into the global economy with a much stronger or a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause a report on r g. three in the afternoon on friday here in moscow here r.t. headlines of boyce's of concern a civil in bahrain growing as loud as the formula one cars currently racing around its track. the i.m.f. moves to quarantine a flammable euro zone from the global economy as a give politicians power song and seize the union center. and china is trying its luck in getting a slice of the arctic energy as its premier when john doe embarks on a tour. of a trial of norwegian mass murderer and his grave is currently under way and.

inevitably back great memories from last year's shocking attack but have any lessons learned pop the question right now. can. start. to. flow in welcoming hostile computable of the insane or murderous right wing fanatics this is what a norwegian court must determine in the wake of last year's massacre of seventy seven people and his bravery clearly holds extremist ideas and is a narcissist but when one strips away his extremism much of what he has to say can be found in conservative media all through the western world when it comes to multiculturalism what is really on trial here. can't. stand. to

cross not the case in norway i'm joined by rachel martin in paris she is a political communications strategist and said make a good columnist in oxford to go to roger a griffin he is a professor of political theorist at oxford brookes university and in manchester we have mohammed sufi key is the chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation r.i. focus is crossed i'm going to as you can jump in anytime you want roger i want to go to you first before we get to before the program started you asked if we're going to talk about if the man on trial in norway is insane or not how would you describe that because in looking at the trial i think it's really spooky looking at this trial because he seems to be out worldly a very normal mild mannered person and he has he's able no he's admitted to this really ugly massive crime and he still sits there like you could be sitting next to him in a bus. well i think what we're witnessing on wires is thanks to the wonders of television is the state of mind of a fanatic

a fanatical racist in this case who fanatical anything really i think a fanatic creates a sort of psychosis for himself which is very different from normal forms of insanity he has created an imaginary universe which is divided into good and evil is called a manichean worldview and he puts himself cumbia she is well into the role of a cosmic warrior fighting evil and in that role he or she feels beyond good and evil and feels entitled to do things which he or she knows in normal morality are regarded as as evil or insane but they have the confidence to know they represent sun higher truth so what you're seeing is the cold fanaticism which explains also terrible events in the twentieth century and under non-answers a more or stalin as a more now is a more cold hot fanaticism though it's a form of insanity it's

a very very special form which allows for somebody to behave very rationally and very strategically coherent way in a way which is not consistent with normal types of insanity came home and listening to what he had to say what he did was horrendous but what he has had to say you here are in other quarters of europe all over the place in the united states q i mean this is what really bothers me about this trial is that he's not alone wolfy he's a lone wolf and what he did but he's not a lone wolf and what he thinks. well he shares the same ideology that the far right do share here in europe and cost the united states which is inherent hatred put islam and muslims which i believe is misplaced this is a vile mine and he took inspiration from the far right fascist ideology and he has killed many people in an indiscriminate way and he can sit in court and try to justify his actions as if he's on his one man crusade to force muslims out of

europe like i said before muslims are part of the d.n.a. of european society we are passionate europeans we want to live in this continent in peace full coexistence but we must be allowed to carry out our faith according to our own scriptures and i live in peaceful coexistence and what this demonstrates to you very clearly is that there is a rise of the far right across europe and that's deeply what informally people and suddenly some mainstream politicians like presence of causey in france are contributing to an environment of hatred towards muslims and scritches in this country rachael you think about them in paris where we just heard from hammad. well i think there are some valid criticisms of islam that ought to be able to exist on their own without the whole fanaticism aspect and i think that's what we're losing here we're kind of mixing everything together and combining fanaticism with criticism of islamic fundamentalism with policies by politicians like nicolas

sarkozy who. the full face burka in france and also some immigration policies that are expounded by the the far right national front movement in france and parties like them and they're a legitimate party with you know in france they're they're increasing in popularity they made the final round of the french presidential election when. father was faced off against and nobody was expecting that so i think although we're not seeing those kind of opinions expressed in the mainstream media particularly here in paris a little bit more and countries like the united states because there is that idea that freedom of speech isn't harmful and that people except for the insane people can actually differentiate between a really rigorous open honest blunt debate as controversial as a might be and murderous acts but here in for in france and i can speak for france because that's that's where i'm based now and i can also speak for canada because

