this is our hear your friday headlines in egypt where is that once again filled with voices of discontent has people disillusioned with the outcome of the revolution descend on central cairo thousands of protesting against the military rulers and one of the biggest rally used since hosni mubarak's downfall. clashes between the regime protesters and police in bahrain finally get the attention of the international community as demonstrators threaten quote days of rage to coincide with a formula one race of the unrest that started at least a year ago would be on the media's radar if it wasn't for the glamorous sporting

event. and china turns its growing night towards the arctic as the country's prime minister tours europe seeking support for beijing's membership in the arctic council but china's bid to enter the fight for the past energy resources has alarmed that member nation. my colleague bill daughters here in half an hour's time before now crosstalk focuses on mass murderer. can. follow in welcome to cross talk on futile about insane or murderous rightly fanatic this is what a norwegian court must determine in the wake of last year's massacre of seventy seven people and his bravery clearly holds extremist ideas and is a narcissist but when one strips away his extremism much of what he has to say can

be found in conservative media all through the western world when it comes to multiculturalism what is really on trial here. can start. to cross talk the case in norway i'm joined by rachel martin in paris she is a political communications strategist and syndicated columnist in oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor of political affairs that oxford brookes university and in manchester we have mohammed saffi key is the chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want raj i want to go to you first before we get to before the program started you asked if we were going to talk about if the man on trial in norway is insane or not how would you describe that because and looking at the trial i think it's really spooky looking at this trial because he seems to be outwardly a very normal mild mannered person and he has he's able to he's admitted to this

really ugly massive crime and he still sits there like you could be sitting next to him in a bus. well i think what we're witnessing on my ass is thanks to the wonders of television is the state of mind of a fanatic or fanatical racist in this case could be a fanatical anything really i think a fanatic creates a sort of psychosis for himself which is very different from normal forms of insanity he has created an imaginary universe which is divided into good and evil is called a manichean worldview and he puts himself can be a she as well into the role of a cosmic warrior fighting evil and in that role he or she feels beyond good and evil and feels entitled to do things which he or she knows in normal morality are regarded as as evil or insane but they have the confidence to know that they

represent some higher truth so what you're seeing is the cold fanaticism which explains also parable events in the twentieth century and under non-answers a more or stalin as a more maoism or cold pot fanaticism though it's a form of insanity it's a very very special form which allows for somebody to behave very rationally and very strategically coherent way in a way which is not consistent with normal types of insanity he would have been in listening to what he had to say what he did was horrendous but what he has had to say you hear out in other quarters of europe all over the place in the united states too i mean this is what really bothers me about this trial is that he's not alone wolfy he's alone walked in what he did he's not a lone wolf and what he thinks. well he shares the same ideology that the far right do share here in europe and cost the united states which is inherent hatred for the slum and muslims which i believe is misplaced this is

a vial mine he took inspiration from the far right fascist ideology and he has killed many people in an indiscriminate way and he can sit in court and try to justify his actions as if he's on his one man crusade to force muslims out of europe like i said before muslims are part of the d.n.a. of european society we are passionate europeans we want to live in this continent in peace full color existence but we must be allowed to carry out our faith according to our own scriptures and i live in peaceful coexistence and what this demonstrates to you very clearly is that there is a rise of the far right across europe and that's deeply what in for many people and sadly some mainstream politicians like presence of causey indifference are contributing to an environment of hatred towards muslims. scriptures in this country rich what do you think about them in paris where we just heard from harm.

well i think there are some valid criticisms of islam that that ought to be able to exist on their own without the whole fanaticism aspect and i think that's what we're losing here we're kind of mixing everything together and combining fanaticism with criticism of islamic fundamentalism with policies by politicians like nicolas sarkozy who. the full face burka and france and also some immigration policies that are expounded by the the far right national front movement in france and parties like them and they're a legitimate party with you know in france they're they're increasing in popularity they made the final round of the french presidential election when the pence father was faced off against jacques chirac and nobody was expecting that so i think although we're not seeing those kind of opinions expressed in the mainstream media particularly here in paris a little bit more and countries like the united states because there is that idea that freedom of speech isn't harmful and that people except for the insane people

