happening to the global economy with much stronger a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause report. if you've just joined us a very warm welcome aarti live here in moscow top stories this hour in egypt here square is once again filled with voices of discontent bring you live pictures from there the moment of people disillusioned with the outcome of the revolution descend on central cairo thousands of protesting against the military rulers and one of the biggest rallies since hosni mubarak's downfall. clashes between the regime protesters and police in bahrain finally get the attention of the international community as demonstrators threatened days of rage to coincide with a formula one race summed up the unrest that started at least a year ago would be on the media's radar if it wasn't for the glamorous sporting

event. and china turns its growing might towards the arctic as the country's prime minister tools europe seeking support for beijing's membership in the council but china's bid to enter the fight for the energy resources has a member nations. that's it for me in the news team for the moment more news stories in half an hour from now in the meantime the trial of norwegian mass killer and his brave it currently underway in oslo has inevitably brought back memories of last year's shocking attack but have any lessons been learned. asks this question both crosstalk. can. start. to. flow in welcome across the concrete a little insane or a murderous frightening fanatic this is what

a norwegian court must determine in the wake of last year's massacre of seventy seven people and his bravery clearly holds extremist ideas and is a narcissist but when one strips away his extremism much of what he has to say can be found in conservative media all through the western world when it comes to multiculturalism what is really on trial here. the case. to cross out the case in norway i'm joined by rachel martin in paris she's a political communications strategist and syndicated columnist in oxford we go to roger griffin he is a professor of political theorist at oxford brookes university and in manchester we have mohammad saffi kyi is the chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want roger i want to go to you first before we get to before the program started you asked if we're going to talk about if the man on trial in norway is insane or not how would you describe that because in looking at the trial i think

it's really spooky looking at this trial because he seems to be out worldly a very normal mild mannered person and he has he's able he's admitted to this really ugly massive crime and he still sits there like you could be sitting next to him in a bus. well i think what we're witnessing on once is thanks to the wonders of television is the state of mind of a fanatic a fanatical racist in this case could be a fanatical anything really i think a fanatic creates a sort of psychosis for himself which is very different from normal forms of insanity he has created an imaginary universe which is divided into good and evil is called a manichean worldview and he puts himself can be a she as well into the role of a cosmic warrior fighting evil and in that role he or she feels beyond good and

evil and feels entitled to good things which he or she knows in normal morality are regarded as as evil or insane but they have the confidence to know that they represent some higher truth so what you're seeing is the cold fanaticism which explains also terrible events in the twentieth century and under nancy as a more or stalin as a more maoism or pol pot fanaticism though it's a form of insanity is a very very special form which allows for somebody to behave very rationally and very strategically coherent way in a way which is not consistent with normal types of insanity came home and in listening to the way he had to say what he did was horrendous but what he has had to say you hear out in other quarters of europe all over the place in the united states too i mean this is what really bothers me about this trial is that he's not a lone wolf we he's a lone wolf and what he did but he's not a lone wolf and what he thinks. well he shares the same ideology that the far right

do share here in europe and cost the united states which is inherent hatred police and muslims which i believe is misplaced this is a vile mind he took inspiration from the far right fascist ideology and he has killed many people in an indiscriminate way and he can sit in court and try to justify his actions as if he's on his one month crusade to force muslims out of europe like i said before muslims are part of the d.n.a. of european society we are passionate europeans we want to live in this continent in peace full coexistence but we must be allowed to carry out our faith according to our own scriptures and live in peaceful coexistence and what this demonstrates to you very clearly is that there is a rise of the far right across europe and that's deeply worrying for many people and unsightly some mainstream politicians like presence of causey indifference are

contributing to an environment of hatred towards muslims. scriptures in this country rachael you think about them in paris where we just heard from ahmed. well i think there are some valid criticisms of islam that ought to be able to exist on their own without the whole fanaticism aspect and i think that's what we're losing here we're kind of mixing everything together and combining fanaticism with criticism of islamic fundamentalism with policies by politicians like nicolas sarkozy who. the full face burka in france and also some immigration policies that are expounded by the the far right national front movement in france and parties like them and they're a legitimate party with in france they're they're increasing in popularity they made the final round of the french presidential election when. father was faced off against jacques chirac and nobody was expecting that so i think although we're not seeing those kind of opinions expressed in the mainstream media particularly here

