and pm eastern. question is that so much of an oldish huge decision on the market can the u.s. and its allies put a stop to the downward diplomatic spiral with iran and seek ways out of the current deadlock more talks or. live. in the still. below and welcome across the computer without locking away from the brain can the

u.s. and its allies put a stop to the downward diplomatic spiral with iran and seek ways out of the current gadd lot more talks are scheduled next month in baghdad the us has called the latest talks a positive first step and the europeans have described it as constructive and promising what is different this time around and is war still an option. to kick. start. to cross talk in twists and turns of us iranian relations i'm joined by army sorry in washington he is a writer for commentary magazine also in washington we have jamie abdo she is director of the around program at the middle east institute in washington and in beirut we go to mohammad marandi he is professor at the university of toronto right crosstalk rosen if i mean you guys can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage and jenny in washington if i go to you first. there's been some good sounds coming out of the latest rounds of talks what's different this time and what

are the major stakes on both sides because we've seen this year in and year out and we've never got any kind of resolution it not a fact we just have more and more sanctions and more and more talk of war against iran by israel and by the united states and its allies what's different this time. what's different this time is the political environment you know as we saw from these talks there was no concrete results really i mean we're still at the status quo but president obama achieved what he wanted to achieve which was to make sure that the tension isn't escalating i mean the last thing that he wants is any sort of possible military confrontation before the election and what the iranians got is they got they they're now able to buy time until baghdad if not after baghdad and so i think and the europeans as well so i think that everyone at this point aside from the israelis were trying to buy time and this is why i think we saw prime

minister netanyahu voice very his dismay and he said that iran as he put it got freebies because in his view they got a pass and so and i think that that's a fair characterization of what happened before we get across i'm going out of me here's the other side professor marandi in beirut just kicking the can down the road is this is what especially what we just heard. all that's possibly the case it depends really on the west iranians from the very start have said that they want to pursue their rights as a sovereign country within the framework of the n.p.t. they never wanted to go a step further than then p.t. nor will they accept anything less as we all know the i say this by being heavily biased towards the west their borders dominated by western powers it's not a democratic primary then you had a guy a is definitely in the pocket of the united states that we can make stark

amounts of clearly revealed but despite that they have never found any evidence whatsoever that iran's nuclear program is anything but peaceful and the recent reports it was severely flawed as many nuclear inspectors former inspectors have pointed out but if western countries are willing to accept iran's rights as an independent country then i think the issue will and can be resolved ok armory where you think about all this here a lot of people will say is that the iranians are coming to the new good many say with western media saying you know indians are coming to the negotiating table with their tail between their legs because the sanctions are finally biting do you buy that. sanctions are biting i don't know if the iranians are coming to the table with their tails between their legs certainly what we just heard from the professor would indicate the opposite that the rain ians are insisting on the same thing they've always insisted and that's the reason why if i can correct jenny

a little bit it's not the case that everybody got what the what they wanted except the israelis the saudis for instance let their media off the leash over the weekend including one notable editorial that glass did the obama administration and president obama specifically for overwhelming naivete and the reason that they are freaked out is the same reason that everybody else is freaked out which is that it's not true that the i.a.e.a. has never found evidence of any rain weapons program the i.a.e.a. has identified ongoing enrichment at the conference so which can't be done which is it has no purpose except weaponization that i have and that i've identified high explosive tests at parchin which are designed to test nuclear warheads that have identified the blueprints for missiles and for parts that can only be related to a nuclear program which is why everybody is in the region is freaked out it might be true although i don't think it is that the iranians and the europeans are being genuine when they say that they believe that progress is being made the americans

for instance who were against the location of the talks and turkey and in fact got blasted even by us media for pretending otherwise but even if that's the case it's undeniable that the region is freaked out and that the region thinks that the cops were a failure. that's an interesting thing and i mean are talks going to go anywhere i mean as i started out you know is this just kicking the can down the road because it looks like you know both sides can get something out of it what is the level of trust between the sides here. well i think that there is this the level of trust hasn't really increased since the last round which was a year and a half ago approximately but i think that you know one issue that i think there was an interesting article published in the wall street journal which talked about all the issues that were discussed in istanbul and i think that if that whether the talks fail or not in baghdad is going to depend upon or whether i should say

