at three thirty pm moscow time these are the top stories on archie a blow for nicolas sarkozy losing out the socialist candidate francoise along in the first round of the french presidential election and now go into a second ballot in a fortnight. israel warns its peace deal with egypt is in jeopardy after cairo scraps and gas exports deal with its neighbor. and syrian rebels refuse to downsize to a foreign troops missing military intervention is no solution three hundred unarmed you want to servers are being sent to oversee the cease fire. up next i heated debate in archie's cross talk with peters out stay with us.

can. start. to come to think. below in the welcome to crossfire gang people about a movement at odds with itself b.d.s. or the boycott divestment and sanction of israel movement is undergoing some serious soul searching what has the b.d.'s accomplished since its founding in two thousand and five where does it stand on the question of a two state solution of the palestine israel conflict and does the boycott movement actually benefit the palestinians. can start. to cross talk of b.d.s. movement i'm joined by omar that are in washington he is a political scientist and promotes human rights in cairo we have eric walberg he is

a journalist and writer for weekly and author of postmodern imperialism and in london we go to money he is a political activist and author of the wandering who a study of jewish identity politics all right gentlemen crosstalk rosen i think that means you can jump in anytime you want omar if i can go to you first some israeli think tanks think the b.d.s. is more dangerous to israel then an armed palestinian uprising but at the same time the same time we have people like mr norman finkelstein they calls the movement a cult and chomsky calls it a policy rises to high heavens what is it is the movement powerful is it dangerous is it relevant. it is a powerful and relevant move and there's no question about that i mean essentially the d.d.'s world is borne out of the failure of the diplomatic process to make any progress on achieving a peaceful solution to the israeli palestinian conflict we've had a couple of decades of it going on so far and nobody has seemed to have been able

to pressure israel to respect palestinian rights and the occupation and it's going to require something significant some major shift in the balance of power to make future negotiations more possibly productive now of course there is a chance the diet might be happening with all the uprisings in the arab world and a bunch of other things but until the balance of power does shift that doesn't mean that the international community just has to sit there and watch so there is a need for everyone to actually find ways to be involved directly to try to push things that are positive direction and i think that's what the b.d.s. movement is and it's a reaction to the political failure and i think it's an absolutely crucial movement in which everybody can get involved in order to hopefully be able to pressure israel to end the occupation and have something substantive move forward in there on the ground ok you live in london where do you stand on that because norman finkelstein caused a real opera war and everyone knows his stand on. israel palestine conflict and he still he says it's

a cult how do you follow him around. i think that. unfortunately . there is. element of truth in what he has to say my approach to the b.d.s. is very ambivalent on the one and i would totally agree with our important it is in principle. but on their other end we have slight problem. any attempt to stifle or to interfere with freedom of speech and freedom of thought. probably no ways be your problem some of your viewers know just a few hours after. norman finkelstein expressed his criticism there were calls within the biggest b.d.s.

movement to start to boycott him dr norman finkelstein. in the last few weeks there were similar attempts within the same b.d.s. movement to boycott myself and my walk just to remind your viewers neither noncitizen nor myself are israelis we are not living in israel norman was born in the states i was born in israel but i left israel. seven eighteen years ago and never visited it since then. so it is very problematic now why is it problematic because we definitely we can definitely understand boycott on products yet artists and. professors or intellectuals or writers are not those and this is something that must. become clear to people in the bidi movement if we want to

envisage a future of freedom democracy tolerance pluralism you we want to fight for palestinians in the occupied territories in gaza who come to visit conferences abroad we cannot at the same time. as we know as we know and we despise israel for doing it. just. like ten days ago was announced as a persona non grata by israel. and boy it was a persona non grata for playing soccer ok i mean i mean i didn't like it when i guess what you're saying is it's a very blunt object here and it's not being very focused ok eric if i can go to you how do you feel about that i mean you know what degree do you boycott to make a political point in make a change on the ground i mean one of the things i said in my introduction is how much is this boycott actually help palestinians. well i think the business of the

