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follow in welcome across not computable insane or a murderous right wing fanatic this is what a norwegian court must determine in the wake of last year's massacre of seventy seven people and his bravery clearly holds extremist ideas and is a narcissist but when one strips away his extremism much of what he has to say can be found in conservative media all through the western world when it comes to multiculturalism what is really on trial here. to cross talk the case in norway i'm joined by rachel martin in paris she's a political communications strategist and syndicated columnist in oxford we go to roger a grip and he is a professor of political theorist at oxford brookes university and in manchester we have mohammad saffi key is the chief executive in founding member of the ramadan foundation all right folks this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want roger i want to go to you first before we get to before the program started

you asked if we're going to talk about if the man on trial in norway is insane or not how would you describe that because in looking at the trial and i think it's really spooky looking at this trial because he seems to be out worldly a very normal mild mannered person and he has he's able he's admitted to this really ugly mass of crime and he still sits there like you could be sitting next to him in a bus. well i think what we're witnessing is thanks to the wonders of television is the state of mind of a fanatic a fanatical racist in this case could be a fanatical anything really i think a fanatic creates a sort of psychosis for himself which is very different from normal forms of insanity he has created an imaginary universe which is divided into good and evil is called a manichean worldview and he puts himself can be a she as well into the role of

a cosmic warrior fighting evil and in that role he or she feels beyond good and evil and feels entitled to do things which he or she knows in normal morality are regarded as as evil or insane but they have the confidence to know that they represent sun higher truth so what you're seeing is the cold fanaticism which explains also terrible events in the twentieth century and under non-answers a more or stalin as a more maoism or pol pot fanaticism though it's a form of insanity it's a very very special form which allows for somebody to behave very rationally and very strategically coherent way in a way which is not consistent with normal types of insanity people haven't been in listening to what he had to say what he did was horrendous but what he has had to say you hear out in other quarters of europe all over the place in the united states too i mean this is what really bothers me about this trial is that he's not a lone wolf we he's a lone wolf and what he did but he's not

a lone wolf and what he thinks. but he shares the same ideology that the far right do share here in europe and cost the united states which is inherent hatred police and muslims which i believe is misplaced this is a viral mind he took inspiration from the far right fascist ideology and he has killed many people in an indiscriminate way and he can sit in court and try to justify his actions as if he's on his one man crusade to force muslims out of europe like i said before muslims are color of the d.n.a. of european society we are passionate europeans we want to live in this continent in peace full coexistence but we must be allowed to carry out our faith according to our own scriptures and i live in peaceful coexistence and what this demonstrates to you very clearly is that there is a rise of the far right across europe and that's deeply worrying for many people

and sadly some mainstream politicians like presence of causey indifference are contributing to an environment of hatred towards muslims. because in this country rachel anything about them in paris or we just heard from hammad. well i think there are some valid criticisms of islam that it ought to be able to exist on their own without the whole fanaticism aspect and i think that's what we're losing here we're kind of mixing everything together and combining fanaticism with criticism of islamic fundamentalism with policies by politicians like nicolas sarkozy who. the full face burka in france and also some immigration policies that are expounded by the the far right national front movement in france and parties like them and their legitimate party with you know in france there are increasing in popularity they made the final round of the french presidential election when. father was

faced off against jacques chirac and nobody was expecting that so i think although we're not seeing those kind of opinions expressed in the mainstream media particularly here in paris a little bit more and countries like the united states because there is that idea that freedom of speech isn't harmful and that people except for the insane people can actually differentiate between a really rigorous open honest debate as controversial as a might be and murderous acts but here in for in france and i can speak for france because that's that's where i'm based now and i can also speak for canada because i'm canadian i know that you have these kinds of open debates about multiculturalism in the press is a very very difficult thing to do because there are so many lobby groups that just refuse to allow that for that kind of non politically correct debate because it's just not nice to say and hurt people's feelings but i think we should be able to have a very legitimate open honest discussion about paul about policies related to multiculturalism