a concrete result will develop will depend upon for example if the issue of uranium enrichment is discussed and what both parties can agree to be the level of enrichment. uranium mines are are now enriching at twenty percent this is something that the five plus one said they would never agree to and we have seen over time that the iranian government has moved the bar i mean if you look at what the west said they would not accept a year and a half ago. to years ago iran has already created what we could call facts on the ground so they've already moved the gaar beyond what the west said initially it was and it was not willing to accept and i think that that has been the iranian strategy all along so now it we're going to see in baghdad if the west can stick to its guns and say ok we never agree but you would could richard twenty percent is there a compromise and i think that that's going to be one of the key issues that's going to determine a if there is any real result to come from the meeting and b.

if either if the parties are actually going to reach some sort of compromise vision money in the room what do you think about that because it seems like you know success is only determined by what united states wants and its allies and i would be ram once. yes i mean there are a number of issues that i would like to point out in their lives the first of all the united states nor its western allies are in a position to dictate terms to iran iran is an independent sovereign country and it will pursue its rights within the framework of international law iran is not so you're a or is or a jordan or some other client regime of the united states they will stand firm and they will take it will pursue its rights but with regards to what i said earlier i repeat it's obvious that there's never been any evidence whatsoever that iraq's nuclear program is ever been anything but peaceful and i'll decide one example that was stated before and that is the four do plants in your column before do plant was

only built to produce enrich uranium because of the constant threat of attack on iranian installations in other words since then the town's installations were being threatened by the israelis in the americans illegally and in you know these that this is a form of terrorism to constantly threaten the country they built the four do plan to protect the people who work there because they're after all of their after all human beings they have families and therefore to plant is under i.a.e.a. supervision it has cameras there that work twenty four hours a day seven days a week and the permanent in scrappers of the i.a.e.a. can visit the ford plant regularly another point that i'd like to make is that the iranians from the very start they didn't even want to produce uranium twenty percent they wanted to import it from abroad and western countries were trying to use this as a tool to put pressure on iran by preventing iran from having the fuel iranians

needed the fuel for the test run reactor for cancer patients they produce medical isotopes there so what america what the western powers are basically doing was what they were using cancer patients as hostage. the iranians after the test run declaration where the united states before the declaration itself had accepted according to obama's letter to the brazilian president he accepted the framework of what was actually a will ultimately scientists in the one declaration immediately afterwards he got to win one for new sanctions so the u.s. has lost credibility the united states president is discredited and the iranians only then produce enrich uranium at twenty percent and are now putting in fuel into the tehran reactor so the cancer patients could survive no matter what you think about that it sounds pretty peaceful there but we have plenty of people in western media and western capitals that want war ok i mean we keep hearing that this is the last chance the last chance before a war this is what you even you know even have that have made mistakes go right

ahead that's why you're on the program my friend going to correct you i don't i don't think that i don't think that it's fair to characterize the western nation the western capitals as dragged into war in fact if there's a criticism of them it's that for instance in the face. to now to i.a.e.a. reports identifying weaponization work in iran they've gone out of their way to dismiss those and to find other explanations in the same way that the professor is doing in lebanon and i don't think that it's fair to characterize contre the rest of the international community's consensus the fordo facility as being merely peaceful in fact the kind of enrichment activity that it's designed to do and capable of doing goes well beyond the need for medical isotopes but even if it was true it wouldn't explain all of the other every all of the other evidence of weapon ization high explosive words playing around with neutron igniters playing around with getting caught with blueprints that are specific to nuclear work you walk into

a architectural office and you see blueprints for a building and you see them playing around with parts for a building and you see them courting the materials outside the window to create a building and then you turn around and. you say are you building the building and they're like no we're just playing around with these in case we want to build a building it's not credible they're devoting a lot of time and frankly i think suffering a lot of sanctions any of us go geneve go ahead jump in. i'm very raises a central point which is. i mean mr marandi is not being all that forthcoming i mean the iranians already know you guys know we're going to go to what were you there anybody will have a chance to react to everyone after our short break we'll continue our discussion on the latest the ram talks today are. you. still.

want. to. if. gave. him by.