in paris a little bit more and countries like the united states because there is that idea that freedom of speech isn't harmful and that people except for the insane people can actually differentiate between a really rigorous open honest debate as controversial as a might be and murderous acts but here in front in france and i can speak for france because that's that's where i'm based now and i can also speak for canada because i'm canadian and i know that to have these kinds of open debates about multiculturalism in the press is a very very difficult thing to do because there are so many lobby groups that just refuse to allow that for that kind of non politically correct debate because it's just not nice to say and hurt people's feelings but i think we should be able to have a very legitimate open honest discussion about paul about policies related to multiculturalism and i don't really see why people would be offended about such such a debate as i think especially here in europe we're dealing with not only

a very open border free movement kind of policy particularly within the european union and also a welfare state and i'm not sure if those two things can co-exist so. you know there's a whole lot of issues here that are all a play. brevik i think to say that that an open debate on these issues leads to that kind of insanity is is to answer not give enough credit to insanity hakeem when you look like you were disagreeing there i mean the only fanatic so far is this man on trial in norway go ahead well you know muslims we want. about multiculturalism i believe multiculturalism has been a great success here in the united kingdom and across europe but you know we muslims are not frightened of debate we are not frightened of scrutiny but what we what we do not accept rachael if you look at the newspaper headlines that happen every single day you would think that the only story there are dozens of stories

the planted in newspapers on a daily basis i don't know which newspaper she's been reading the newspapers i read and have access to when you are saying what we're going to see i mean how do you design a. national i need. rachel goni please define for me an anti muslim story can you please define for me an anti muslim story a recent example just one because i'd like to i'd like to know what that looks like ok well let me give me give you a very quick example here in the united kingdom the daily mail newspaper ran a story. christmas time she said muslims want to buy christmas in one of the local authorities here in burning and i use a ludicrous story and when it went the other newspapers looked into it it was nothing into it it was a jump top civil servant sitting in an ivory tower saying that muslims might be offended by christmas and they did not speak to any muslims so these are the stories and if you want me to go you know the examples then look the more than one by terrorist attacks in two thousand and eight the british newspapers the day after those attacks said there was

a british connection the british muslims were involved in those crimes and what happened twenty four hours later there was no british involvement whatsoever and these are the source stories that you can for those of us assume that we're not going to judge here let me jump in some ways the only job really go to roger if you want me to give me a little roger. this is going to oxford i had you know come on let's all of our say look i just like three points from a hammer right you speak for moderate islam in europe which is a major probably of the majority force of islam but you really cannot deny that there is a very small fringe minority i'm not saying it symmetrically the same as the fringe minority of white right wing extremists but there is a minority within the muslim community in europe which does hold extreme antidemocratic views about the role of islam in europe and is extremely intolerant of multiculturalism and the second thing i'd like to say is that though you said that killing was indiscriminate he was very discriminant but was part of his

fanatical mindset what he wanted to take out were not muslims it was not a direct attack on muslims he blamed the labor party for. or promoting multiculturalism and he raised the whole issue of what he called the tyranny of political correctness which says that we can't even talk about these things without being accused of racism and how those two points i really would like to hear a more nuanced comment on a representative of the muslim community i feel the need at least somebody talks about these things i tend to be accused of bias in some quarters both by some muslims and by some extreme liberals of of racist assumptions and i am a fanatical liberal in other words i fanatically i fanatic fanatically i would hold rather i really was well i'm very passionate liberal really just going to say i'm. actually here but do it i'm going to some muslims are extremists

homogeneity and if you look at the world if you look at the work what should i be doing in ramadan foundation and muslim organizations have been you know here in the united kingdom we take all those extremist so yes we accept the eclipse is minority of all i'm saying is that there is a minority if you will what i'm saying is a minority there's a minority of people who are just within the muslim community who are extremists who don't believe in the democratic values and you'll believe in previous full coexistence and tolerance and what we must not do is tanisha whole faith system all the communities based on your actions over a small number of minority extremist there exist in all of your you know i'm reading what is it rachel here is like her girlfriend time care time arriba the rachel go ahead. and isn't that exactly what we're trying to do with breivik right now is to paint all the right wing people who have moderate points of view about immigration and and cultural integration with the same brush saying that this kind of rhetoric is responsible for his actions you're saying exactly the same thing

about extreme. islamic fundamentalists and how they tar everybody on iran of the muslim religion without russia and you're objecting to that yet you seem to think that is ok what is there is where on the radio are comments like i do ok well let's let's look at what is the headscarf got to do with extremism what is a i mean a lot of meat got to do with extremists what is bunny minarets got to do with extremism so let's be honest what the debate that would have been your role is abide by any symbols that exist within the muslim community if you want to debate and if you want to take on the extremists the terrorism i don't know about you is that in the community let's bring it on i'm luke would you a look would you all work with everybody obviously i mean you're going to the we're short of the radio and after that your break we'll continue our discussion on the trial in norway state are. you.

