if the source material is worth hope's journalism although we. we will it appears a. some real. poem thanks for joining our thirty minutes past the hour on current terror and these are your headlines while scousers piling new sanctions on north korea is not the way forward as the united nations look since of pyongyang is controversial balked at the launch the launch ended in failure as the rocket plummeted into the sea moments after takeoff. you whine and such just send more observers into syria as a draft resolution is laid out before the security council envoy kofi annan says

forces in the country have not yet fully complied with the terms of the east deal as reports emerge of clashes near the turkish border. and the world's most famous whistleblower brings his a new highly anticipated show to r t next tuesday julian assange will be talking to newsmakers and opinion formers some of whom have never appeared on the english language television. syria is certainly on a knife edge right now but as caught across talk examines next other countries are stuck in a state of indecision over what to do. please. liz. the k.k.k. . started. to build.

a low in welcoming rostock on peter lavelle serious eerie silence at least for now at this moment the u.n. sponsored peace plan for syria has gotten mixed reviews what happens next the u.s. nato and its regional allies are still calling for regime change while the so-called opposition in syria is anything but united is this just another lull before a more violent and deadly storms. continue. to cross talk a cease fire in syria i'm joined by joshua landis and norman he is director of the center for middle east studies and associate professor of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma in columbia we have joseph omer he's an adjunct professor at the university of south carolina and in paris we have diana johnston she is an independent political commentator and author of fool's crusade yugoslavia

nato and western delusions all right folks this is crosstown that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to joseph first in colombia we have a cease fire right now there's like i said in the introduction there's mixed reviews of it where do we go from here i mean what if it is the ceasefire accomplished if not just give both sides more time to arm and i'd like to point out to our viewers that there are western capitals talking about a buffer zone right now to give the opposition their rebels if you want a place to retreat and regroup isn't that just fueling on the next stage of this civil war. well first of all the simple word there ceasefire is not complete according to my information at least nine people were killed already today but i don't really believe that the ceasefire will old for too long you know i wrote in my latest article that he might remind us all of this ceasefire the place in another country neighboring to feel a lebanon in seven piece may not be the exact same situation but not too much

different either look i believe that the situation is no real political solution for one very simple reason that there can't be any meeting point between a gene that wants to be in total complete and absolute control and opposition whether you call it so-called opposition or not there is opposition rebels whatever you would call them they do not accept the very legitimacy of these three jeem and the main reason for that is because of the sectarian divide between sunni muslims and alawite and other minorities so just a question of time when all of these will explode maybe tomorrow in the day of prayer maybe afterwards but i don't believe that we are in any time close to the end of all this crisis no actual right josh if i can go to you the west has chosen a side in this conflict is that a good idea and you know and i to put in remind our viewers that we have iraq we have afghanistan we have libya eccentrics cetera again the west has decided to

choose a side it's giving one quote non-lethal aid right now that's a slippery slope is this a good idea well it's quite clear that the on mission and most western governments are are working at cross purposes. the west has made no secret of their desire to see this regime overthrown and to have a different government in syria one that would be allied with saudi arabia united states make peace with israel for sake. hamas and iran. so that's you know that's what they're working for obviously russia and china have very different views they want to see this regime. five they want stability in the region and a long time ally in syria to persist in in the region but i don't see i agree with the your first commentators that this is unlikely to hold for long war how you and the head of the syrian opposition has called for big bigger

demonstrations this friday the opposition sees this as an opportunity to push for a cochlear square moment if the military won't shoot on them and they can demonstrate that they have the popular power the government of course wants un observers in and is hoping that they can use this to blame the opposition for creating the violence in syria but but these two sides have fundamental disagreements that i think is really to send more than other sides here diane if i go to you in paris that joshua gave the wish list for the west and i'm looking at the title of your book a western delusions i mean is it delusional that the u.s. and its allies can get all the things that joshua just mentioned because it seems like that's it's like a fairy tale. well it's hard to know what they really want because what they have achieved in afghanistan and iraq and now in libya is pretty much chaos and yet they go on saying

