why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy cars report on r.g.p. . back there watching r t live from moscow a reminder of the top stories voices of concern over civil violence scream out in bahrain as loud as the formula one cars due to race around its track but there is still left on heard by those quick to buy into the affairs of libya and syria. the i.m.f. moves to quarantine a flammable euro zone from the global economy as e.u. politicians pounce on popular anti-union sentiment. and china's trying its luck in getting a slice of the arctic energy paez its premier wen jiabao embarks on a tour of europe. as a trial of norwegian mass killer anders breivik currently underway das law has an

admittedly bra bad grade mammaries from last year shocking attack but how the crucial lessons been learned ask your labelling has crossed up that's up next on our team. kicking. the can. blow in welcome across town futile adult insane or murderous right wing fanatics this is what a norwegian court must determine in the wake of last year's massacre of seventy seven people and his bravery clearly holds extremist ideas and is a narcissist but when one strips away his extremism much of what he has to say can be found in conservative media all through the western world when it comes to multiculturalism what is really on trial here. can. start. to

cross out the case in norway i'm joined by rachel martin in paris she's a political communications strategist and sydney catered columnist in oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor of political theories that oxford brookes university and in manchester we have mohammed sadiq he is the chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation all right folks this was crossed i mean as you can jump in anytime you want roger i want to go to you first before we get to before the program started you asked if we were going to talk about if the man on trial in norway is insane or not how would you describe that because and looking at the trial i think it's really spooky looking at this trial because he seems to be out worldly a very normal mild mannered person and he has he's a warrior he's admitted to this really ugly mass of crime and he still sits there like you could be sitting next to him in a bus. well i think what we're witnessing on minors is thanks to the

wonders of television is the state of mind of a fanatic a fanatical racist in this case could be a fanatical anything really i think a fanatic creates a sort of psychosis for him self which is very different from normal forms of insanity he has created an imaginary universe which is divided into good and evil is called a manichean worldview only he puts himself cumbia she is well into the role of a cosmic warrior fighting evil and in that role he or she feels beyond good and evil and feels entitled to do things which he or she knows in normal morality are regarded as as evil or insane but they have the confidence to know that they represent some higher truth so what you're seeing is the cold fanaticism which explains also terrible events in the twentieth century and under now answers and all stalin as a more maoism or cold pot fanaticism though it's

a form of insanity is a very very special form which allows for somebody to behave very rationally and very strategically coherent way in a way which is not consistent with normal types of insanity came home and in listening to what he had to say what he did was horrendous but what he has had to say you hear out in other quarters of europe all over the place in the united states too i mean this is what really bothers me about this trial is that he's not alone wolfy he's a lone wolf and what he did he's not a lone wolf and what he thinks. but he shares the same ideology that the far right do share here in europe and cost the united states which is inherent hatred put islam and muslims which i believe is misplaced this is a vial mine he took inspiration from the far right fascist ideology and i'm he has killed many people in an indiscriminate way and he can sit in court and try to justify his actions as if he's on his one man crusade to force muslims out of

europe like i said before muslims are part of the d.n.a. of european society we are passionate europeans we want to live in this continent in peace full coexistence but we must be allowed to carry out our faith according to our own scriptures and i live in peaceful coexistence and what this demonstrates to you very clearly is that there is a rise of the far right across europe and that's deeply worrying for many people and sadly some mainstream politicians like presence of causey indifference are contributing to an environment of hatred towards muslims. scritches in this country rachel you think about them in paris where we just heard from ahmed. well i think there are some valid criticisms of islam that it ought to be able to exist on their own without the whole fanaticism aspect and i think that's what we're losing here we're kind of mixing everything together and combining fanaticism with criticism of

islamic fundamentalism with policies by politicians like nicolas sarkozy who. the full face burka in france and also some immigration policies that are expounded by the the far right national front movement in france and parties like them and they're a legitimate party with you know in france they're they're increasing in popularity they made the final round of the french presidential election when pence father was faced off against jacques chirac and nobody was expecting that so i think although we're not seeing those kind of opinions expressed in the mainstream media particularly here in paris a little bit more in countries like the united states because there is that idea that freedom of speech isn't harmful and that people except for the insane people like brad pitt can actually differentiate between a really rigorous open honest debate as controversial as a might be and murderous acts but here in for in france and i can speak for france

