here's morning video for your media project free medio down to our t. dot com. some of the headlines now here in r.t. . are below for nicolas sarkozy and losing out the socialist candidate francois hollande in the first round of the french presidential election of the past set to face off in a second stage in a fortnight so i can see becomes the first french leader to claim to win the first round for more than fifty years. because new concern from u.s. soldiers over the growing dependence on antidepressants to service eight fold increase in the problem since two thousand and five more than a hundred thousand which personnel affected. and syrian rebels refused to dance to foreign choose insisting that military intervention is really way too soon

for them to make them into for a three hundred one armed service to syria and ostrich attempts to oversee a ceasefire. but next another heated debate you know what he's crosstalk. can. you. believe. a low in welcome across our computers about a movement at odds with itself p.d.s. or the boycott divestment in sanction of israel movement is undergoing some serious soul searching what has to be d.s. accomplished since its founding in two thousand and five where does it stand on the question of a two state solution of the palestine israel conflict and does the boycott movement actually benefit the palestinians. can. start. to cross out their b.d.s.

movement i'm joined by omar now door in washington he is a political scientist and promotes human rights in cairo we have eric walberg he is a journalist and writer for weekly and author of postmodern imperialism and in london we go to gilad atzmon he is a political activist and author of the wandering who a study of jewish identity politics are a gentleman cross talk rules and if i die means you can jump in anytime you want omar if i can go to you first some israelis think tanks think the b.d.s. is more dangerous to israel then an armed palestinian uprising but at the same time same time we have people like mr norman finkelstein they calls the movement a cult and chomsky calls it a posse rises to high heavens what is it is the movement powerful is it dangerous is it relevant. it is a powerful and relevant move and there's no question about that i mean it's

actually the media some of it is born out of the failure of the diplomatic process to make any progress on actually being a peaceful solution to the israeli palestinian conflict we've had a couple of decades of it going on so far and nobody has seemed to have been able to pressure israel to respect palestinian rights and the occupation and it's going to require something significant some major shift in the balance of power to make future negotiations more possibly productive now of course there is a chance that that might be happening with all the uprisings in the arab world and a bunch of other things but until the balance of power does shift that doesn't mean that the international community just has to sit there and watch so there is a need for everyone to actually find ways to be involved directly to try to push things in a positive direction and i think that's what the b.d.s. movement is ok their reaction to the political failure and i think it's an absolutely crucial movement in which everybody can get involved in order to hopefully be able to pressure israel to end the occupation and have something substantive move forward in there on the ground ok he lived in london where do you

stand on that because norman finkelstein caused a real opera war and everyone knows his stand on. israel palestine conflict and he still he says it's a cult how do you follow him around. i think that. unfortunately . there is an element of truth in what he has to say my approach to d.v.d.'s is very ambivalent only one and i would totally agree with armor are important it is in principle. but on their other end we have slight problem. any attempt to stifle or to interfere with freedom of speech and freedom of thought. probably no ways but your probably some of your

viewers know just a few hours after. norman finkelstein expressed his criticism there were calls within the biggest b.d.s. movement to start to boycott him to boycott norman finkelstein. in the last few weeks there were similar attempts within the same b.d.s. movement to boycott myself and my walk just to remind your viewers neither norman finkelstein nor myself are israelis we are not living in israel norman was born in the states i was born in israel but i left israel. seven eight years ago and never visited it since since then. so it is very problematic now why is it problematic because we definitely we can definitely understand boycott on products yet artists and. professors owing to lecturers the writers

are not avocadoes and this is something must. become clear to people in the b.d. movement if we want to envisage a future of freedom democracy tolerance pluralism if we want to fight for palestinians in the occupied territories in gaza to come to visit conferences abroad we cannot at the same time. as we know as we know and we despise israel for doing a good progress just. ten days ago it was announced as a persona non grata by israel. barenboim was a persona non grata for playing violin there ok i mean i mean i don't like it it's i guess what you're saying is it's a very blunt object here and it's not being very focused ok eric if i can go to you