and i don't really see why people would be offended about such such a debate because i think especially here in europe we're dealing with not only a very open border free movement kind of policy particularly within the european union and also a welfare state and i'm not sure if those two things can co-exist so. you know there's there's a whole lot of issues here they're all a play. braddock i think to say that that an open debate on these issues leads to that kind of insanity is is to answer not give enough credit to insanity ok you know you look like you're disagreeing there i mean the only fanatics so far is this man i'm trial in norway go ahead well you know muslims we want an open orenstein great about multiculturalism i believe multiculturalism has been a great success here in the united kingdom and across europe and but you know we muslims are not frightened of debate we are not frightened of scrutiny but what we what we do not accept rachael if you look at the newspaper headlines that happen

every single day you would think that the only story there are dozens of anti muslim stories that are planted in newspapers on a daily basis i don't know which newspaper she's reading the newspapers i read and have access to when you are saying what we're going to tell you how to design and. not and i need. rachel danny please define for me an anti muslim story can you please define for me an anti muslim story a recent example just one because i'd like to i'd like to know what that looks like ok well let me give me give you a very quick example here in the united kingdom the daily mail newspaper ran a story christmas time she said muslims want to ban christmas in one of the local authorities here in birmingham and use a ludicrous story and when it went the other newspapers looked into it there was nothing to it it was a joke top civil servants sitting in an ivory tower saying that muslims might be offended by christmas and they do not speak to any muslims so these are the stories and if you want me to go you know the examples then look the more the mumbai

terrorist attacks in two thousand and eight the british newspapers the day after those attacks said there was a british connection the british muslims were involved in those crimes and what happened twenty four hours later there was no british involvement whatsoever and these are the source stories their concerns are necessary we're not going to judge you let me jump in some ways that each of us enjoy to roger if you want me to give me money roger can give you this is going to hurt your head you know come on let's all have our say look i'd just like three points from ahmed right you speak for moderate islam in europe which is a major probably a good majority force of islam but you really cannot deny that there is a very small for minority well i'm not saying it's symmetrically the same as the fringe minority of white what right wing extremists but there is a minority within the muslim community in europe which does hold extreme antidemocratic views about the role of islam in europe and is extremely intolerant

of multiculturalism and the second thing i'd like to say is that though you said that skilling was indiscriminate he was very discriminant it was part of his fanatical mindset what he wanted to take out were not muslims it was not a direct attack on muslims he blamed the labor party for. or promoting multiculturalism and he raised the whole issue of what he called the tyranny of political correctness which says that we can't even talk about these things without being accused of racism now those two points i really would like to hear a more nuanced comment on by a representative of the muslim community i feel that the middle east somebody talks about these things i tend to be accused of bias in some quarters both by some muslims and by some extreme liberals of of racist assumptions and i i'm a fanatical liberal in other words i fanatically i fanatical fanatical what i would hold rather ironic is that as well i'm very passionate liberal you're just going to . go just as well and i actually go but i'm going to have some muslims are

extremists homunculi i'm if you look at the if you look at a word that i've been doing in iran with one foundation and muslim organizations have been doing here in the united kingdom we take on those extremists so yes we accept any political or sisal you see minority and all i'm saying is that there is a minority of people who are saying it is a minority there's a minority of people who exist within the muslim community who are extremists who don't believe in the democratic values we don't believe in previous full coexistence and tolerance and what we must not do is time issue a whole feet system all the communities based on your actions over a small number of minority extremist there exist in all three and i really want to say rachael here is larry a girlfriend time share time for everybody rachel go ahead. isn't that exactly what we're trying to do with breivik right now is to paint all the right wing people who have moderate points of view about immigration and and cultural integration with

the same brush saying that this kind of rhetoric is responsible for his actions you're saying exactly the same thing about extreme. islamic fundamentalists and how they tar everybody on the on of the muslim religion without russia and you're objecting to that yet you seem to think that it is ok what is it that is wearing on the radio of comments like i do ok well let's let's look at what is the headscarf got to do with extremism what is a i mean a lot of meat got to do with extremists what is bunny minarets got to do with extremism so let's be honest what the debate that would have you neal is abide by any symbols that exist within the muslim community if you want to debate and if you want to take on the extremist the terrorism and i don't know about you but in the love community let's bring you on i'm liquid you a liquid you all work with everybody on which i mean you're going to the was short of the radio and after that your break we'll continue our discussion on the trial in norway straight arctic.