because that's that's where i'm based now and i can also speak for canada because i'm canadian i know that they have these kinds of open debates about multiculturalism in the press is a very very difficult thing to do because there are so many lobby groups that just refuse to allow that for that kind of non politically correct debate because it's just not nice to say hurt people's feelings but i think we should be able to have a very legitimate open honest discussion about paul about policies related to multiculturalism and i don't really see why people would be offended about such such a debate because i think especially here in europe we're dealing with not only a very open border free movement kind of policy particularly within the european union and also a welfare state and i'm not sure if those two things can co-exist so. you know there's there's a whole lot of issues here that are all a play. broke i think to say that that an open debate on these issues leads to that kind of insanity is is to aren't to not give enough credit to insanity hakeem when

you look like you were disagreeing there i mean the only fanatic so far is this man i'm trial in norway go ahead well you know muslims we want to put orange debate about multiculturalism i believe multiculturalism has been a great success here in the united kingdom and of course europe and but you know we muslims are not frightened of debate we are not frightened of scrutiny but what we what we do not accept. if you look at the newspaper headlines that happen every single day you would think that the only story there are dozens of muslim stories that are planted in newspapers on a daily basis i don't know which newspaper she's been reading the newspapers i read and have access to when you are saying what we're likely i mean how do you design a notoriously is unlikely i need. rachel kearney please define for me an anti muslim story can you please define for me an anti muslim story a recent example just one because i'd like to i'd like to know what that looks like ok well let me give them to give you a very quick example here in the united kingdom the daily mail newspaper ran his

story. christmas time he said muslims want to ban christmas in one of the local authorities here in burning and i use a ludicrous story and when it went the other newspapers looked into it there was nothing into it it was a gentle civil servants sitting in an ivory tower saying that muslims might be offended by christmas and they didn't actually speak to the muslims so these are the stories and if you want me to go you know the examples then the more the month by terrorist attacks in two thousand and eight the british newspapers the day after those attacks said there was a british connection there british muslims were involved in those crimes and what happened twenty four hours later there was no british involvement whatsoever and these are the source stories that you can this is not necessary that anybody would even want to jump in here let me join the families that need to go to roger if you want me to give me a letter roger. this is going to head here come on let's let's all have our say look i just write three points for mohamad right you speak for moderate islam in

europe which is a major probably of the majority force of islam but you really cannot deny that there is a very small for in foreign oratory well i'm not saying it symmetrically the same as the fringe for minority of white what right wing extremists but there is a minority within the muslim community in europe which does hold extreme anti-democratic views about the role of islam in europe and is extremely intolerant of multiculturalism and the second thing i'd like to say is that though you said the skilling was indiscriminate he was very discriminant was part of his fanatical mindset what he wanted to take out were not muslims it was not a direct attack on muslims he blamed the labor party for. or promoting multiculturalism and he raised the whole issue of what he called the tyranny of political correctness which says that we can't even talk about these things without being accused of racism and all those two points so i really would like to hear

a more nuanced comment on a representative of the muslim community i feel that the immediately somebody talks about these things so tend to be accused or twice in some quarters both by some muslims and by some extreme liberals of racist assumptions and i am a fanatical liberal in other words i fanatically i for not fanatically what we hold dear i really as a result i'm very passionate liberal girl just going to say i'm. just as well and i actually go but do it i don't i'm going to sign muslims are extremists muhammad ali i mean if you look at the world if you look at the work that i've been doing in ramadan foundation and muslim organizations have been doing here in the united kingdom we take all those extremist so yes we accept i would like to exist you see minority of all i'm saying is that there is a minority of people who want to say it is a minority there's a minority of people who exist within the muslim community who are extremists who don't believe in the democratic values we don't believe in previous full

coexistence and tolerance and what we must not do is time issue whole faith system whole communities based on your actions over a small number of minority extremes that exist in all we can really want to rachel here is larry a girlfriend time where time i read by the rachel go ahead. and isn't that exactly what we're trying to do with breivik right now is to paint all the right wing people who have moderate points of view about immigration and cultural integration with the same brush saying that this kind of rhetoric is responsible for his actions you're saying exactly the same thing about extreme. islamic fundamentalists and how they tar everybody on our of the muslim religion without russia and you're objecting to that yet you seem to think that is ok what is there is where on the radio are comments like i do ok well let's let's look at what is the headscarf got to do with extremism what is a i mean a lot of need got to do with extremists what is money minarets got to do with

extremism so let's be honest what the debate or we'll have a new world is a vibe i mean symbols that exist within the muslim community if you want to debate and if you want to take on the extremist the terrorism i don't know about you is that in a little community let's bring it on i'm luke would you a look would you all look we don't need everybody i'm going to i'm going to give you the was short of the radio and after that you're great we'll continue our discussion on the trial in norway state park. if you. want to. one. hundred dollars this is your. claim by the forty acres and nineteen ninety three and decided it would