cultishness is. due to the fact that there are attempts now that it has become so powerful the movement in the last six years any movement that takes on such. an importance it immediately attracts and what we call gate keepers in the movement and this. this is where i really appreciate collides contribution here that he's opened up the discussion because in american culture in particular the gatekeepers to the media the public opinion information this has largely be in been in jewish hands in the last half a century and of course something like media yes and this i mean israel this is going to attract. this element to try and control and stifle the the attempts to. pressure israel so i think the that's the

cultishness that when it's controlled by a small group now the great thing about b.d.s. is that it is so decentralized it is thousands and thousands of groups all around the world it was founded of course it's got to be a palestinian movement it can't just be do gooders from the west it's got to be coming from the palestinians and my attitude is if they want the boycotts ok we go for the boycotts if it means boycotting the cultural figures the culture a lot of a car goes i would go along with. the one thing also that omar talked about. initially the arab spring this is close to my heart being here in cairo i love narry me the most wonderful op ed in after the arab spring here and he welcomed it he said it's it's wonderful now you're going to have democracy you're going to turn against. israel i realize it

but that's the best thing for israel is if you have that public expression of anger of the neighbors and this is the way to pressure israel. if it's. going to have the results here eric and i go back to omar here what is the results of the movement i mean are you satisfied with it i and is it just do gooders as we just heard and everyone feels good about themselves or how big how helping the oppressed palestinian people or is it really is it making anything really happen on the ground i mean there are palestinians thankful that you know it doesn't change the material being and the future of their state. yeah i just want to backtrack a tad bit and comment on. comments about because the us government essentially is not to be clear about one particular point i think norman finkelstein makes a good substantive point about the fact that there is a reason to focus the b.d.s. movement on ending the occupation because that happens to be the cause on which there is international consensus you know if you're trying to build

a mass movement to deal with an urgent crisis it makes sense to focus it on something that already has a lot of international support on the other hand i do think that think those things comments were problematic because of the tone that they had taken when you're describing the one state segment of the b.d.s. movement as a cult that's not particularly helpful i mean we have to get to the point within this movement where we can have disagreements with each other strategic ones without being reduced to name calling we're calling each other's each other cults or resign or sellouts or what have you you hear that kind of rhetoric on both sides and i don't think that it's helpful in any direction now just one more point real quick that's one was kind of comparing his boycott you know the fact that many of the b.d.s. movement are boycotting him with the fact that they're boycotting can cause pain and i think that there is a very significant substantive difference here in the case of pinkel seen that people who are upset by his comments are specifically advocates of the one state solution who are insulted essentially by the name calling that he engaged in as opposed to someone who has triggered calls of boycott from across the entire

spectrum of the palestine's all dirty movement from people ranging from all the way to people like hussein ibish who are you know stuart advocates of the two state solution. ok can i jump in here going to jump in grant ok well i think i disagree with omar is that it's important for us in the west to be deciding for the palestinians whether they want a one state or a two state these are political decisions that the palestinians themselves have to take on the ground and what we can do is provide them moral support really to b.d.s. is more a moral booster when you think of how the colors i mean air america i can jump in and if i can jump in this is one of the biggest criticisms of the movement and i guess we're talking about norman finkelstein is that a one state solution means no israel. now that's a little bit all right now except for some well that's a lot of people whining only a thing ok now life can anyone imagine says i i want to do this in the second part of the further we started already go ahead in london i think i think that there is

a problem here is much more severe and sorry oh my i don't agree with you obviously the issue is very simple the issue here is where we endorse the principle of tolerance and freedom of speech it is very clear that my the support that i get in this movement is vast my papers are published on every almost every palestinian solidarity outlet and dissident outlet it is true that my writings are controversial and the question here is where we can call crazy how we an open movement all our we about to to to form in other totalitarian regime in the middle east is this our prospects for a solution. of the crisis in palestine this is what you believe in right gentlemen that's what he's talking acknowledgment come to a very interesting point here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the role

of b.d.s. in the palestine israel conflict state party. if you can. still. claim you for screwing over seas smile great three birds will come home to roost. bush when their mom says great. empathy to sway to go to the oceans to get towards those who live on the current. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so sleep you think you understand it and then something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't i'm sorry welcome to the big picture.