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and. welcome back to crossfire computer all about your mind you were talking about the west. latest. story. because anyone in washington you said you disagreed with professor marandi in the room i'd like to give you a chance to say that your disagreement is what i'd like professor marandi to respond so go right ahead ok i think that the central point that henri is raising

is what really you know president obama has been talking about all these months which is that our ronit is capable of what can a zation ok the reason that the you not with the sort of explanation the united states has given for it which is different from the israeli position and the plane upon which they disagree is the israelis believe that now that they are capable of weaponize ing that's the reason to stop iran the united states says yes they're capable of weaponize and but they haven't made the political decision to create a nuclear bomb so i think that what preference or marandi is not telling us is is is that yes at the moment perhaps the program is being used for peaceful purposes but that doesn't mean that there isn't the potential there to weaponize and that's actually omri central point which is that obviously if you have all the materials

to build the building but you just are telling people you're not building a building that may be true but that doesn't mean that ultimately that's not your intention and so i think that that's where the united states and the israelis differ i was just in israel about a month ago that's the way it was explained to me and so i think that we have to be clear here about what iran is doing at the moment and what its potential is if you'd prefer would you like to react to that. well again a couple of things one is. some of the things that. one of the guests was saying that accusations leveled that iran are basically based upon a single laptop suppose of laptop that the americans claim that they discovered that belonged to iran and they say that all this evidence is inside that laptop this was many years ago by the way and one computer file and that laptop the iranian said in response to the american accusations all these accusations that have been leveled against iran. can be resolved why don't they why doesn't the

united states hand over the large part to the i.a.e.a. and have them give it to computer experts to see if it's authentic the americans have refused and that is it's obvious why they refuse because it's a fraud the laptop is full of inconsistent claims and they refuse to give it because they know that if computer experts look at it byte by byte they'll figure out that this was fabricated by western powers with the israelis with regards to iran having the capacity or the capability to build a nuclear weapon well then why doesn't the united states bomb brazil why isn't it japan all these countries because all of these countries therefore based upon this calculation have the capacity that's not really early in the countries are in iran i mean that's not really a valid argument he's cantered her iran or iran is iran insult and the united states oh and in fact you can because iran is an independent sovereign country in

fact contrary to the claim made earlier that the international community is united on iran it is not a nonaligned movement which consists of three sets of the country of the world supporting iran but in the west the nonaligned movement in other words the majority of the world tonight are not considered as the international community the international community as well as our western countries they represent us and they're the ones who make the decisions. in their eyes the riots are not going to accept that the iranians are working with the frame within the framework of the of international law and they will continue to do so those countries that are not pursue a working within the framework of international law are those countries that are threatening iran with a military attack which is barbaric those countries which have placed an embargo on the iranian central bank in order to prevent iran from even importing rice that is barbaric that is inhuman those countries that are forcing third countries from from not purchasing iranian oil they want to destroy the iranian economy theoretically

they've been on able to do so but it shows that western on their randy here who are behaving in a manner mr marandi if iran some government is as civilized and legitimate as you claim then why do you have a president that at least your government claims was democratically elected who continues to threaten countries around the world particularly israel i mean i learned something very important when i was in israel when she seems of ways well i never really believed and i think he went on for about five minutes. president ahmadinejad has repeatedly since he was elected threatened to wipe israel off the map now i'm not saying i'm not here to say this is a good thing or bad but if you if you are trying to claim that your government is civilized then how do you explain the rhetoric that's been coming from president ahmadinejad's mouth since two thousand and five. and you can react to that really

quickly maybe go ahead real quick. sure it's obvious i mean if you need some leverage as it's two against one of the programs with the professor has to defend himself that's only fair go ahead professor maroney and then i'll go to the iranian president who i didn't vote for and i do not have anything to do with never said that he will attack or destroy israel he said israel must cease to exist as a political entity and the willful mistranslation in the west of what he said is clear to all he said basically that this has always been iranian policy that israel as an apartheid state must cease to exist just as apartheid south africa cease to exist nothing more and nothing less he believes the palestinians have the reins when the reins can't win there. i'm sorry muslims must be able to live together are tied ok are you going to gradually reduce your own state israel and that's what.