how do you feel about that i mean you know to what degree do you boycott to make a political point in make a change on the ground i mean one of the things i said in my introduction is how much is this boy can actually help palestinians. well i think the business of the cultishness is. due to the fact that there are attempts now that it has become so powerful the movement in the last six years any movement that takes on such. an importance it immediately attracts what we call gate keepers in the movement and this. this is where i really appreciate collides contribution here that he's opened up the discussion because in american culture in particular the gate keepers of the media the public opinion information this has largely be in been in jewish hands in the last out a century and of course something like b.d.s. and israel this is going to attract. this element to try and control

and stifle the the attempts to. pressure israel so i think the that's the cultishness that when it's controlled by a small group now the great thing about b.d.s. is that it is so decentralized it is thousands and thousands of groups all around the world it was founded of course it's got to be a palestinian movement it can't just be do gooders from the west it's got to be coming from the palestinians and my attitude is if they want the boycotts ok if we go for the boycotts if it means boycotting the cultural figures the culture a lot of car goes i would go along with without. the one thing also that all martok that wrote. initially the arab spring this is close to my heart being here in cairo i love narry. the most wonderful op ed in

after the arab spring here and he welcomed it he said it's wonderful now you're going to have democracy you're going to turn against. israel i realize it but that's the best thing for israel is if you have that public expression of anger of the neighbors and this is the way to pressure israel. if it's true it's not about the results here if i go back to omar here what is the results of the movement i mean are you satisfied with it i and is it just do gooders as we just heard and everyone feels good about themselves or how how helping the oppressed palestinian people or is it really is it making anything really happen on the ground i mean there are palestinians thankful but you know it doesn't change the material being and the future of their state. yeah i just want to backtrack a tad bit and comment on. comments about to take a stance comments essentially it is not to be clear about one particular point i

think norman finkelstein makes a good substantive point about the fact that there is a reason to focus the b.d.s. movement on ending the occupation because that happens to be the cause on which there is international consensus you know if you're trying to build a mass movement to deal with an urgent crisis it makes sense to focus it on something that already has a lot of international support on the other hand i do think that finkelstein's comments were problematic because of the tone that they had taken when you're describing the one state segment of the b.d.s. movement as a cult that's not particularly helpful i mean we have to get to the point within this movement where we can have disagreements with each other strategic ones without being reduced to name calling we're calling each other's each other cults or resign or sellouts or what have you you hear that kind of rhetoric on both sides and i don't think that it's helpful in any direction now just one more point real quick one was kind of comparing his boycott you know the fact that many of the b.d.s. women are boycotting him with the type of their work i don't think will stand and i think that there is a very significant substantive difference here and that is a pinkel scene that people who are upset by his comments are specifically advocates

of the one state solution who are insulted essentially by the name calling that he engaged in as opposed to outswim who has triggered calls of boycott from across the entire spectrum of the palestine's all dirty movement from people ranging from all the way to people like us who are. advocates of the two state solution. ok can i jump in here going and jump in go right ahead ok well i think i disagree with omar is that it's important for us in the west to be deciding for the palestinians whether they want a one state or a two state these are political decisions that are palestinians themselves have to take on the ground and what we can do is provide the moral support really the d.t.s. is more moral booster. when you think of how the taliban i mean air america i did jump in and if i can jump in this is one of the biggest criticisms of the movement and i guess we're talking about norman finkelstein is that one state solution means

no israel. well that's a little bit of a rational sense but some well that's a lot of people whining only thinking ok now you can't be anything like the invalid because this i i want to do this in the second fire the further we start already go ahead in line them yeah i think i think that there is a problem here is much more rare severe and soriano i don't agree with you obviously the issue is very simple the issue here is where there we endorse the principle of tolerance and freedom of speech it is very clear that neither support that i get in this movement is bust my papers are published on every almost every palestinian solidarity outlet and this is an outlet it is true that my writings are controversial and the question here is whether weekend i'll be an open movement all hour we're about to form and other to tell you terry and regina in the middle east is this our prospects for

a solution of. crisis in palestine this is what you believe in try gentlemen that's what he's talking acknowledge hollywood come to a very interesting point here we're going to go to a short break and after the actual break we'll continue our discussion on the role of b.d.s. in the towns like israel conflict state party. stands . to. claim you for screwing over seas smile grace rebirths will come home to roost. push with their massive great. empathy to sway to push the motions. towards those who live on the current. you know sometimes you see