wealthy british style. market trying. to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with my stronger for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines two kinds of reports he. can. commit. to. welcome back to crossfire i'm curious about your mind you were

talking about the controversy surrounding p.b.s. . take a. look. ok if i go back to london i mean the whole controversy around the movement right now is and again and go ok mr finkelstein's name here and words is that you know if we if we look at the movement he believes it is deception is that the movement essentially wants they have no israel ok that's the one state solution go at it what do you think about that i mean can there be a one state with both sides respecting each other under the rule of law. i. truly believe in the idea of one state i'm a true believer of the concept that was offered by a veteran palestinian israeli knesset member. shara of states of its citizens israel is not a state official and a moment

a jewish state jews only state i think we can move forward in this direction but it is crucial and this is where the b.d.s. is. part of this issue we have to make crucial to make it very clear the people who are leading the move towards a state of the cities and one state are people who are themselves and don't think the notion of tolerance if mr ali abunimah is a problem with gilad atzmon present universe that you'd obviously what is what is he going to offer israeli settler in the west bank what kind of a state is it going to offer them this is this is what i think the crucial problem that we have to do is ok omar then essentially what we're looking at here is the end of the zionist project. essentially i just want to address his last remark quick i mean i don't want to speak on behalf of anyone people can present their own

views but i don't think anybody has suggested that it would be stripped of his right to speak his mind they're just making it clear that they're not of solidarity with his views and that they don't see themselves in alliance because as user out of what they consider to be acceptable i mean we can have that kind of history nobody's talking about a totalitarian mindset you don't have to be a totalitarian person to express your disagreement with somebody else's views right now on one state in two states i think that there is a what's what is the world outraged about right now and they're outraged about the occupation about the fact that there is no military rule about the home demolitions about the building of settlements and that's why i think this is a better focus the world is not particularly outraged about the fact that israel the jewish state this is not to say that there are not some problematic policies in which israel that israel is engaging in in order to protect that identity but it's saying that if you're going to be promoting a one state solution which is morally perfectly defensible i mean it is a composite good solution from moral perspective but strategically speaking given

that it does not have this wide international support and that it would literally take decades to achieve i think the occupation is a more urgent problem to address and it's not the kind of thing that you want to take decades to result i think that's why i'm sorry you take the elevator story the occupation has taken decades already eric if i could go to usually do you fall down on this fear because i mean this is the criticism of the movement is that if the chief of all of their goals there will be no israel i mean you know there's a lot of people that a lot of israelis are critical of the occupation but i don't think there's a lot of israelis will say let's give up israel i don't think that's realistic. well i've. made a very interesting comparison in a recent article in al-jazeera about northern ireland and israel wasn't quite exact but i think what's important is to see that both northern ireland and israel are british imperial. british imperial policy. experience in one

thousand nine hundred three coined the phrase a land without a people for people without a land israel was supposed to be the beacon of the british empire in the middle east and so right from the nineteenth century on it's been in the back of people's minds now northern ireland also i suppose was a kind of beacon i don't know what kind of beacon the british had in mind there and they did several of my ancestors are protestant irish and look where i and i ended up in canada as a result there but there is that area you know israel has a huge geopolitical position and its alignment with the united states i mean i think i like i saw the article on northern ireland too i thought it was really interesting but i thought it really missed the geopolitical significance if i go back to you in london i mean how is this you know there are people in israel that have thought about a one state solution but what would the state be called on palestine and it would it would not be jewish this is where you go right ahead i mean you see where i'm going. to look to and this is the major issue here in all the to contemplate to ask

ourselves whether it's all possible for israel to transform our really into one state we have to ask i was. there it is this concept is that all existence was in the jewish culture always in the israeli culture always been a bright culture and i'm not so sure about it at all and i wrote a book about it by the way some of my palestinian intellectuals friends are also very suspicious about such a such a tendency was in the palestinians. sure and this is why we have to grow then the discourse and i wouldn't let anyone not a jew and not a palestinian tell me what i am entitled to talk about and what i shouldn't talk about especially those who don't even read my book and write my text and try to tell us which we are entitled to talk about this is the this is the biggest issue we have to start to ask the exact questions that you are raising in this