be a great place to find myself a home and retire. there she is what. we call it. we have seventy acres here and i can convince them that they need to drill somewhere besides two hundred feet from. the needs of our growing economy also means expanding our domestic production of oil and natural gas which are vital fuel for transportation electricity and manufacturing for any problems with the full weight of the rifle and then change. your flows are not toxic than we did a lot of there's a lot of mis understanding of what is actually in the flow it's. time to say you come up here unless you come up here and live in my house for a week. i have no rights.

wealthy british. type. markets. can find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to cause a report card. to take you. to. welcome back across the table to remind you we're talking about the issue of extremism and politics. and you can.

say. ok roger i'd like to go back to you in oxford i think one of the interesting things that we've already discussed in this program and i think we can be more nuanced is that we have extremists on both sides we have we have break we have we also have muslims that are extremist to do not accept democratic values and freedom of speech or many other things that we would that they would disagree with us on but you know we're talking about very small minorities on either side i hate how much to what degree are they dictating the discourse about politics and multiculturalism now in europe and to some degree in the united states. well it's a really paradoxical position i mean if you just read headlines and you might if you didn't live in britain get the impression of some real profound racial tensions but actually for millions of people living in multicultural british british cities we have extraordinary levels of integration and i think there are problems about into communal relationships in terms of genuine interaction but it's a very very tolerant society so yes obviously extremist actions and certain media.

appropriate stories to hit the headlines but i would actually make a big distinction between the way life actually is for the vast majority and the sort of headline grabbing. actions but what i'd like to take up with one hundred if i may is the idea that there's a lot of sort of muslim bashing going on which is all trivial stuff about symbols like scarves i've tried to say at the risk of being provocative but this is cross it also and we are using what i learn roger violations we are doing here is just about to make a point go ahead right here go ahead. i mean this is cross talk we don't need to be cross about it what i want to say is that is that i think that the whole issue about integration and multiculturalism raises some very profound issues which i think the center ground of liberalism and the center ground of all front faith

communities really has to take seriously which is the question of identity and it is a fact that europe is changing demographically and in terms of cultural mix very rapidly in a way that alarm some people and if mainstream parties do not have and hold and encourage productive to bates' about what constitutes culture and allow dangerous myths to grow up about pure englishness or what is being lost or christian society then it will leave the space the political space for extremists on both sides and i think that is a serious substantive issue right entity is not just an issue for the far right or far left very good point mohammed you want to reply to and i know rachel always has something to say mohammed for i think. i'm cross when the rights of women to choose how they dress are taken away from them i'm cross when it is taken away from them i'm cross when people are banned in france from praying in portly i mean these these initiatives that have been driven by far right politicians across europe are

done to belittle islam or to stop the free right of muslims to practice their faith we want to defeat extremism i find abhorrent the views that are expressed by advocates harder. than any other you know extremist organization i've been fighting those organizations still since two thousand and five i've been involved in the work to run from the foundation has been doing but what i find even more upholding is this is a near obsession and we belittle in islam and to somehow creating a you know a clash of cultures a clash of religions we want to live in peace the christians the jews the muslims people of no faith want to be living in a tolerant society and as roger rightly says the last majority of people. that identity is a major issue of the whole u.c. the is there look you guys i want to raise i mean just as exacerbating point i was going to leave with respect to the lady in paris rachael what i know is when i went

to go everywhere but what about the identity issue here because i think it's interesting enough and i'm i'm very left in many things here but it's a pity roger brings up a very good point is that you know the identity issue doesn't belong to the right it should belong to everyone here and the right is taking it into it down their path for a variety of reasons but identity itself is a very much in danger in europe but it doesn't mean that we have to go to extremes i mean identity changes all the time that's what we have to understand go ahead rachel. kind of an individual as compared to most people around here i guess by comparison at least so i'm not too too concerned about about the collective but i think once the collective starts imposing on somebodies individual rights then it becomes an issue and if i you know if i'm walking around outside in paris and there are women with their faces covered and often it's not even of their