a story and it seems so please get think you understand it and then he lives something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything is ok and you don't i'm sorry welcome to the big picture. and you can see. the future to. come across how i'm you know your mind you were talking about the controversy

surrounding p.b.s. . you can see. ok if i go back to london i mean that may help me whole controversy around the movement right now is and again i'm invoking mr finkelstein's name here and words is that you know if we if we look at the movement he believes it is deception is that the movement essentially wants they have no israel ok that's the one state solution go on what do you think about that i mean can there be a one state with both sides respecting each other under the rule of law. i. truly believe in the idea of one state i'm a true believer of the concept that was offered by a veteran palestinian israeli knesset member. shara of states of its citizens israel is not a state official and it's at the moment

a jewish state jews only state i think we can move forward in this direction but it is crucial and this is where the b.d.s. is a part of this issue we have to make crucial to make it very clear the people who are leading the move towards a state office it isn't a one state are people who are themselves and those things the notion of tolerance if mr ali abunimah is a problem with the present universal attitude obviously what it what is he going to offer israeli settler in the west bank what kind of a state is he going to offer them this is this is what i think of the crucial problem that we have to do with ok omar then essentially what we're looking at here is the end of the zionist project. essentially i just want to address his last remark clear quick i mean i don't want to speak on behalf of anyone people turn on

their own views but i don't think anybody has suggested that this would be stripped of his right to speak his mind they're just making it clear that they're not of solidarity with his views and that they don't see themselves in alliance because his views are out of what they consider to be acceptable i mean we can have that kind of disagreement nobody's talking about a totalitarian mindset you don't have to be a totalitarian person to express your disagreement with somebody else's views right now on one state and two states i think that there is a what what is the world raised about right now and they're outraged about the occupation about the fact that there is no military rule about the home demolitions about the building of settlements and that's why i think this is a better focus the world is not particularly outraged about the fact that israel is due a state this is not to say that there are not some problematic policies in which israel that israel is engaging in in order to protect that identity but it's saying that if you're going to be promoting a one state solution which is morally perfectly defensible i mean it is a good solution from

a moral perspective but strategically speaking given that it does not have this wide international support and that it would literally take decades to achieve i think the occupation is a more urgent problem to address and it's not the kind of thing that you want to take decades to result i think that's why it's very take the energies of. the occupation has taken decades already and eric if i could go to yes literally fall down on this fear because i mean this is the criticism of the movement is that if they achieve all of their goals there will be no israel i mean you know there's a lot of people that a lot of israelis are critical of the occupation but i don't think there's a lot of israelis will say let's give up israel i don't think that's realistic. well. i made a very interesting comparison in a recent article in al-jazeera about northern ireland and israel wasn't quite exact but i think what's important is to see that both northern ireland and israel are british imperial. british imperial policy. lord shaftesbury and in one

thousand century coined the phrase a land without people for people without a land israel was supposed to be the beacon of the british empire in the middle east and it's all right from the nineteenth century and it's been in the back of people's minds now northern ireland also i suppose was a kind of beacon i don't know what kind of beacon the british had in mind there but they did several of my ancestors are protestant irish and look where i and i ended up in canada as a result of your very serious you know israel has a huge geopolitical position and it's alignment with the united states and i think i like i saw the article on northern ireland too i thought it was really interesting and i thought it really missed the geopolitical significance if i go back to you in london i mean how is this you know there are people in israel that have thought about a one state solution but what would the state be called power stein and it would it would not be jewish let's go right ahead i mean you see where i'm going this is

absolutely and this is the major issue here in all the to contemplate to ask ourselves whether it is that at all possible for israel to transform tire really into one state we have to ask i was there it is this concept is that called existence jewish culture always been the israeli culture always been a bright culture and i'm not so sure about you to poland i wrote a book about the by the way some of my palestinian intellectuals friends are also very suspicious about such a such a tendency was in the palestinians. sure and this is why we have two brode ben discourse and i wouldn't let anyone not a jew or not a palestinian tell me what i meant title to talk about and what they shouldn't talk about especially those who don't even read my book and my text and try to tell us like we are entitled to talk about this is the this is the biggest issue we have to