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kate. snow. welcome back across town funeral home and you were talking about the issue of extremism and politics. which.

started. ok roger i'd like to go back to you in oxford i think one of the interesting things that we've already discussed in this program and i think we can be more nuanced is that we have extremists on both sides we have we have break we have we also have muslims that are extremists who do not accept democratic values and freedom of speech or many other things that we would that they would disagree with us on but you know we're talking about very small minorities on either side are they how much to what degree are they dictating the discourse about politics and multiculturalism now in europe and to some degree in the united states. well it's a really paradoxical position i mean if you just read headlines that searcher you might if you didn't live in britain get the impression of some real profound racial tensions but actually for millions of people living in multicultural british british cities we have extraordinary levels of integration and i think there are problems about into communal relationships in terms of genuine interaction but

there's a it's a very very tolerant society so yes obviously extremist actions and certain media. appropriate stories to hit the headlines but i would actually make a big distinction between the way life actually is for the vast majority and the sort of headline grabbing. actions but what i'd like to take up with one hundred if i may is the idea that there's a lot of sort of muslim bashing going on which is all trivial stuff about symbols like scarves i've come to say at the risk of being provocative but this is crossed also and we're losing a little roger violations we are doing here is just about to make a point go ahead right. here i mean this is cross talk we don't mean need to be cross about it what i want to say is that is that i think that the whole issue about. integration and multiculturalism raises some very profound issues which i think the center ground of liberalism and the center ground of all front faith

communities really has to take seriously which is the question of identity and it is a fact that europe is changing demographically and in terms of cultural mix very rapidly in a way that alarm sun people and if mainstream parties do not have and hold and encourage productive debates about what constitutes culture and allow dangerous myths to grow up about pure englishness or what is being lost or christian society then it will leave the space the political space for extremists on both sides and i think that is a serious substantive issue right entity is not just an issue for the far right or far left very good point mohammed you want to apply it and i know rachel always has something to say mohammed for i think. i'm cross when the rights of women to choose how they dress are taken away from them i'm cross when it's taken away from them i'm cross when people are banned in france from praying in public i mean these

these initiatives that have been driven by far right politicians across europe i don't to belittle islam or to stop the free rights of muslims to practice their faith we want to defeat extremism i find abhorrent the views that are expressed of by advocates are the hard union any other you know extremist organization i've been fighting those organizations still since two thousand and five i've been involved in the world to the ramadan foundation foundation has been doing but what i find even more appalling is this is a near obsession with belittling islam and somehow creating a you know a clash of cultures a clash of religions we want to live in peace the christians the jews the muslims people of no faith want to but living in a closed society and as you want to write in the last majority of people it. is a major issue of the whole you know usually the is here you guys i want you to read

i mean just as a fascinating point i was going to only you with respect to the lady in paris rachel well i don't know whether what i'm about to go address whether what about the identity issue here because i think it's interesting enough that i'm i'm very left in many things here but it's a pity roger brings up a very good point is that you know the identity issue doesn't belong to the right it should belong to everyone here and the right is taking it in it down their path for a variety of reasons but identity itself is a very much in danger in europe but it doesn't mean that we have to go to extremes i mean identity changes all the time that's what we have to understand go ahead rachel. i'm kind of an individualistic compared to most people around here i guess by comparison at least so i'm not too too concerned about about the collective but i think once the collective starts imposing on somebodies individual rights then it becomes an issue and if i you know if i'm walking around outside in paris and there are women with their faces covered and often it's not even of their

own volition it's because it's imposed upon them they're not fully integrated in society if it's only just visually they're not fully integrated in society if they're walking around with a face cover so the idea that nicolas sarkozy is government ultimately down that face cover it encourages greater integration actually does that. hurt you of the fact that they are you don't you don't think it's. an isolationist as you read into it should it is it is so as you see i mean frankly i mean you think that somebody just easily would see what i see and what i do not she promotes the freedom of women. is it always their choice to wear the most. i don't think it is not a religion list where i was absolutely certain whenever one chose not to wear it all right roger go ahead jump in roger can i just cannot just say surely if it really is

