems to have good chances to win the election is that because he is

a multimillionaire he's a fine and serious who's got extremely good grasp on the economy and traditionally islamic parties tend to put the emphasis on charitable work on philanthropy and you know social justice is no substitute for. sorry charity is no substitute for social justice and this this is precisely what shutter is offering he's offering a real economic and social program as an alternative and since his party room the parliamentary elections he hasn't been able to meet with all sorts of influential people including for foreign officials in brussels is diplomats and more crucially representatives of international organizations including the international monetary fund and has been able to negotiate a generous learn three and he also is very much seen in egypt as the savior of the economy as the engineer behind the renaissance project involving

a thousand scientists and people from the business industry in general and that's why and i can't stress that's an area that the muslim brotherhood a major test will be to sort out the extreme economic situation in the country recently in new york you think director the cask. well you know it's a it's a bit of a i disagree completely with that they're up to the task and i don't think that the primary goal is even economic i mean it's basically they want is long exit promises and this is been the goal right from the get go i mean if i'm not i mean i have you have a problem with some that do you have a problem with them doing that democratically through an election i mean if this is what the people are usually tell you what i owe i i think the problem really will be in how we deal with the coptic minority and what you've

already seen is that the economic straits the country is in there's no question about it i mean they're courting something like eighty percent of their week and you know as orrin said the prices are ridiculous they're living on three dollars a day and the bread is they live on bread and they're pouring it all so just in here we're going to continue our discussion education politics after our short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt largest political party state. bates in believe me. just having one of the execution date is enough for anybody to go through more leisure. you know more than fifty percent of the people who are

actually in texas are not. like you know live in order for who is writing. this snatch and you know we execute our convicted capital murder we have the highest execution rate in america we're not afraid to do it we do it well this comes up for him and death becomes. our ever new hope. our get a letter your dad is going to be executed next week then isn't he a scary moment for you to know you can loose here want to be appearing at the in a manner of me saying that said it's time to go. and i would lead them into the to the best chamber of. commerce trade him after they were dead.

download the official t. allocation q i phone the i pod touch from the i.q. sounds to. life on the go. see video. on keys mindful of costs and already says feeds now in the palm of your. question on the com. filmmaker. and. director's cut of real life in prison. willow.

can. still. welcome back across primarily to mind you were talking about the muslim brotherhood's participation in the presidential election. look keep you. cool. ok end of the first part of the program talking about the dire straits of the egyptian economy i mean i think all of us would agree they need a big change in the military's had their hands in the till for so very long backed up by the americans for so long give somebody else a chance i mean that's what it looks like they're asking people to do and i think all of us if you like them or not we're gen when we genuinely agree that they are

popular in egypt so give them a shot. yes very much so and you know we shouldn't forget that we're talking about a muslim majority country so we shouldn't be too surprised to see that. he's doing so well in that context the muslim brotherhood has also been stigmatized let's not forget especially in the wake of america's so-called war on terror which effectively put the muslim brotherhood push the muslim brotherhood underground and it led to the carter going back and accepted and officially in the political landscape but nonetheless this is as a director this was as a direct result between the corporation between the leadership of mubarak and the u.s. administration. i would just say in the room. no no no no no no reason first on our screen that you know we're going first is he asked first go

ahead oren well it's just simply untrue that it that it was the brotherhood was pushed underground due to the u.s. war on terror the under the brotherhood has been underground for decades going back today to the era of denial of the last or so i mean i'm not quite sure where in the bill is doing is going the facts. little you want to respond to that especially so especially as absolutely i'm saying it dispersed especially so in america's war on terror which largely contributed not just in egypt but across the muslim world to stigmatise islamic parties not just in egypt but been in morocco and indeed across the region and contributed to demonize this party and basically painting them as islamic extremists and now we know that the muslim brotherhood is seen as a moderate party and contrary to what the leaser were saying please also seen in

egypt as a bloc in fact to the more radical party which is the son of his party of a new world which is supported by gulf countries especially saudi arabia ok richard you want to jump in there you said you disagree go ahead. i don't i don't really see a big difference between the muslim brotherhood and the office parties but to get back to i think oren is absolutely right i mean the brotherhood was burned initially in nine hundred forty eight after an assassination attempt. you know there were many brothers who fled egypt and went to saudi arabia and went to kuwait they went to carter and so on so this is not a new thing at all that they've been. would you say the muslim brotherhood of forty fifty years ago is the same as the muslim brotherhood today in egypt there's no change they haven't evolved and i think we have found a way to have their founding principles are exactly the same i mean you know we

have charter is actually saying that he supports our czar and he wants ours are to be involved in the islamization of the world and ours are has a wall in gaining control of islamization in egypt and of the world and he said this just very recently so. i mean hundred twenty years since we've beginning of the arab spring we've seen islamic parties wanting to democratic process to to work for their people ok to have the same kind of lifestyles and it will be more rich countries in the world and they want to do it at the ballot box why are they being so demonized and that's why i asked the question i mean the muslim brotherhood has been actually quite quiet since the fall of mubarak and only been getting involved in the political process like everybody else. well you know if the brotherhood is seen as