like brevik can actually differentiate between a really rigorous open honest blunt debate as controversial as a might be and murderous acts but here in for in france and i can speak for france because that's that's our base now and i can also speak for canada because i'm canadian and i know that they have these kinds of open debates about multiculturalism in the press is a very very difficult thing to do because there are so many lobby groups that just refuse to allow that for that kind of non politically correct debate because it's just not nice to say and hurt people's feelings but i think we should be able to have a very legitimate open honest discussion about paul about policies related to multiculturalism and i don't really see why people would be offended about such such a debate as i think especially here in europe we're dealing with not only a very open border free movement kind of policy particularly within the european union and also a welfare state and i'm not sure if those two things can co-exist so. you know

there's there's a whole lot of issues here they're all a play broke i think to say that that an open debate on these issues leads to that kind of insanity is is to on to not give enough credit to insanity thank you talking how you look like you were disagreeing there i mean the only fanatics so far is this man i'm trial in norway go ahead well you know muslims we want. about multiculturalism i believe multiculturalism has been a great success here in the united kingdom and of course europe and but you know we muslims are not frightened of debate we are not frightened of scrutiny but what we what we do not accept rachael if you look at the newspaper headlines that happen every single day you would think that the only story there are dozens of anti muslim stories that are planted in newspapers on a daily basis i don't know which newspaper she's been reading to newspapers i read and have access to when you are saying what we're going to see i mean how do you go

design and is unlikely i need. rachel gurney please define for me an anti muslim story can you please define for me an anti muslim story a recent example just one because i'd like to i'd like to know what that looks like ok but if you give them you give you a very quick example here in the united kingdom the daily mail newspaper ran a story. christmas time she said muslims want to buy christmas in one of the local authorities here in burning and i use a ludicrous story and when it went the other newspapers looked into it there was nothing into it it was a gentle civil servants sitting in an ivory tower saying that muslims might be offended by christmas and they do not speak for the muslims so these are the stories and if you want me to go you know the examples the more the more the monk guy terrorist attacks in two thousand and eight the british newspapers the day after those attacks said there was a british connection the british muslims were involved in those crimes and what happened twenty four hours later there was no british involvement whatsoever and these are the source stories their concerns are yes it's very likely we're not

going to jump in here let me jump in for some reason i mean surely enjoy the roger if you want me to give me a little roger. is going to go ahead here come on let's all have our say look i've just like three points from my home a right you speak for moderate islam in europe which is a major probably of the majority force of islam but you really cannot deny but there is a very small fringe one oratory well i'm not saying it symmetrically the same as the fringe minority of white what right wing extremists but there is a minority within the muslim community in europe which does hold extreme antidemocratic views about the role of islam in europe and is extremely intolerant of multiculturalism and but the second thing i'd like to say is that though you said that skilling was indiscriminate he was very discriminant it was part of his fanatical nonsense what he wanted to take out were not muslims it was not

a direct attack on muslims he blames the labor party for. or promoting multiculturalism and he raised the whole issue of what he called the tyranny of political correctness which says that we can't even talk about these things without being accused of racism now those two points i really would like to hear a more nuanced comment on by a representative of the muslim community i feel that made at least somebody talks about these things they tend to be accused or in some quarters both by some muslims and by some extreme liberals of of racist assumptions and i i'm a fanatical liberal in other words i format it clee i fanatical fanatically of the whole route rather i lie with islam as well i'm very passionate liberal girl just to say i'm. just as well and i actually go but do it i'm going to some muslims are extremists hi gary i'm if you look at the if you look at the work that i've been doing in iran we don't foundation and muslim organizations have been doing here in

the united kingdom we take on those extremist so yes we accept. you see minority of all i'm saying is that there is a minority of people who are saying it is a minority there's a minority of people who exist within the muslim community who are extremists who don't believe in the democratic values we don't believe in previous full coexistence and tolerance and what we must not do is time is to hold faith system whole communities based on your kids over a small number of minority extremes that exist in all three and i'm really going to rachel here is what her girlfriend time care carried by the rachel go ahead. i mean on is not exactly what we're trying to do with breivik right now is to paint all the right wing people who have moderate points of view about immigration and and cultural integration with the same brush saying that this kind of rhetoric is responsible for his actions you're saying exactly the same thing about everybody extreme. islamic fundamentalists and how they tar everybody on the on

of the muslim religion with that brush and you're objecting to that yet you seem to think that is ok what is there is where on the right to have comments like i do ok well let's let's look at what is the headscarf got to do with extremism what is a i mean a lot of need got to do with extremists what is bunny minarets got to do with extremism so let's be honest what the debate that we have a new world is a vibe i mean symbols that exist within the muslim community if you want to debate and if you want to take on the extremists the terrorists don't i don't know about you is that in the muslim community let's bring it on i'm liquid you look we do all the good in everybody and we're going to hear we're going to was short of the radio and then after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the trial in norway state are. you.

