is of the earth or find it to find out or in this case the kingdom of it's so will they find it he wanted to find out for more insurgent covered you can turn over to youtube dot com slash art see america see you back here tomorrow. culture is that so much of the finnish music has to find the mark. of the muslim brotherhood decision to presidential candidates feeling down to maybe there's a polish. wealthy british science. market dynamics. find out what's really happening to the global economy with max concert

for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into a report on our t.v. . can you see. the sofa. hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle game changer in egypt the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a presidential candidate in the upcoming election has stunned many is a policy and strategy reversal that changes the political calculus in the country is the muslim brotherhood attempting to hijack the revolution or merely trying to

preserve and. soup kitchen sisters. crossed out the muslim brotherhood strategy i'm joined today by lisa lapin in new york she's a writer and u.s. based. investigative journalist and focusing on the middle east and islam in london we have no bill ramdani she is a journalist an academic who specializes in the middle east and north africa and in tel aviv we go to oren kessler he is middle east affairs correspondent for the jerusalem post all right folks this is crossfire that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it and the bill in london i go to you first here what do you make of the muslim brotherhood's decision to run a candidate only a week ago two weeks ago they in fact equally denied it they were going to do it now they are we see the movement slightly fractured it's a big gamble and if they win they have all power. well that's certainly is a dramatic shift from the muslim brotherhood. prior policy not to feel the candidate

in the presidential race precisely because the accusations directed at the muslim brotherhood already wilting too much power having the effect of your monopoly on egyptian state affairs following their overwhelming victory in the parliament but also because they are also in charge overwhelmingly in drafting egypt's new constitution and i think their decision before not to send a candidate for the presidential race was to try and assuage the fears that they were seeking too much power but certainly this decision now to send a candidate for the election is a dramatic a u. turn and it will have not only dramatic consequences for the internal politics of the party the muslim brotherhood but also for egypt as a country because of its it's the largest country in the middle east and also

because of its. privileged. position and there i say will have also consequences on the direction that the arab spring is taking more generally if we're going to do so what do you think about this is this a big gamble on the part of the brotherhood because the bill is pointed out here i mean go ahead because a lot of people say it's a gamble and it really strikes if you're trying i don't think it's a gamble i don't think it's a surprise at all actually i think that this is in a revolution in the planning stage for the last eighty three years and in fact you know they've never known they've never made a secret about the fact of being wanted complete control and they wanted shari'a law and they wanted islamic law and that's been in their foundational precepts since ninety. twenty eight it's not really a surprise to me at all so you know i don't find so you think that this is being

lame you think this is a good thing else you think you've been waiting for this for all this time particularly since the fall of the. regime i will go back to that ornon in tel aviv what do you think about the political calculus of the muslim brotherhood you know political actors anywhere in the world that want to increase and maintain and retain their power whether it's the egyptian army or the muslim brotherhood or you name it i don't know of any party in the world. doesn't want to hold power. in the case of the army you would rather sort of reap the benefits and second of having its fingers and almost every economic part in egypt without you know having to take responsibility for the economy but surely the both the army and the brotherhood want to maintain their interest in maintaining maintain power bill what do you think about that because that mean the it's quite obvious the army doesn't the military doesn't want to give up power because the controls mostly of the economy and their privileges and their you know they have a very nice lifestyle they've had it for a long time and the have a very good friend in washington as well i mean the status quo was always suited

the military in egypt since the fall of mubarak. well very much so i would slightly disagree with the assessment that the muslim brotherhood's decision to send the candidate in the end is true i would actually call it pragmatic i think there's a simple reason behind the muslim brotherhood's decision and that is to take advantage of what is effectively a historical chance for them to actually wilt power for the first time in the country's history there have been all sorts of theories behind the reasons why they are sending good candidates including cynics i would say. that there is some secret pact between the muslim brotherhood and the military in an attempt to amend tain the status quo and indeed to engage in a power sharing deal i think you know that if a muslim brotherhood candidate is elected. he will have huge responsibilities

to a source how the economy of the country let's not lose sight that it's the major problem that the country's facing and because the muslim brotherhood will then be the only challenger for the military the only party that will have to hold the military accountable and indeed put it in its place that he will be a crucial test for the party in law a sort of fields including politics but also the economy and indeed the social problems of the country i mean if i go back to new york i mean the mother of the brother of yours on brotherhood claims that there are actually a barrier to stifle it would be the more radical group to come to power they're going to be running also a candidate i mean so they can they're playing the middle ground and they won the the the parliamentary election i mean they are genuinely popular among the electorate go ahead well that's true they are very popular i mean it is

predominantly mercenary things. about ten or twelve million cars so you know that's about ten percent give or take of the population and the rest of the people by and large are muslim and. islam has been the predominant. faith since the conquest of the area in the eighth century and so it's really not a surprise at all that they're very popular i mean. the area has been a problem for centuries i mean economy has been poor i mean in fact in the eighteenth century you know you small invited napoleon to to help out with the economy so you know the way this is like history repeating itself. ok corner feingold you mean i mean i mean the thing is is that you know