that they want democracy and this and that and the other. and you know some people can can really wonder if that's a delusion or whether chaos is what some people really want in order to weaken all of the countries in the area in preparation for an attack say on iran. is so so you know you do what they say they want and how they behave really in quite serious contradiction ok just a very ample evidence that assad is popular with some groups who are groups in syria and that's not going to change and considering allegations of atrocities by the quote unquote opposition or oppositions or rebels whatever you want to call them i mean we've the specter of ethnic cleansing on the horizon. well you have an

ethic problem there in syria sectarian problem there is no question about it i don't know how you come to the conclusion that assad is popular with the popular if you look at what is happening in syria you see something very simple i mean all this of course it's not simple experimental but the alawite area is very peaceful that through syria is very peaceful the christian suburbs of damascus but tomorrow rather serenely poor a very peaceful day in israeli area around home santa maria is very full military remain here and do it sherry remains intact in the military remains entirely let me let me tell you about i hear about i'll tell you about the military in a minute let me just finish the point please and the smiley enclave around the homes even go home sees the blood being under the pressure of the regime this is my area including salome a very peaceful that is to say that they're minorities that were around the region from the night in the sixty's seventy's onward are still fairly there can be understood there is a reason for the date that the military is divided basically what is being used now

always the brute force of valor white community by and large most of the sunni so-called units are not being used that i can give you names of divisions and all that let's not bore our own many of yours is all history to the parents the fact of the matter is that yes you are right the tragedy conclusion of all this is that if there will not be some kind of transition of power from the current regime to some kind of another regime in a peaceful way we tried out very much yes we are going to see violence in syria and it will be worth anything that we have seen until now this is very unfortunate very tragic it already acted in syria in the past it appen in lebanon it happened in iraq on occasions it may very well as been in syria and i would argue just by finishing this point already but i mean there is that for the whole point in the current situation will make this bloody ready just. for

a second i promise once they got really prolonging the current situation we make violence big here intervention in one kind of in that they're now cool you was the level of violence that i can probably take only well i don't know joshua if i could go to just way in one or maybe only a whole month i think you could make the same argument but the other side they continued outside intervention will prolong this and make it even bloodier i mean seriously ok like i said in the beginning of the programming you're giving nonlethal aid to these people whoever these people are they don't seem to be jeffersonian the democrats to me and you're just going to make the conflict more internationalized it's going over the border right now i mean this is going down the same path we've done for the last ten years i mean is there a learning curve here but i think you're right international adventure intervention is not likely to stop it's not likely to stop the violence. the serious problem is that it does not have

a strong sense of national community the opposition as this is fragmented a minority rules we are going to see that minority fall i believe in the next several years the minority is that rule of lebannon fell the minority that ruled iraq the sunnis fell and the minority in israel and in palestine was able to make itself into a majority of the jews but in every one of those countries the opposition are still fighting the sunnis are still fighting to get back in iraq the palestinians are still fighting for their share of palestine and the different communities in lebanon are in a very hostile sort of come to the end you will but this for foreigners to step in and think they can nation build in syria and to create a strong sense of national unity is i think foolish we've discovered that in in in afghanistan in iraq america did not have the answers

a leader of syria is going to have to emerge out of this struggle if we look at all the great nation building leaders of the middle east ataturk ben-gurion and israel abdulaziz and so did in saudi arabia they spent decades fighting to unify their country stadium merged as heroes on the battlefield they did not have the country given to them by foreign powers ok and then point hummock a just want you to let me jump in larry man that would be in the last word before we go to the break go ahead diana. well yes this is the you know democracy is something that has only existed in the west for a couple of hundred years we act as if it was the eternal of the energy of of the west which it hasn't been i mean we've had kings etc etc it's about two hundred years of democracy and now our democracy shows signs of decadence in certain cases and now we want to force democracy on the rest of the world when if that is

a result of a proper process which results in a sense of trust where everybody agrees to play by the rules because nobody's afraid of anybody else that is not the case in syria and that's not the case in a lot of the world and for us to go in saying we're going to bring democracy is total fantasy is as far as i'm concerned and it's certainly true that interference only makes things worse than unplanned is doing what they should be doing what the international community which the us tends to adopt for itself when in fact it's a minority in the world. is is doing what it should do with annan trying to mediate and to to find a more or less. peaceful solution i mean that but at least keep the violence down a bit and the united states is doing just the opposite leaving politicians are going to be gentle and what are you going to wear short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion of the cease fire in syria state.