i'm canadian i know that they have these kinds of open debates about multiculturalism in the press is a very very difficult thing to do because there are so many lobby groups that just refuse to allow that for that kind of non politically correct debate because it's just not nice to say and hurt people's feelings but i think we should be able to have a very legitimate open honest discussion about paul about policies related to multiculturalism and i don't really see why people would be offended about such such a debate as i think especially here in europe we're dealing with not only a very open border free movement kind of policy particularly within the european union and also a welfare state and i'm not sure if those two things can co-exist so. you know there's there's a whole lot of issues here they're all a play. broke i think to say that that an open debate on these issues leads to that kind of insanity is is to on to not get enough credit to insanity thank you talking how you look like you were just greener i mean the only fanatics so far is this man

i'm trial in norway go ahead well you know muslims we want to beat about multiculturalism i believe multiculturalism is being a great success here in the united kingdom and of course europe and but you know we muslims are not frightened of debate we are not frightened of scrutiny but what we what we do not accept and rachel if you look at the newspaper headlines that happen every single day you would think that the only story there are dozens of anti muslim stories planted in newspapers on a daily basis i don't know which newspaper she's been reading the newspapers i read and have access to when you are saying what we're going to you know how do i design and. i need. rachel danny please define for me an anti muslim story can you please define for me an anti muslim story a recent example just one because i'd like to i'd like to know what that looks like ok well let me give them we give you a very quick example here in the united kingdom the daily mail newspaper ran

a story christmas time she said muslims want to ban christmas in one of the local authorities here in burnie go and use a ludicrous story and when it went the other newspapers looked into it it was nothing into it it was a gentle civil servants so tonight retired with saying that muslims might be offended by christmas and it is not a speech making muslims so these are the stories and if you want me to give you know the examples then the moment the mumbai terrorist attacks in two thousand and eight the british newspapers the day after those attacks said there was a british connection there british muslims were involved in those crimes and what happened twenty four hours later there was no british involvement whatsoever and these are the source stories their commercials are necessary because i want only one agenda here let me join somebody that i need to be using go to roger if you want me to give me money roger you have you know we is going to hurt. here come on let's all have our say look just like three points from mohammed right you speak for moderate islam in europe which is a major probably

a good majority of force of islam but you really cannot deny that there is a very small for in minority well i'm not saying it symmetrically the same as the for information or to have white what right wing extremists but there is a minority within the muslim community in europe which does hold extreme antidemocratic views about the role of islam in europe and is extremely intolerant of multiculturalism and the second thing i'd like to say is that though you said that skilling was indiscriminate he was very discriminant but was part of his fanatical monster what he wanted to take out were not muslims it was not a direct attack on muslims he's blamed the labor party for. or promoting multiculturalism and he raised the whole issue of what he called the tyranny of political correctness which says that we can't even talk about these things without being accused of racism now those two points i really would like to hear a more nuanced comment on

a representative of the muslim community i feel that made at least somebody talk some of these things they tend to be accused in some quarters both by some muslims and by some extreme liberals of old racist assumptions and i m a fanatical liberal in other words i found that it clearly i found that fanatically what i would hold rather i primarily as it was well i'm very passionate liberal girl just going to say i'm a. while and i actually have to do it i'm going to some muslims are extremists muhammad ali i'm if you look at the world if you look at a word that i've been doing in iran we don't foundation and muslim organizations have been doing it here in the united kingdom we take on those extremist so yes we accept anger that it looks as if you see a minority of all i'm saying is that there is a minority of people who are saying it is a minority there's a minority of people who exist within the muslim community who are extremists who don't believe in the democratic values and you'll believe in previous full

coexistence and tolerance and what we must not do is tiny whole faith system whole communities based on the actions over a small number of minority extremists that exist in all three hundred one is a region of here is where a girl fair time fair time arriba the rachel go ahead. and isn't that exactly what we're trying to do with breivik right now is to paint all the right wing people who have moderate points of view about immigration and cultural integration with the same brush saying that this kind of rhetoric is responsible for his actions you're saying exactly the same thing about extreme. islamic fundamentalists and how they tar everybody on the on of the muslim religion with our brush and you're objecting to that yet you seem to think that it is ok what is it that is wearing on the radio and comments like i do ok well let's let's look at what is the headscarf got to do with extremism what is a i mean a lot of need got to do extremists what is bunny minarets got to do with extremism

so let's be honest what the debate there will have a new role is about i mean symbols that exist within the muslim community if you want to debate and if you want to take on the extremist the terrorism i don't know about you but in a little community let's bring you on i'm look when you look we do you all look within everybody i'm going to jump in here we're going to was short of the radio and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on the trial in norway state are. you. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for late sleep you think you understand it and then you blimp something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm trying hard welcome to the big picture.