start to ask be exact questions that you are raising in this very program and we have to debate both israelis and palestinians and zionists and people from the hamas the many palestinians are not very interested all in one state solution because they actually don't want to live there with their girls in bikinis on on the beach we have to start to to deal with their practicality with issues to do with culture we are dealing with these two different cleese too and by the way the israeli society is in itself divided into more than one culture and stories the palestinian society at the moment we have to start to deal with these issues not be afraid. to be shared my friend beef with what impetus is there for it israeli put the political lead in israel even think along these lines i mean if utopian i'm afraid i like lethal ideas but it it's about power they have to cower

to colonise continue the colonization of the west bank notes and if that's true they're one state yeah find it'll be a sinus right away by the way you are absolutely you are absolutely right about it but. the these issues are already discussed and by the way they were not discussed forty or fifty years ago thirty years ago twenty years ago the fact that this issues are discussed is because israelis do understand and many jews around the world they did may not be able to maintain this power for forever and now i would agree with. i don't think that israel is going to become a one it's stable state of its citizens voluntarily but i think that it will be pushed into it because the israelis are now already living in ghettos and why they're living in ghettos because they feel insecure and why do they feel insecure

because they brought this insecurity upon themselves and were aware of it and israel proved in the past that. it can change iraq beautifully and that this is this will take more than half an hour to deal with but again it's some elements within jewish and it grew and even new israeli culture that leads to you know such such thing that i did find this brief traumatic stress this is what you see now when you run eric i had jump in my head yes well i like to build on a point that israel is going to be pressured in. there we may not see that at this point but i look at today the great founder of b.d.s. of our people is president eisenhower because he one hundred fifty six he told he stared down israel and said we're going to boycott you unless you get the out of the sinai and what did they do they got out of sinai in a hurry and so i think eventually the u.s.

it's going bankrupt now it's just a question of when it's going to end its aid to israel and then the then the the the situation will change rapidly i think. that there will be a kilometer jump in go ahead please and if i may jump in it's a very different domestic environment in space today than it was during the eisenhower era but i just want to talk us on the one to state thing in one more time when we're talking of you're absolutely correct that when it comes to the two state solution people have been pushing for it for decades and has failed i'm under no illusions about the difficulty of achieving a two state solution. a lot of israel's settlement expansion of the extent of the integration of the occupied territories into israel proper at this point but paper talking about the difficulty of ending israel's control over twenty two percent of historic palestine what makes anyone think it's easier to get israel to give up the entire zionist project either by pressure by pressure external pressure or any kind of pressure so both solutions are pretty far fetched at this point they're both

very difficult to imagine how they could come about but if we're going to nonetheless be driven by our commitment to see justice in that region to continue to build a movement to pressure israel into some kind of sensible settlement it makes more sense to be focusing in on something that already has wide international consensus because that's the basis of the success of the b.d.s. movement the only way it can succeed is that it has enormous buy in from the entire world and israel actually feels that pressure and that to me is the important distinction. i don't mind in north carolina and. it is very it is very crucial i think omar what you said now because if you really want to talk about a vast movement we have to remember that in the parliament be i in me eighty percent eighty percent of the tory members are friends of c.s. if i conservative friends of israel in america we have enough evidence to suggest you know and we know if an academic walk on it that actually it is

a park that control dominates american foreign policy so it is much relied there if you really want to have a transformation in the region it is not sure why they did a lot is happening with israel or whether we stop a car door or israeli academics we have to start to focus to deal with the israeli power and the jewish power in western politics and this is exactly the issues that b.d.s. try try to avoid and this is my problem with b.d.s. this is why some elements of jewish elements in b.d.s. try to stop me but this is also why. i'm so popular i'm calling you i'm talking to you now in this program now there is another issue that i want to raise here i'm sorry gentlemen we've run out of time we could have used another hour to discuss this thank you very much many thanks my guess again watch and cairo and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember talk.

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