more used today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. can you call for egypt's role today to. something. lies beneath. thousands of meters of ice broke. the law. that is a good for many. but dangerous even to those who keep it to

a distance. education system. in the future to. welcome across popular culture mind you we're talking about the issue of extremism and politics. you can just start. ok roger and i think about you in oxford i think one of the interesting things that

we've already discussed in this program and i think we can be more nuanced is that we have extremists on both sides we have we have break we have we also have muslims that are extremist they do not accept democratic values and freedom of speech and many other things that we would and they would disagree with us on but you know we're talking about very small minorities on either side i say how much to what degree are they dictating the discourse about politics and multiculturalism now in europe and to some degree in the united states. well it's a really paradoxical position i mean if you just read headlines that searcher you might if you didn't live in britain get the impression of some real profound racial tensions but actually for millions of people living in not a cultural brick british cities we have extraordinary levels of integration and i think there are problems about into communal relationships in terms of genuine interaction but there's a it's a very very tolerant society so yes obviously extremist actions and certain media.

appropriate stories to hit the headlines but i would actually make a big distinction between the way life actually is for the vast majority and the sort of headline grabbing. actions but what i'd like to take up with one hundred if i may is the idea that there's a lot of sort of muslim bashing going on which is all trivial stuff about symbols like scarves i can i just say at the risk of being provocative but this is cross it was going it was it was a little roger initially i didn't mean he was just about to make a point go ahead right here go ahead. i mean this is cross talk we don't mean to be cross about it what i want to say is that is that i think that the whole issue about. integration and not a culture is and raises some very profound issues which i think the center ground of liberalism and the center ground of all five faith communities really has to take seriously which is the question of identity and it is

a fact that europe is changing demographic clearly and in terms of cultural mix very rapidly in a way that alarm some people and it's mainstream parties do not have and hold and encourage a productive debates about what constitutes culture and allowed dangerous mist to grow up about pure englishness or what is being lost or christian society then it will leave the space the political space for extremists on both sides and i think that is a serious substantive issue their identity is not just an issue for the far right all far less very good point mohammed you want to reply to and i know rachel always has something to say mohammed for. i'm cross when the rights of women to choose how they dress are taken away from them i'm cross when need is taken away from them i'm cross when people are banned in france from praying in public i mean these these initiatives that have been driven by far right politicians across europe i don't

belittle islam to stop the free right on the streets to practice their faith we want to defeat extremism i find abhorrent the views that are expressed by a book a tiger a large union and any other you know extremist organization i've been fighting goes all denies ation still since two thousand and five i've been involved in the work to the ramadan foundation foundation has been doing but what i find even more upholding is this near obsession i would belittling islam and since somehow creating a you know a clash of cultures a clash of religions we want to live in peace the christians the jews the muslims people of no faith want to good living in a tolerant society and as roger rightly said the vast majority of people. but identity is a major issue of the whole usually the is good for you guys i want to raise i mean just as exacerbating point i was going to respectability in paris rachael whatever that is when i go everywhere but what about the identity issue here because i think

it's interesting enough that i'm i'm very left in many things here but it's a pity roger brings up a very good point is that you know the identity issue doesn't belong to the right it should belong to everyone here and the right is taking it into it down their path for a variety of reasons but identity itself is a very much in danger in europe but it doesn't mean that we have to go to extremes i mean identity changes all the time that's what we have to understand go ahead richard. i'm kind of an individual as compared to most people around here i guess by comparison at least so i'm not too too concerned about about the collective but i think once the collective starts imposing on somebodies individual rights then it becomes an issue and if i you know if i'm walking around outside in paris and there are women with their faces covered and often it's not even of their own volition it's because it's imposed upon them they're not fully integrated in