own volition it's because it's imposed upon them very not fully integrated in society if it's only just visually they're not fully integrated in society if they're walking around with a face covered so the idea that nicolas sarkozy his government ultimately banned that face cover it encourages greater integration and actually does that girls are saved by virtue of the fact that they are you don't you don't think it's. an isolationist if you read into it we should it is it is not so what you see i mean i frankly i really think that somebody just see when i see it as i do not she promotes the freedom of women. is it always their choice to wear those. i don't think it is really dangerous to wear was absolutely certain right away and chose not to wear out all right roger go ahead jump in roger well can i can i just cannot just say surely if it really is a question of individual choice and respect for freedom i'll respect the right of

women in oxford to wear the burka or whatever form of verse they want whatever culture they come from what what what disturbs me is the idea that within a particular community there is some sort of imposition of cultural norms which creates distress for those individuals now i'm not in a position to judge whether somebody who is where in traditional dress is unhappy doing that or not and i personally would be appalled if britain suddenly wanted to intervene there at a state level but i am concerned about the fact that there is there are there is evidence within some ethnic minorities and religious communities and i'm not just talking about muslims certain practices of continued which are actually illegal within if you like known faith community secular britain which are being perpetuated under the cover of respecting culture but which i think are an offense to the to the individuals concerned i don't want to list them but what i'm saying is these are really big issues and i think what you tell your kid in an ok all

right let's take a little bit more back on topic here i mean if i can go to you what is the lessons that we have to learn from this tragedy in norway how do we deal with multiculturalism because you can dismiss it you can hate it you can dislike it but it's still there ok it's not going to go away ok what do we learn from this tragedy here because like i said starting out the program seeing that man's face it's bizarre i mean it's looking at you know i don't usually use words like evil ok but when you see that in a mild mannered person like that you could commit such a heinous crime how do we how did he get there how do we make sure it doesn't happen again. well i think the starting point is we heard you have such a good. we were as a starting point we have to accept that muslims are integral part of europe ok we've got a responsibility to have a debate in an open honest way i'm not saying that we can't have a debate on integration and multiculturalism yes there are issues to debate yes there are concerns of those community when when we see these problems that exist in

societies but if you look at brevik he's got connections to the english defense league here in the united kingdom another fascist organization so there's a widespread connection between far right organizations here in europe and far right organization like the tea party party movement in the united states who are propelling this concept very slam is a threat to europe and the muslims somehow try taking over and europe and that is somehow muslims need to be thrown out of this continent if we accept that the muslims are an integral part of all of european society then we can have one eastern open debate about integration but these state sponsored. attacks are on the ball car on his chart on whole our needs and praying in public these things do not contribute to an atmosphere of tolerance and i think that's the problem as a person who's liberal on passionately i believe in individual freedom and choice

so if muslims are being forced to work where did god come that's absolutely wrong it's not just against western laws and european laws it's against islamic laws there is no compulsion in religion if you can only killings if you can force forced marriages if you don't look at issue one street groom in all these issues go against the transcripts obviously as well so that it's not ok our western values actually go against our faith as well ok rachael kohn what kind of discussion do you want to have our multiculturalism now i mean i mean again this is such a horrific crime i mean it was good in the name of being against it ok if you like i said multiculturalism you can change the name but the proper concept is going to stay with us we don't have much choice here what kind of conversation do you want to have if you have to have interest in civil society about this. well i think we have to be able to discuss openly and honestly whether or not there are in fact cultures that are incompatible with our democratic practices and i and i think i don't think the onus is on our culture or people who are proponents say here it's

to this particular culture to think the onus is on us to prove that we need to accept other cultures as being in line with ours i think the onus is on people from the outside cultures who we welcome with open arms and who we have welcomed with open arms for decades now to prove that you know this really that was what you really deserve the obviously it is a great ok you've come here from canada and i was born in you and that's why i said exactly during this that you're right don't you know this next year about i would. you say it's my culture with respect i think these arguments and i'm thinking about i'm talking about western sir sir i'm talking about western culture and you claim to represent a muslim islamic culture so i'm talking about western culture i'm quite. muslim i'm a european muslim who takes. real i'm strictly on t.v. and soon as you can all right john you're going to jump in here roger again please

there's a line or they're going to roger and i heard you all were going to try for the last word in the program go sir go ahead and look i just say liberalism took hundreds of years to evolve to the principles of individual human rights and the tolerance to adapt to european reality is now i think liberalism is a fundamental rethink to accommodate the realities of a global society in a genuinely multicultural multi-faith europe by. revamping the principles teaching history properly getting proper dialogue sorting out its categories and circling the idea of hyphenated identity is roger you give me a child during their program in the future thanks to my guests today in paris oxford in manchester and thanks to our viewers for watching. it's fair to see you next time a member across time. soon .