one. hundred. living here. we imbibe in forty acres and nineteen ninety three and decided it would be a great place to find the belle the home and retire. there she is. we call it our new neighbor neighbor seven. we have seventy acres here and i can't convince them that they need to drill somewhere sides two hundred feet from. the needs of our growing economy also means expanding our domestic production of oil and natural gas which are vital fuel for transportation electricity and manufacturing says look for

a minute in the problems of the people who do the right and then. you know our flaws are not toxic and we did a lot of there's a lot of mis understanding of what that is actually in the fluids. does it get come out here unless you come out here and look at my house for a week. i have no rights. to. you can. still. welcome back to crossfire i'm carol costello mind you we're talking about the issue of extremism and politics. can start. ok roger and i people back to you in oxford i think one of the

interesting things that we've already discussed in this program and i think we can be more nuanced is that we have extremists on both sides we have we have break we have we also have muslims that are extremist the genetics of democratic values and freedom of speech and many other things that we would that they would disagree with us on but you know we're talking about very small minorities on either side they'd how much to what degree are they dictating the discourse about politics and multiculturalism now in europe and to some degree in the united states. well it's a really paradoxical position i mean if you just read headlines and search for you might if you didn't live in britain get the impression of some real profound racial tensions but actually for millions of people living in malta cultural brick british cities we have extraordinary levels of integration and i think there are problems about into communal relationships in terms of genuine interaction because it's a very very tolerant society so yes obviously extremist actions and certain media.

appropriate stories to hit the headlines but i would actually make a big distinction between the way life actually is for the vast majority and the sort of headline grabbing. actions but what i'd like to take up with one hundred if i may is the idea that there's a lot of sort of muslim bashing going on which is all trivial stuff about symbols like scarves i've tried to say at the risk of being provocative but this is cross it's all going we'll it was a little roger initially i do it was just about to make a point go ahead right here look at it yeah i mean this is cross talk we don't need to be cross about it what i want to say is that is that i think that the whole issue about. integration and multiculturalism raises some very profound issues which i think the center ground of liberalism and the center ground of all five faith communities really has to take seriously which is the question of identity

and it is a fact that europe is changing demographic lee and in terms of cultural mix very rapidly in a way that alarm sun people and its mainstream parties do not have and hold and encourage productive debates about what constitutes culture and allowed planes or smith to grow up about pure englishness or what is being lost or christian society then it will leave the space the political space for extremists on both sides and i think that is a serious substantive issue right entity is not just an issue for the far right or far left very good point mohammed you want to reply to that i know rachel always has something to say of muhammad for i think. i'm cross when the rights of women to choose how they dress are taken away from them i'm cross when a lot of meat is taken away from them i'm cross when people are banned in france from praying in public i mean these these initiatives that are being driven by far

right politicians across europe are done to political islam and to stop the free right of muslims to practice their faith we want to defeat extremism i find abhorrent the views that are expressed by a because art or. any other you know extremist organization i've been fighting those organizations still since two thousand and five i've been involved in the world to the ramadan foundation and foundation has been doing but what i find even more appalling is this is a near obsession and we belittling islam and somehow creating a. clash of cultures a clash of religions we want to live in peace the jews the muslims people of no faith want to but living in a tolerant society and as roger rightly said it's the last majority of people. that identity is a major issue of the whole you know usually the is good you guys i want to raise i think this is a fascinating point i was going to. respect for the lady in paris rachael what

about it when i went to address what about the identity issue here because i think it's interesting enough that i'm i'm very left in many things here but it's a pity roger brings up a very good point is if you know the identity issue doesn't belong to the right it should go on to everyone here and the right is taking it in and it down their path for a variety of reasons but identity itself is a very much engaged in europe but it doesn't mean that we have to go to extremes i mean identity changes all the time that's what we have to understand go ahead richard. i'm kind of an individual as compared to most people around here i guess by comparison at least so i'm not too too concerned about about the collective but i think once the collective starts imposing on somebodies individual rights then it becomes an issue and if i you know if i'm walking around outside in paris and there are women with their faces covered and often it's not even of their own volition it's because it's imposed upon them they're not fully integrated in