a question of individual choice and respect for freedom i'll respect the right of women in oxford to wear the burka or whatever form of dress they want whatever culture they come from what what what disturbs me is the idea that within a particular community there is some sort of imposition of cultural norms which creates distress for those individuals and i'm not in a position to judge whether somebody who is wearing traditional dress is unhappy doing that or not and i personally would be appalled if britain suddenly wanted to intervene there at a state level but i am concerned about the fact that there is there are there is evidence within some ethnic minorities and religious communities and i'm not just talking about muslims certain practices of continued which are actually illegal within if you like known faith community secular britain which are being perpetuated under the cover of respecting culture but which i think are an offense to the to the individuals concerned i don't want to list them but what i'm saying

is these are really big issues and i think what people you know. ok all right let's let's get a little bit more back on topic here i mean if i can go to you what is the lessons that we have to learn from this tragedy in norway how do we deal with multiculturalism because you can dismiss it you can hate it you can dislike it but it's still there ok it's not going to go away ok what do we learn from this tragedy here because like i said starting out the program seeing that man's face it's bizarre i mean it's looking at you know i don't usually use words like evil ok but when you see that in a mild mannered person like had to commit such a heinous crime how do we how did he get there how do we make sure it doesn't happen again. brought in a starting point is. good. we were as a starting point we have to accept that muslims are integral part of europe ok we've got a responsibility to have a debate in or put on history i'm not saying that we can't have a debate on integration and multiculturalism yes there are issues to do beit yes

there are concerns of those community when when we see these problems that exist in societies but if you look at brevik he's got connections to the initiative friends meet here in the united kingdom another fascist organization so there's a widespread connection between far right organizations here in europe and far right organizations like the tea party party movement in the united states who are propelling this concept that islam is a threat to europe and the muslims somehow try taking over europe and that is somehow muslims need to be thrown out of this continent if we accept the muslims are an integral part of the of european society then we can one eastern open debate about integration but these state sponsored. attacks on the bulk of our own he charged on whole our need to pray in public these things do not contribute to an atmosphere of tolerance and i think that's the problem as a person who's liberal on passionately i believe in individual freedom and choice

so if muslims have been forced to read a book called that's absolutely wrong it's not just against western laws and european laws it's against islamic laws there is no compulsion in religion if you can only killings if you can force forced marriages if you look at issue one street all these issues go against the transcripts of islam as well so that it's not ok our western values if they actually go against our faith as well ok rachael kohn what kind of discussion do you want to have our multiculturalism now i mean i mean again this is such a horrific crime i mean it was done in the name of being against it ok but like i said multiculturalism you can change the name but the proper concept is going to stay with us we don't have much choice here what kind of conversation do you want to have to be we have to have interest in civil society about this. well i think we have to be able to discuss openly and honestly whether or not there are in fact cultures and they're incompatible with our democratic practices and i and i think i

don't think the onus is on our culture people who are proponents say here it's to this particular culture to i don't think the onus is on us to prove that we need to accept other cultures as being in line with ours i think the onus is on people from the outside cultures who we welcome with open arms and who we have welcomed with open arms for decades now to prove they know this really that was what you really deserve the obvious here years of great use not only here from canada i was born in you and that's why i said you're actually doing during this lecture don't give us a lecture about i will tell jokes and they're not lecturing you see it's my culture with respect i think you're talking about and i'm thinking about i'm talking about western sir sir i'm talking about western culture and you claim to represent a muslim islamic culture so i'm talking about western culture at some point. muslim i'm a european muslim who takes. moral i'm strictly on t.v. and so does you just all right so does john you're going to jump in here roger

again please there's a lot of other roger and i heard you all we're going to try for the last word in the program grosser go ahead look i just say liberalism took hundreds of years through volved the principles of individual human rights and the tolerance to adapt to european reality is now i think liberalism these are fundamental rethink to accommodate the realities of a global society in a genuinely multicultural multi-faith europe. as it were revamping the principles teaching history properly getting proper dialogue sorting out its categories and circling the idea of hyphenated identity is roger you've given me a topic for another program in the future thanks to my guests today in paris oxford in manchester and thanks to our viewers for watching. see you next time a new member of. the two. sisters.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for like sleep you think you understand it and then even something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't talk i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture.

if. any if any of. you. to keep. track. of the folks.