very program and we have to debate it both israelis and palestinians zionist and people from the hamas the many palestinians are not very interested cold in one state solution because they actually don't want to live there with their girls in bikini on on the beach we have to start to to deal with the practicality with each has to do with culture we are dealing with these two different please to work by the way the israeli society is it itself divided into more than one culture and so is the palestinian society at the moment we have to start to deal with these issues not be afraid and i mean look to me sharon my friend but what impetus is there for your israeli to the political leader in israel even think along these lines i mean it's utopian and i'm afraid i like lethal ideas but it it's now power

they have the power to colonize continue the colonization of the west bank and no it's that if that's true that one state yeah find it will be a sign it's like the way by the way you are absolutely you are absolutely right about it but the fact that these issues are already discussed and by the way the well discussed forty or fifty years ago thirty years ago twenty years ago this started this issues are discussed is because israelis do understand and many jews around the world they may not be able to maintain this power for forever now i would agree with. i don't think that israel is going to become a one state or state of its citizens voluntarily but i think that it will be pushed into it because the israelis are now already living in ghettos and why does living in ghettos because they feel insecure and why do they feel insecure because

they brought this insecurity upon themselves and were aware of it and israel proved going to pass that. it can change rapidly and this will take more than half an hour to deal with but again it's some elements within jewish groups and even new israeli culture that leads you know such such thing that i define this breach are not expressed this is what you see now when you run eric i had jump in my head yes well i like to build on that point that israel is going to be pressured and. we might not see that at this point but i look to the great founder of b.d.s. of our people is president eisenhower because he one hundred fifty six he told he stared down israel and said we're going to boycott you unless you get me out of china and what did they do they got out of sinai in a hurry and so i think eventually the u.s.

it's going bankrupt now it's just a question of when it's going to end its aid to israel and then. the situation will change rapidly i think. that there will be a kilometer jump in go ahead please and if i may jump in it's a very different domestic environment today than it was during the eisenhower era but i just want to focus on the one to see thing in more time when we're talking and you're absolutely correct that when it comes to the two state solution people have been pushing for critical and has failed i'm under no illusions about the difficulty of achieving a two state solution. a lot of israel's settlement expansion of the extent of the integration of the occupied territories into israel proper at this point but paper talking about the difficulty of ending israel's control over twenty two percent of historic palestine what makes anyone think it's easier to get israel to give up the entire zionist project either by pressure by pressure its own pressure or any kind of pressure so both solutions are pretty far fetched at this point they're both

very difficult to imagine how they could come about but if we're going to nonetheless be driven by our commitment to see justice in the region to continue to build a movement to pressure israel into some kind of sensible settlement it makes more sense to be focusing in on something that already has lied international consensus because that's the basis of the success of the b.d.s. movement the only way it can succeed is that if it has enormous buy in from the entire world and israel actually feels that pressure and that to me is the important distinction here like i had i don't mind in a state of mind and. it is very it is very crucial i think on iraq you said now because if you really want to talk about a vast movement we have to remember that in the parliament be i am me eighty percent eighty percent of the tory members are friends of. conservative friends of israel in america we have enough evidence to suggest you know and that we live in africa demick walk on it there are actually. a park they control it dominates

american foreign policy so it is much wide there if you really want to have a transformation in the region it is much wider and it what is happening with israel or whether we stop of the car door or in the israeli academics we have to start to focus to deal with the israeli power and the jewish power in western politics and this is exactly did the issues that b.d.s. try try to avoid and this is my problem with b.d.s. this is why some elements of jewish elements in b.d.s. tried to stop me but this is also why. i'm so popular and probably why i'm talking to you now in this program now there is another issue that i want to raise there i'm so afraid gentlemen will run out of time we could have use another hour to discuss this thank you very much many thanks my guest today in washington cairo and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember.

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