a moderate i don't know who is the one doing the seeing here i don't i don't see them as moderate you know they may be moderate relative to the seller fees but that's like it's a terrible comparison i mean it's like i wouldn't want either if i want to chip in for you but aren't you have the answer to your problems with the brother is the only islamic party in egypt that recognizes and wants to preserve the peace treaty with israel that's pretty moderate isn't it well even that explains what hour of the day you ask them it depends who you ask and it depends who is doing the asking . you know just in january i think it was a brotherhood spokesman told it was a shot of london based arabic paper so there's no way we're going to recognize israel period and then the next week the brotherhood deputy leader told the western audience oh well we'll respect all of our treaties so really they've spoken to in two voices about this. and we'll have to just sort of wait and see what they do rather than rather than rely on what they say you know do i so you're not shaking

your head go right ahead. yes i agree we have to see what they do but in the meantime we can also take into account the party i mean for example they're very much inclusive of christian caught seen egypt there inclusive of women. like the salafist party new for example and it has the backing of the u.s. administration hillary clinton has shown support to work charkha. sorry because he thought the muslim brotherhood also has pledged not to put a referendum the peace treaty with israel it has also banned demonstrations in front of the israeli embassy in because of people egyptians were protesting against israel's treatment of the palestinian people for example now of course america will have to convince the gulf countries like saudi arabia to accept

a candidate who has already been accepted by all the gulf countries like qatar for example so of course let's wait and see what the muslim brotherhood will achieve when it comes to pass but the positive news here is that if. it doesn't deliver then i'm pretty confident that the egyptians will take to the streets again and will democratically. which is a new yorker you think about that that's an interesting scenario and quite reasonable. well i mean i have to agree that i with or and i don't think if there is any. comparison between the muslim brotherhood in. the more conservative saw office it's really like a piece of pie with one is the cross and the other one is the middle and it's all the piece the thing is that. the idea here is to make

egypt's islamic and. in fact i mean there are people who think that the muslim brotherhood actually wants chaos and once that create chaos because that's what brings more of the faith which is why we do it through the democratic process and they want to discredit the democratic process as well this was part of the point i was it's going to be a one man one vote one time i don't think that this is going to be denmark or sea it's certainly not going to be a western democracy and why should it be it's what should be western democracy it should be islamic or democracy. it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a western democracy i'm just saying it won't be it's not going to be and i don't think it's going to be democratic at all in any sense of the word it's not going to be the man and the regular man participating and as far as peace and justice for the minorities that's ridiculous i mean people are burning churches they're burning

whole churches with people alive inside of them and in the brotherhood is just there is doing that are they burning churches and yes they are absolutely are there absolutely are paying the bill and as of right now we are in the bill. our i think you know one should bear in mind that our military has been quite instrumental in. clarion divisions. precisely because it doesn't want to lead. and it's reluctant to transfer politics even in government let him learn to an elected president and we've seen throughout the revolution how the army was are using sectarian divisions to pitch one against the other war and what do you think i'm i'm not going to ask you to speak for the israeli government i'm asking you your opinion but the israelis

have always preferred to deal with dictators like mubarak i mean they ready for a democratically elected president of egypt. but before i answer that question i'd just like to address something the bill is that earlier and i hate to pick on you here but i think you're being a bit too generous with with your description of the brotherhood as it relates to religious minorities it's true there are one or two cops on their on their party roster the egyptian cops i talked to in egypt or every one of them to a man it's a woman are petrified of the brotherhood coming a party none of them are voting for the brotherhood so i think we should we should just be a little bit more wary of. the brotherhood and a bit less eager to sort of pounce on every answer except every every statement they make about religious tolerance well he was like everybody wants the brotherhood no matter what they say can you answer my question or in stories are concerned in a democratically elected government of egypt. i'm sorry could you could you repeat

that as you know he's really. been more of it been very comfortable in dealing with arab dictators for decades now are they going to be able to deal with democratically lead elected leaders like we'll see in egypt. look i don't think israelis have any most israelis anyway again i'm not a spokes person but i don't think most israelis have any illusions that dealing with the brotherhood is going to be particularly pleasant or easy or affective. but i mean israel is in a bind if you know we israel doesn't particularly like you know having to deal with a state as as it sees it but when there are popular elections we saw in the palestinian territories we saw it in egypt. islamists come to power now we've seen it in tunisia we've seen it morocco. it's a real catch twenty two ok inabilities very strange if muslims vote for islamic parties i don't i can't get my head around why that's a problem go ahead you're the last word. because i don't think it's a problem

a. very long time western democracy. world that either they have a relative. or the. would have just been he would run out of time folks fascinating discussion many thanks to my guest today in new york london and in tel aviv and thanks for viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember .

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