society if only just visually they're not fully integrated in society if they're walking around with a face cover so the idea that nicolas sarkozy his government ultimately banned that face cover it encourages greater integration and actually does. virtue of the fact that they are you don't you don't think it's. an isolationist if you read it we should it is it is not fair so as you see i mean frankly i do you think that somebody just easily would i see when i see what i do not she promoting freedom of women. isn't always their choice to wear those. i don't think it is not religion based where i was absolutely certain whenever one chose not to wear it all right roger go ahead jump in roger can i just cannot just say surely if it really is a question of individual choice and respect for freedom i'll respect the right of women in oxford to wear the burka or whatever form of dress they want whatever

culture they come from what but what what disturbs me is the idea that within a particular community there is some sort of imposition of cultural norms which creates distress for those individuals now i'm not in a position to judge whether somebody who is where in traditional dress is unhappy doing that or not and i personally would be appalled if britain suddenly wanted to intervene there at a state level but i am concerned about the fact that there is there are there is evidence that within some ethnic minorities and religious communities and are not just talking about muslims certain practices of continued which were actually illegal within if you like known faith community secular britain which are being perpetuated under the cover of respecting culture but which i think are an offense to the to the individuals concerned i don't want to list them but what i'm saying is these are really big issues and i think. ok all right let's let's get a little bit more of our back on topic here i mean if i can go to you what is the

lessons that we have to learn from this tragedy in norway how do we deal with multiculturalism because you can dismiss it you can hate it you can dislike it but it's still there ok it's not going to go away ok what do we learn from this tragedy here because like i said starting out the program seeing that man's face it's bizarre i mean it's looking at you know i don't usually use words like evil ok but when you see that in a mild mannered person like that we could get such a heinous crime how do we how did he get there how do we make sure it hasn't happened again. but i think a starting point is we have to have some good. we were as a starting point we have to accept that muslims are integral part of europe ok we've got a responsibility to how the debate in or put on history i'm not saying that we can't have a debate on integration are multiculturalism yes there are issues to do yes there are concerns of those community when when we see these problems that exist in societies but if you look at brevik he's got connections to the english defense

league here in the united kingdom another fascist organization so there's a widespread connection between far right organizations here in europe and far right organization like the tea party party movement in the united states who are core telling this concept very slam is a threat to europe that he and the muslim somehow try taking over and europe and somehow muslims need to be thrown out of this continent if we accept the muslims are an integral part of all european society then we can have honest and open debate about integration but these states. attacks on the bulk of our own he charged on whole our needs on premium public these things do not contribute to an atmosphere of tolerance and i think that's a problem as a person who's liberal and passionately liberal i believe in individual freedom and choice so if muslims are being forced to wear that will come back absolutely wrong

it's not just against western laws and european laws it's against islamic laws there is no compulsion in religion or if you look in on the killings if you can force forced marriages if you look at issue won't be grooming all these issues call against the transcripts of the slum as well so it's not just western values they actually go against our faith as well rachael kohn what kind of discussion do you want to have our multiculturalism now i mean i mean again this is such a horrific crime and it was done in the name of being against it ok and like i said multiculturalism you can change the name but the proper concept is going to stay with us we don't have much choice here what kind of conversation do you want to have. to have interest in civil society about this. well i think we have to be able to discuss openly and honestly whether or not there are in fact cultures that are incompatible with our democratic practices and i and i think i don't think the onus is on our culture or people who are proponents say here it's to this

particular culture to think the onus is on us to prove that that we need to accept other cultures as being in line with ours i think the onus is on people from the outside cultures who we welcome with open arms and who we have all come with open arms for decades now to prove they know this really that was what you really deserve the obvious here is great ok if you come here from canada i was born in your own that's why so you're actually doing during this lecture don't give us a lecture about. you know lecturing you see if my culture would respect the fact it was unfortunate but i'm talking about western sir i'm talking about western culture and you claim to represent a muslim islamic culture so i'm talking about western culture i'm for. american i'm the european muslim i'm a european muslim who takes great moral i'm strictly i if you're in. here all right so you're out of the job and you know roger are going to leave her alone however roger and i have heard you all we're going to try for the last word in the program go sir go ahead look i'll just say liberalism took hundreds of years for volved the

principles of individual human rights and the tolerance to adapt to european reality is now i think liberalism is a fundamental rethink to accommodate the realities of a global society in a genuinely multicultural multi-faith europe. as it were revamping the principles teaching history properly getting proper dialogue sorting out its categories and settling the idea of hyphenated identity is roger you've given me a topic for another program in the future thanks to my guests today in paris oxford in manchester and thanks to our viewers for watch. see you next time and remember a problem. let's. see.