going to. the close up team has been to the spirit last legion. blacksmithing has developed from a craft into an industry the phone now r.t. goes far north of. where attempts to put roads and rail are a battle against the elements where helicopter is the only transport for medics to reach those in need. and where reindeer and fish are treasures for the. locals of the. autonomy area. and the currency crisis tough cuts. tragic integration killers. who will be left standing when the people speech. the french election r t.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for sleep you think you understand it and any glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything is all. hard luck in the big picture. and if. you want to. welcome back across the table culture magic we're talking about the issue of extremism and politics. and. ok roger i'd like to go back to you in oxford i think one of the interesting things

that we've already discussed in this program and i think we can be more nuanced is that we have extremists on both sides we have we have break we have we all. also have muslims that are extremist to do not accept democratic values and freedom of speech and many other things that we would that they would disagree with us on but you know we're talking about very small minorities on either side are they how much to what degree are they dictating the discourse about politics and multiculturalism now in europe and to some degree in the united states. well it's a really paradoxical position i mean if you just read headlines that searcher you might if you didn't live in britain get the impression of some real profound racial tensions but actually for millions of people living in multicultural brick british cities we have extraordinary levels of integration and i think there are problems of our into communal relationships in terms of genuine interaction because it's a very very tolerant society so guess obviously extremist actions and certain media

. appropriate stories to hit the headlines but i would actually make a big distinction between the way life actually is for the vast majority and the sort of headline grabbing. actions but what i'd like to take up with one hundred if i may is the idea that there's a lot of sort of muslim bashing going on which is all trivial stuff about symbols like scarves i can i just say at the risk of being provocative but this is cross it all is going we'll use it with a little roger english and we are doing is just about to make a point go ahead right here in your head. i mean this is crosstalk we don't need to be cross about it what i want to say is that is that i think that the whole issue about. integration and not to cultures and raises some very profound issues which i think the center ground of liberalism and the center ground of all front faith communities really has to take seriously which is the question of identity and it

is a fact that europe is changing demographically and in terms of cultural mix very rapidly in a way that alarm sun people and if the mainstream parties do not have and hold and encourage a productive debates about what constitutes culture and allow dangerous mist to grow up about pure englishness or what is being lost or christian society then it will leave the space the political space for extremists on both sides and i think that is a serious substantially this you know right entity is not just an issue for the far right or far left very good point mohammed you want to reply to and i know rachel always has something to say mohammed. i'm cross when the rights of women to choose how they dress are taken away from them i'm cross when it is taken away from them i'm cross when people are banned in france from praying in public i mean these these initiatives that have been driven by far right politicians across europe are done to belittle islam and to stop the free right of muslims to practice their

faith we want to defeat extremism i find up horror in the views that are expressed a by a. margin and. you know extremist organization i've been fighting those organizations still since two thousand and five i've been involved in the work to ramadan foundation a foundation has been doing but what i find even more appalling is this near obsession i would belittling islam and somehow creating a you know a clash of cultures a clash of religions we want to live in peace the christians the jews the muslims people of no faith want to been living in a tolerant society and as roger rightly so it's the last majority of people. that identity is a major issue of free how do you see the is ok you guys i want to raise i mean just as a fascinating point i was going to with respect to the lady in paris rachael why did it when i went to go everywhere but what about the identity issue here because i

think it's interesting enough that i'm i'm very left in many things here but it's a good pick roger brings up a very good point is that you know the identity issue to some belong to the right it should go on to everyone here and the right is taking it in a way down their path for a variety of reasons but identity itself is a very much in danger in europe and it doesn't mean that we have to go to extremes to mean identity changes all the time that's what we have to understand go ahead rachel. kind of an individual compared to most people around here i guess by comparison at least so i'm not too too concerned about about the collective but i think once the collective starts imposing on somebodies individual rights then it becomes an issue and if i you know if i'm walking around outside in paris and there are women with their faces covered and often it's not even of their own volition it's because it's imposed upon them they're not fully integrated in