this is a democratic process in play and i mean you know how agree with you on i mean if you can win then why don't you go out and win and it looks like the brotherhood has a very good chance of doing and i agree with the bill are mean then you can have an enormous amount of responsibility on your hands ok if you fix the economy to create jobs i mean in that way it is a gamble. it's true it's true that it is a gamble on the korean brotherhood i mean egypt egypt economy is in dire straits there are. forty percent egyptians live on the central dollars a day there's a million and a half babies are born in egypt every year. there's a greater who have answers to these problems and forget those on the other hand if it's if you or i or the brotherhood and we've waited eight decades to seize power i don't think we would like the chance that the way ok on i mean it's ok if our i think is going a bit strong here we are talking about an election our way absolutely and one wish should never lose sight of the fact that the muslim brotherhood has been fairly elected by the people in parliamentary elections to run the affairs of the state

and i think the reason why the muslim brotherhood candidate their shop seems to have good chances to win the election is that because he is a multimillionaire his a financier who has got extremely good grasp on the economy and traditionally islamic parties tend to put the emphasis on charitable work on philanthropy and you know social justice is no substitute for. sorry charity is no substitute for social justice and we strip this is precisely what charter is offer and he's offering a real economic and social program as an alternative and since his party role in the parliamentary elections he has been able to meet with all sorts of influential people including for foreign officials. diplomats and more crucially representatives of international organizations including the international monetary

fund and has been able to negotiate a generous learn three and he also is very much seen in egypt as the savior of the economy as the engineer behind the renaissance project involving a thousand scientists and people from the business industry in general and that's why and i can't stress that in a rough but the muslim brotherhood major test will be to sort out the extreme dire economic situation in the country we see in like new york you think the rest of the task. well you know it's a it's a bit of a i disagree completely with that they're up to the task and i don't think that the primary goal is even economic i mean it's basically they want islamic's of promises and then this is been the goal right from the get go i mean if you're not i mean i have known you have a problem with some that you have a problem with them doing that democratically through an election i mean if this is

what the people vote i think usually i don't have to tell you what i owe i i think that the problem really will be highly deal with the coptic minority and what you've already seen is that the economic straits the country is in there's no question about it i mean they're importing something like eighty percent of their we and you know as oren said the prices are ridiculous they're living on three dollars a day and bread is they live on bread and they're importing it all so i'll just be here we're going to continue our discussion of the gyptian politics after our short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt largest political party state. you. want.

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if you. still. want to. welcome back to crossfire i'm fairly come to mind you were talking about

the muslim brotherhood's participation in the presidential election. in egypt. started. ok in the build we ended the first part of the program talking about the dire straits of the egyptian economy i mean i think all of us would agree they need a big change or the military has had their hands in the till for so very long backed up by the americans for so long give somebody else a chance i mean that's what it looks like they're asking people to do and i think all of us if you like them or not with gen when we genuinely agree that they are popular in egypt so give them a shot. yes very much so and you know we shouldn't forget that we're talking about a muslim majority country so we shouldn't be too surprised to see that the islamic altie he's doing well in that context the muslim brotherhood has also been stigmatized let's not forget especially in the wake of america's so-called war on

terror which effectively put the muslim brotherhood push the muslim brotherhood underground and it can lead to the party being banned excepted and officially in the political landscape but nonetheless bound and this is as a director this was as a direct result between the corporation between the dictatorship of mubarak and the u.s. administration. i would as you're seeing there in the room. no no no no no no result first on our screen then you know the knowing first is he asked first go ahead oren well it's just simply untrue that it was the death brotherhood was pushed underground due to the u.s. war on terror the underground the brotherhood has been underground for decades going back to their to the era of the nasser so i mean i'm not quite sure where in the bill is going is going the facts. little you want to respond to that especially

so especially if as absolutely i'm saying it as press especially so in america's war on clara which largely contributed not just in egypt but across the muslim world to stigmatise islamic parties not just in egypt in tunisia in morocco and indeed across the region and contributed to demonize the party and basically paint them as islamic extremists and now we know that the muslim brotherhood is seen as a moderate party and contrary to what police were saying it is also seen in egypt as a blog in fact to the more radical party which is december fifth party of the new or which is supported by gulf countries especially saudi arabia ok let's if you want to jump in there you said you disagree go ahead. i don't i don't really see a big difference between the muslim brotherhood and the softest parties but to get back to i think warren is absolutely right i mean the brotherhood was burned

initially in nine hundred forty eight after an assassination attempt. to you know there were many brothers who fled egypt and went to saudi arabia and went to kuwait they went to carter and so on and so this is not a new thing at all that they've been. would you say that muslim brotherhood of forty fifty years ago is the same as the muslim brotherhood today in egypt there's no change they haven't evolved and i thought we had found a way where the founding principles are exactly the same i mean you know we have charter is actually saying that he supports our laws are and he wants ours are to be involved in the islamization of the world and ours are has a role in gaining control of islamization in egypt and of the