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to. welcome back to crossfire i'm going to go to imagine we're talking about the un brokered truce in syria. ok just a bit before we move on to the international aspects of what's going on the cease fire in syria you said you wanted to during the break you want to talk about the intervention in one form or another we had joshua and diane really dismissing it would you could you have a different position go right ahead. you know i would like to clarify what i meant i mean there are all kinds of interventions what i'm speaking about at these stages and i'm sure to join. me i mean the carnage in syria because you're talking

about the. people i mean that i have been what we are and. disappeared with and if the idea is to stop the violence. something is to be done in order to stop it because the current situation is such that it will continue endlessly and i believe that and i agree with joshua about it is that a gene is going to disappear it's a method of finance or able to use and then the bloodshed could be cutthroat thinking cataclysmic in order to prevent that there should be some kind of a transitional situation taught by the superpower for that matter russia should play a very significant role i would say that something can be done about it and should be done about that another quickly because if not the violence will continue it anyway and then when the region will be down then we should see a real eruption of violence that we have never seen before in the middle east kate

joshua i mean i can i could kind if you damned if you do damned if you don't so situation i mean what we've seen over the last few months is that you know a restart of western capitals would somebody bomb syria so i can sleep well at night it gets down to a moral issue too because we are watching violence going on in syria because we do anything to make it better if we have an outside intervention it could make it far far worse and i think that's what the real international community out of western capitals are thinking. yes i don't think they can make it better you know america believes that it can it can somehow create nation states in this region and we haven't been able to do that and in the first month and a half after we intervened in iraq. over ten thousand iraqis were dead then the death rate went up once the regime was destroyed civil war broke out that could very well be the be the case in syria that's why no foreign power wants to get involved in syria they talk but they're not doing y.

because once this regime falls there are fifty fifty militias in syria will they all get along and agree on one form of government out for they may very well fight each other there needs to be an alternative government and an alternative force to step in once this regime falls that force is not there today if america or turkey or saudi arabia or nato went in and bombed this regime like it did in the in libya you are going to get a civil war and the death rate is going to go up not down that's what happened in iraq and that's what unfortunately is happening in other places now what is true of what is i think now it's. going right but it's ten thousand and i hear what is that going to get i. you know our leadership there clearly that everyone already knows america more it goes all the more approaches it would be ok diana john jump in go ahead but it has to emerge a lot of zone where yes i am i just want to mention the fact that although we're

talking about syria this situation does not only. concern syria and what is happening in syria there's also the the the world there's also the fact that the united states by its very aggressive. posture the i'm talking about the administration not american people who i don't think have the same views is in fact being extremely aggressive in denying diplomacy denying the state sovereignty the sovereignty of states and is running into conflict with russia that is extremely dangerous not just for i mean you know there's others of us at stake there is there's the whole world is this crisis escalates into world war it will kill a lot more people than even exist in syria i'm sorry but you know this this is an

extremely dangerous situation just and kathy and i is trying to calm it down and i think that the united states is very irresponsible in not really supporting what coffee and is doing because they have not been supporting it they have been saying all of the work at all the work of all work and then they accept prize that it doesn't work and they are doing everything to sabotage an international. company buys which has had some response from the syrian government they have promised reforms they you there you should be pushing him toward the reforms and says nicole they're not going to do it they're not going to do it just if i go to your. dan is bringing up an interesting point is what i wanted to bring up in this part of the program is the international effect here i'm not convinced there are many people in western capitals who care about the nature of democracy in syria or reform in syria i'm sorry i'm just not convinced of it given the past but it's