society if only just visually they're not fully integrated in society if they're walking around with a face cover so the idea that nicolas sarkozy his government ultimately banned that face cover it encourages greater integration and actually does that culture is a very high virtue of the fact that they are you don't you don't think it's. isolationist you do it entirely should it is it is not for the way you see i mean frankly i do you think that somebody just see what i see and what i do not she promote freedom of women. is it always their choice to wear the most. i don't think it is really an interest where he has absolutely zero in whatever one chose not to whereas you're all right roger go ahead jump in roger can i do this can i just say surely if it really is a question of individual choice and respect for freedom i'll respect the right of women in oxford to wear the burka or whatever form of dress they want whatever

culture they come from what what what what disturbs me is the idea that within a particular community there is some sort of imposition of cultural norms which creates distress for those individuals and i'm not in a position to judge whether somebody who is wearing traditional dress is unhappy doing that or not and i personally would be appalled if britain suddenly wanted to intervene at a state level but i am concerned about the fact that there is there are there is evidence that within some ethnic minorities and religious communities and i'm not just talking about muslims certain practices are continued which are actually illegal within if you like known faith community secular britain which are being perpetuated under the cover of respecting culture but which i think are an offense to the to the individuals concerned i don't want to list them but what i'm saying is these are really big issues and i think what if you look at it in an ok alright let's let's get

a little bit more back on topic here i mean if i can go to you what is the lessons that we have to learn from this tragedy in norway how do we deal with multiculturalism because you can dismiss it you can hate it you can dislike it but it's still there ok it's not going to go away ok what do we learn from this tragedy here because like i said starting out the program seeing that man's face it's bizarre i mean it's looking at you know i don't usually use words like evil ok don't you see that in a mild mannered person like that he could commit such a heinous crime how do we how did he get there how do we make sure it doesn't happen again. well i think the starting point is we're going to have to go to slim . we were as a starting point we have to accept that muslims are integral part of europe ok we've got a responsibility to have a debate in or put on history i'm not saying that we can't have a debate on integration are i multiculturalism yes there are issues to do beit yes there are concerns of those community when when we see these problems that exist in societies but if you look at brevik he's got connections to the english defense

league here in the united kingdom under the fascist organization so there's a there's a widespread connection between far right organizations here in europe and far right organization like the tea party party movement in the united states who are propelling this concept that islam is a threat to europe that he and the muslims somehow try taking over europe and that is somehow muslims need to be thrown out of this continent if we accept the muslims are an integral part of of all of european society then we can have honest and open debate about integration but these states. attacks on the bulk of our own only he charged on whole our need to pray him in public these things do not contribute to an atmosphere of tolerance and i think that's the problem as a person who's liberal and passionately liberal i believe in individual freedom and choice so if muslims have been forced to work that's absolutely wrong it's not just

against western laws and european laws it's against islamic laws there is no compulsion in religion if you can only killings if you look at for forced marriages if you look at issue one street grooming all these issues go against the transcripts obviously as well so it's not just western values they actually go against our faith as well ok rachael kohn what kind of discussion do you want to have are multiculturalism now i mean i mean again this is such a horrific crime i mean it was done in the name of being against it ok but like i said multiculturalism you can change the name but the problem concept is going to stay with us we don't have much choice here what kind of conversation do you want to have to be we have to have interest in civil society about this. well i think we have to be able to discuss openly and honestly whether or not there are in fact cultures that are incompatible with our democratic practices and i and i think i don't think the onus is on our culture or people who who are proponents say here

it's to this particular culture to i don't think the onus is on us to prove that we need to accept other cultures as being in line with ours i think the onus is on people from the outside cultures who we welcome with open arms and who we have welcomed with open arms for decades now to prove that i know this meaning i was born you really deserve the obviously is a great ok you've come here from canada and i was born in you and that's why so you're actually doing during this lecture don't give me his lecture about i was not lecturing you say it's my culture with respect i know you're talking about the unfortunate but i'm talking about western sir sir i'm talking about western culture and you claim to represent a muslim islamic culture so i'm talking about western culture i'm. american muslim i know you've been muslim. i'm strictly on t.v. and soon as you destroy all right so did you get a jump in your roger again please there's a lot of really going to roger and i heard you all we're going to try for the last word in the program go sir go ahead look look can i just say liberalism took

hundreds of years through volved the principles of individual human rights and the tolerance. towards up to european realities now i think liberalism needs a fundamental rethink to accommodate the realities of a global society in a genuinely multicultural multi-faith europe. as it were revamping the principles teaching history properly getting proper dialogue sorting out its categories and the idea of hyphenated identity is the same roger you give me a top of the three you know the program in the future thanks to my guest today paris oxford in manchester and thanks to our viewers to watch. if iraqis see you next time a number of cars come. soon .

from. the. big.