world and he said this just very recently so it's a very very good at. certain moments in twenty years since we beginning of the arab spring we've seen islamic parties wanting the democratic process to to work for their people ok to have the same kind of lifestyles and it would be more rich countries in the world and they want to do it through the ballot box why are they being so demonized and that's why i asked the question i mean the muslim brotherhood has been actually quite quiet since the fall of mubarak and only been getting involved in the political process like everybody else. well you know the brotherhood is seen as an auditor and i don't know who's the one doing the seeing here i don't i don't see them as a moderate you know they may be moderate relative to the salafist but that's like it's a terrible comparison i mean it's like i wouldn't want either if i were an egyptian and so you've been harmed you have no answer your problem with the brotherhood is the only islamic party in egypt that recognizes and wants to preserve the peace

treaty with israel that's pretty moderate isn't it well even that it's plans what hour of the day you ask them it depends who you ask and it's the kinds who is doing the asking. you know just in january i think it was a brotherhood spokesman told it was a shock to london based arabic paper so there's no way we're going to recognize israel period and then the next week the brotherhood. leader told to tell the western audience oh well we'll respect all of our treaties so really they've spoken to him through voices about this and and we'll have to just sort of wait and see what they do rather than rather than rely on what they say you know i saw you not shaking your head go right ahead. yes i agree we have to see to see what they do in the meantime we can also take into account. their party i mean for example they're very much inclusive of christian caught seen egypt inclusive of women a lot like the salafist party

a new for example and it has the backing of the u.s. administration hillary clinton has shown support or toward charkha. story because he thought the muslim brotherhood also has pledged not to put a referendum the peace treaty with israel it has also banned demonstrations in front of the israeli embassy in because of people egyptians were protesting against israel's treatment of the palestinian people for example now of course america will have to convince the gulf countries like saudi arabia to accept a candidate who has already been accepted by all the gulf countries like qatar for example so of course let's wait and see what the muslim brotherhood will achieve when it comes to pass but the positive news here is that if. it doesn't deliver then i'm pretty confident that the egyptians will take to the streets again

and will practically oust him. when you think about that that's an interesting scenario and quite reasonable. well i mean i have to agree that i with or and i don't think there's any good comparison between north and brotherhood in. the more conservative us office it's really like her a piece of pie with one is the cross the nearly one is the middle and it's all of the piece the thing is that. the idea here is to make egypt's islamic and. in fact i mean there are people who think that the muslim brotherhood actually wants chaos and once a create chaos because that's what brings more of the faith in them which is why we're here which are the driving the wrong answers and they want to discredit the democratic process as well this is part of the way was it's going to be one man one

vote one time i don't think that this is going to be a democracy it's certainly not going to be a western democracy and why should it be a. western democracy it should be islamic or democracy and it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a western democracy i'm just saying it won't be it's not going to be and i don't think it's going to be democratic at all in any sense of the word it's not going to be the man the regular man participating and as far as peace and justice for the minorities that's ridiculous i mean people are burning churches they're burning whole churches with people alive inside of them and in the muslim brotherhood is just there is doing that are they burning churches yes they are absolutely are there absolutely are paying the bill and as of right now we are going the bill. i think you know one should bear in mind the. military has been quite instrumental

in. the korean divisions chris because he doesn't want to let go and it's reluctant to transfer. student government let alone to an elected president and we've seen through all of the revolution how the army was. so clear in divisions to pitch one community you can still war and what do you think i'm i'm not going to ask you to speak for the israeli government i'm asking you your opinion but the israelis have always preferred to deal with dictators like mubarak i mean they ready for a democratically elected president of egypt. before i answer that question i'd just like to address something of the listener earlier and i hate to pick on you here but i think you're being a bit too generous with with your description of the brotherhood as it relates religious minorities it's true there are one or two cops on their on their party

roster the egyptians because i talk to in egypt or all every one of them to a man it's a woman are petrified of the brotherhood coming a party none of them are voting for the brotherhood so i think we should we should just be a little bit more wary of. the brotherhood and a bit less eager to sort of pounce on every answer except every every statement they make about religious tolerance it was like everybody wants to be in the brotherhood no matter what they say can you answer my question or in the stories israel is concerned in a democratically elected government of egypt. i'm sorry could you could you repeat that he's really. been more of it been very comfortable in dealing with arab dictators for decades now are they going to be able to deal with democratically lead elected leaders like we'll see in egypt. look i don't think israelis have the most israelis anyway again i'm not a spokes person but i don't think most israelis have any illusions that dealing with the brotherhood is going to be particularly pleasant or easy or effective.

but i mean israel is in a bind if you know we israel doesn't particularly like you know having to deal with their status as it sees it but when there are popular elections we saw in the palestinian territories we saw it in egypt. islam has come to power now we've seen it in tunisia we've seen it in iraq oh. it's a real twenty two ok to feel it's very strange muslims vote for islamic parties i don't i can't get my head around why that's a problem go ahead your thoughts words. because i don't think it's a problem i think you know very long time western democracy have. i'm going to have to jump in here we've run out of time folks fascinating discussion many thanks to my guest today in new york london and in tel aviv and thanks for viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember.

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