society if only just visually they're not fully integrated in society if they're walking around with a face cover so the idea that nicolas sarkozy his government ultimately ban that face cover it encourages greater integration actually does that alter a savior by virtue of the fact that they are you don't you don't think it's. an isolationist if you read it we should you know it is it is not fair so when you see i mean frankly i mean this is some do you see what i see it as i do not she promotes the freedom of women. is it always their choice to wear those. i don't think it is. the way i was absolutely certain whenever one chose not to wear it all right roger go ahead jump in roger can i can i just cannot just say surely if it really is a question of individual choice and respect for freedom i respect the right of

women in oxford to wear the purple or whatever formal dress they want whatever culture they come from what what disturbs me is the idea that within a particular community there is some sort of imposition of cultural norms which creates distress for those individuals now i'm not in a position to judge whether somebody was wearing traditional dress is unhappy doing that or not and i personally would be appalled if britain suddenly wanted to intervene there at a state level but i am concerned about the fact that there is there are there is evidence that within some ethnic minorities and religious communities and are not just talking about muslims certain practices are continued which are actually illegal within if you like non faith community secular britain which are being perpetuated under the cover of respecting culture which i think are an offense to the to the individuals concerned i don't want to list them but i what i'm saying is these are really big issues and i think what do you think. ok all right let's get

a little bit more back on topic here i mean if i can go to you what is the lessons that we have to learn from this tragedy in norway how do we deal with multiculturalism because you can dismiss it you can hate it you can dislike it but it's still there ok it's not going to go away ok will we learn from this tragedy here because like i said starting out the program seeing that man's face it's bizarre i mean it's looking at you know i don't usually use words like evil ok but when you see that in a mild mannered person like that you could get such a heinous crime how do we how did he get there how do we make sure it doesn't happen again. right in a starting point is because you have such a good. we were as a starting point we have to accept that muslims are integral part of europe ok we've got a responsibility to how they debate in or put on history i'm not saying that we can't have a debate on integration and multiculturalism yes there are issues to do yes there are concerns of those community when when we see these problems that exist in

societies but if you look at brevik he's got connections to the english defense league here in the united kingdom under the fascist organization so there's a widespread connection between the far right organizations here in europe and far right organization like the tea party party movement in the united states who are poor peddling this a concept their islam is a threat to europe and the muslims somehow try taking over europe and that is somehow muslims need to be thrown out of this confluence if we accept the muslims are an integral part of all of european society then we can i wanted an open debate about integration but these state sponsored. attacks on the bulk of our own and he charged on her large needs on praying in public these things do not contribute to an atmosphere of tolerance and i think that's the problem as a person who's liberal and passionately i believe in individual freedom and choice so if muslims are being forced to read

a book called that's absolutely wrong it's not just against western laws and european laws it's against islamic laws there is no compulsion in religion if you look in on the killings if you look of forced marriages if you look at issue one street groom in all these issues called against the transcript of the son as well so it's not ok our western values they actually go against our faith as well ok rachael kohn what kind of discussion do you want to have our multiculturalism now i mean i mean again this is such a horrific crime and it was done in the name of being against it ok but like i said multiculturalism you can change the name but the proper concept is going to stay with us we don't have much choice here what kind of conversation do you want to have if we have to have interest in civil society about this. well i think we have to be able to discuss openly and honestly whether or not there are in fact cultures that are incompatible with our democratic practices and and i think i don't think the onus is on our culture people who are proponents say he writes to this

particular culture to i don't think the onus is on us to prove that that we need to accept other cultures as being in line with ours i think the onus is on people from the outside cultures who we welcome with open arms and who we have welcomed with open arms for decades now to prove that i know this really i was the one you really deserve the obviously is a great ok i'm here from canada i was born in your that's why so you're actually doing this lecture given his lecture about i would. say it's my culture with respect i think i was talking about and i'm thinking about i'm talking about western sir sir i'm talking about western culture and you claim to represent a muslim islamic culture so i'm talking about western culture i'm for. america i'm the european muslim i'm a european muslim who takes great care i'm strictly on t.v. and filters you can still hear all right so you can be you know i want to jump in here roger including you are the roger and i heard you all were going to try for

the last word of the program go sir go ahead look look i just say liberalism took hundreds of years to evolve to the principles of individual human rights and the tolerance. to adapt to european reality is now i think liberalism needs a fundamental rethink to accommodate the realities of a global society in a genuinely multicultural multi-faith europe by. revamping the principles teaching history properly getting proper dialogue sorting out its categories and settling the idea of hyphenated identity is the same roger you can do it we have a child during their program in the future thanks to my guests today in paris oxford in manchester and thanks to our viewers for watching. because here you see you next time a member of problem. let's. see . him up.

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