that's what they mean when they call israel or to bomb states that israel must cease to exist that simple i mean after anything when the iranian state whoever said there are no i want a world of good in the world in one day in a world of google i would advise you to tell viewers of this program that the iranians have not refer to israel as a one bomb and two bombs they can also you know you can only hear that come on your show you want to do is nonsense on google all right jenny for me go back to your no no no here come on you guys this is getting rained let's go back to the topic of the program geneva time go back to you in washington do you think that the west has been asking for too many preconditions in dealing with iran and its nuclear program yes i think that. that there have been preconditions and there has been an attitude by the west that iran needs to do x. y. or z. or there won't be negotiations and i think that this is why the negotiations have

not progressed and let me say also that i wrote extensively about the tehran declaration this is the declaration that mr marandi referred to earlier that was brokered between brazil and turkey and i agree it was a huge mistake for the united states to go for sanctions and not try to work within the framework of this agreement because at that time this allowed iran to say faced it could have been a way to open negotiations but i'd like to also be referred to and return to another point which is that if one how many shots of me were president today of iran we wouldn't be having this conversation and there would be a threat of war there wouldn't be so you know the iranian government has to be accountable for its rhetoric you know when when mohamed haha to me who was a president a reformist president trying to improve relations with the west trying to improve relations with countries around the world i lived in iran during his presidency

there was a completely different atmosphere and attitude toward iran so you can't i mean you have to acknowledge that the government's rhetoric and its behavior is somewhat responsible for the reaction by western states ok i mean if i go to you i mean the next set of talks are going to be in baghdad which i think is kind of really is very interesting that we have to get moving on here i think is very interesting that the night the talks will be in baghdad because that's basically turned into a rainy and satellites after the mess the united states and its allies have created there i mean the irony of it all i mean you have baghdad that is you know the actually genuflect to iran because well now they don't have the same kind of differences that they had before i mean this is again you know western media likes to show that iran is really struggling but actually it's really its influence in the region is quite substantial and the americans have made that possible because of its ill fated war in iraq. well i mean i know we have discussed this point before on this program and i'm not sure that it's directly relevant to the question

of the talks in baghdad i don't think that iranian soft power as you know i don't think iranian soft power is as extensive as you believe it is i think that they're losing allies more quickly than they're gaining them and i think that they're fighting the hell out of a region in which they need to avoid alienating powerful neighbors but even if that wasn't true i agree with you that the u.s. wants top of the u.s. and its allies arguably expect the tocsin back view the talks in baghdad with even greater hesitation when they view them in turkey precisely because of those locales and part ways with geneva on the question of the degree to which iran has ever been amenable to engagement even to a grand bargain it seems that even during the carter years even during the years when there was talk of a so-called dialogue of civilizations there were elements from the supreme leader on down that would have prevented it and did prevented whenever it had a chance of success and i think the reason for that is indicated by iran's behavior which is the grand these behaviors they were rapidly running on or were rather

rapidly running out of time for summer and it sounds like you know you know the west could engage the soviet union it could engage communist china but you know something's wrong with iran that's what you keep hearing you know you can't negotiate with the iranians but how do you react to that because that's what we hear all the time i think it's because that's because it's because basically the iranians are not going to go down on their knees and the west is not used to that and in fact ironically contrary to what contrary to what your other guest was saying you ron is gaining allies and what you see right now is that many countries are now beginning to break away from the west and you see that for example in the formation of the brics but also i want to go back to what was said about president khatami during president and his era when the united states attacked afghanistan and the iranians condemned what happened in new york and they actually help the. united states get rid of their and the taliban in afghanistan immediately

afterwards the united states called iran an axis of evil and i would also like to remind you that the person who actually restarted the iranian nuclear program at the end of his term in office was president hard to me and the reason why he did it was because he run halted its nuclear program for two years and it allowed intrusive inspections through the additional protocol there in the summer and i am sure it will be all right out of time fascinating discussion we go on for another hour for sure many thanks to my guest today in washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember roster of .

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