about iran isn't it and it's as if they see that syria if you can get take syria down one way or another it exposes the weaknesses of iran that's a very cynical foreign policy but there's in between the lines that's what it seems like to me go ahead. well first of all it's true that if the syrian regime or other when it falls it will weaken iran it will weaken hizbullah in lebanon it is already having an effect by the way on the behavior of hamas which dropped out of the mask with out of their own will and changing their behavior in gaza it is to some extent but look here is the problem with all that logic the civil war in syria didn't start to buy any kind of western instigation it started by the syrian people that is to say it is not something that started by foreign instigation not down there it comes not at their ex not the israelis for god's sake it's started by the syrian people so this is a given situation now and what i said before and i will repeat it now it's not

about democracy it's not about nation building you never heard these words from me i agree completely with joshua landis that can be nation building from the outside in syria what i am saying is that if we are concerned as human beings with the level of violence in syria today what we need to do is to stop it and the only way to stop it right now would be to make sure that the syrian regime understand that it cannot slaughter its own people and it can be done in a way which is not going big syria from the outside there are all kinds of other scenarios and i would also say one word today on there is not going to be a world war over syria with all due respect all these scare tactics and you know feel mongering. find another knows very well find out if there are sure to see this is what about if you really are but nonetheless a way for you in which both the u.s. and russia. ok josh when i get to go back to something you said earlier is that you know you know all of the different possibilities the outcomes here and none of the

outcomes that we ever predicted in iraq afghanistan and libya accept or have ever come to fruition i mean why or our western capitals and politicians you know mccain and lieberman you know so gung ho on a place that we have very little knowledge we expert knowledge and which way you could go because we even have opposition groups committing atrocities we have religious fundamentalists there as well i mean are these the right people we want to be supporting. well unfortunately that's there's a lot of domestic american politics coming into it and that's why they're taking the position that they are but but the. unfortunately syria has become internationalized it did start i agree with joseph it started as a domestic squabble and now it's become internationalized because china and russia both are looking at syria as a bridge had to iran and if the west is able to change the government in syria taking down this key power in the shiite crescent that ties his the law through

iraq to iran then iran is likely to be next and already the west has put increasingly severe sanctions on iran china gets twenty percent of its. of its energy from iran and if the price of energy goes goes up and it loses its investments in iran it'll be a big blow for china russia as well as look to iran as a partner if russia loses syria and loses a seaport and loses a front row seat on the arab israeli conflict which was key in two thousand and eight in fighting in georgia because russia could threaten to give arms to syria and and israel which was supplying georgia with arms immediately got frightened and said ok we won't supply any more arms to georgia so russia was able to use its position in syria in order to gain a big advantage internationally to i does not want to lose i actually agree with a lot with your team but i think to die and you're going to say one thing i want to

bring up one i want to bring up our more than a please i want to bring up before we go on is that there's international law its stake here and you know we have western capitals that say they support international law and they have flaunted it for over a decade now when it comes to this part of the world this is another issue of the international real international community the majority of people are looking at because this is what joshua had to say who's going to be next you know what scenario to take down another regime outside of international and i think we all need to remember that diana go ahead. well yes i am of course i agree with that but i want to come back because this business about iran i mean. the first almost says says that we won't have world war over syria no but we might have it over iran and you see exactly what what professor landis correctly said is that this is leading toward iran and let's face it the fact is that israel and its of

very powerful friends in the united states are very pushing pushing pushing with some resistance i hope in the united states florida war with iran to protect israel and here's something i really want to say because. the defense fact is that the whole threat of iran has been hugely exaggerated and the real reason that israel is so upset about iran was said by ephram stay in two thousand and six and has been repeated by others a danger isn't that iran would attack israel but the fact if if if it is iran had nuclear weapons it might frighten israelis into leaving israel and israel would lose population and it would destroy the zionist dream personally activity and i would have his eye on the story it was sitting in perry's. great dress of diallo we know you respect it's not for your security very very feel this one it's not for your sitting in paris telling people where least of all to be afraid of

a lot when the president of your i'll say they want to have for the israelis to be telling me what to do go together so a predator not. not all k. ok you never got any new start on your head to go for good i wish you would never have it but look i want i don't think you have a little on your head israel has all the signs of missiles israel is another player in the region we know who you want to oh ok i know a little real frankly not the discussion let's get back to the facility a situation are really really was the same discussion as always we do this topic many thanks to my guest today and norman colombia and in paris and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to be a next time and remember prost awful. well

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