you're watching our live from moscow our top stories israel laurence its peace treaty with egypt is in danger after cairo says it's terminated a gas exports deal over payments and prices observers say the bra is a consequence of the troubled revolution and foreign interference in egypt affairs . reports say is senior afghan official believes u.s. troops could remain in the country for another decade after the trying to fourteen withdrawal deadline problems a deal between the two governments despite widespread opposition to the u.s. military presence both in afghanistan and back home. plus france's

current leader nicolas sarkozy narrowly loses to his socialist rival france saw a long in the presidential election first round which will see the pair go head to head in a runoff in just under a fortnight the winner will face a tough job of fixing our faltering economy and record unemployment. next to its cross-talk which looks at whether a palestinian boy current group is actually doing more harm than good at resolving conflict with israel. the kick. start. to the super. low in welcome across town people about a movement at odds with itself b.d.s. for the boycott divestment and sanction of israel movement is undergoing some serious soul searching what has the b.d.'s accomplished since its founding in two

thousand and five where does it stand on the question of a two state solution of the palestine israel conflict and does the boycott movement actually benefit the palestinians. can. start. to cross out the b.d.s. movement i'm joined by omar and i'd already in washington he is a political scientist and promotes human rights in cairo we have eric walberg he is a journalist and writer for our weekly and author of postmodern imperialism and in london we go to someone he is a political activist and author of the wandering who a study of jewish identity politics are i jonah cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want omar if i can go to you first some israeli thank thanks thing for the b.d.s. is more dangerous to israel then an armed palestinian uprising but at the same time the same time we have people like mr norman finkelstein they calls the movement

a cult and chomsky calls it a pocker see rises to high heavens what is it is a movement powerful is it dangerous is it relevant. it is a powerful and relevant movement there's no question about that i mean essentially the b.d.s. movement is born out of the failure of the diplomatic process to make any progress on achieving a peaceful solution to the israeli palestinian conflict we've had a couple of decades of it going on so far and nobody has seemed to have been able to pressure israel to respect palestinian rights and end the occupation and it's going to require something significant some major shift in the balance of power to make future negotiations more possibly productive now of course there is a chance that i might be happening with all the uprisings in the arab world and a bunch of other things but until the balance of power does shift that doesn't mean that the international community just has to sit there and watch so there is a need for everyone to actually find ways to be involved directly to try to push

things in a positive direction and i think that's what the b.d.s. movement is ok a reaction to the political failure and i think it's an absolutely crucial movement in which everybody can get involved in order to hopefully be able to pressure israel to end the occupation and have something substantive move forward in there on the ground. in london where do you stand on that because norman finkelstein caused a real opera war and everyone knows his stand on. the israel palestine conflict and that he still he says it's a cult how do you follow him around. i think. unfortunately . there is. element of truth in what he has to say my approach to the b.d.s. is very ambivalent only one and i would totally agree with homer are important it is in principle. but on their other end we have slight problem we. any

attempt to stifle or to interfere with freedom of speech and freedom of thought. probably no problem some of your viewers know just a few hours after. norman finkelstein expressed his criticism there were calls within the b. this movement to to start to boycott him to boycott norman finkelstein. in the last few weeks there were similar attempts within the same b.d.s. movement to boycott myself and my work just to remind your viewers neither naaman think it's a nor my selves are israelis we are not living in israel norman was born in the states i was born in israel but i left israel. seventeen eighteen years ago and never visited the christians since then. so it is very problematic now why is it

problematic because we definitely we can definitely understand on products yet artists and. professors or intellectuals or writers are not those and this is something that must. become clear to people in the movement if we want to envisage a future of freedom democracy tolerance pluralism you want to fight for palestinians in the occupied territories in gaza who come to visit conferences abroad we cannot at the same time. as we know as we know and we despise israel for doing it to brussels just. like ten days ago was announced as a persona non grata by israel. and boy was

a persona non grata for playing violin there ok i mean i didn't like it i guess what you're saying is it's a very blunt object here and it's not being very focused ok eric if i can go to you how do you feel about that i mean you know only to what degree do you boycott to make a political point in make a change on the ground i mean one of the things i said in my introduction is how much is this point can actually help palestinians. well i think the business of the cultishness is. due to the fact that there are attempts now that it has become so powerful the movement in the last six years any movement that takes on such. an importance it immediately attracts and what we call gatekeepers in the movement and this. this is where i really appreciate collides contribution here that he's opened up the discussion because in american culture in particular the

gatekeepers to the media the public opinion information this has largely be in been in jewish hands in the last half a century and of course something like b.d.s. and this i mean about israel this is going to attract. this element to try and control and stifle the the attempts to to pressure israel so i think the that's the cultishness that when it's controlled by a small group now the great thing about b.d.s. is that it is so decentralized it is thousands and thousands of groups all around the world it was founded of course it's got to be a palestinian movement it can't just be do gooders from the west it's got to be coming from the palestinians and my attitude is if they want to boycotts ok we go for the boycotts if it means boycotting the cultural figures the cultural avocadoes

i would go along with without. the one thing also the tougher quote. initially the arab spring this is close to my heart being here in cairo i love. the most wonderful head in after the arab spring here and he welcomed it he said it's it's wonderful now you're going to have democracy you're going to turn against . israel i realize it but that's the best thing for israel is if you have that public expression of anger of the neighbors and this is the way to pressure israel . if it's. going to get the results here if i go back to omar here what is the results of the movement i mean are you satisfied with it i mean is it just do gooders as we just heard and everyone feels good about themselves or how big how helping the oppressed palestinian people or is it really is it making anything really happen on the ground i mean you are palestinians thankful but you know it

doesn't change the material being in the end the future of their state. yeah i just want to backtrack a little bit and comment on. comments about steele's gardens essentially it is not to be clear about one particular point i think norman finkelstein makes a good substantive point about the fact that there is a reason to focus the b.d.s. movement on ending the occupation because that happens to be the cause on which there is international consensus you know if you're trying to build a mass movement to deal with an urgent crisis it makes sense to focus it on something that already has a lot of international support on the other hand i do think that think all things comments were problematic because of the tone that they have taken when you're describing one state segment of the b.d.s. movement as a cult that's not particularly helpful i mean we have to get to the point within this movement where we can have disagreements with each other strategic ones without being reduced to name calling we're calling each other's each other cults or resign or source sellouts or what have you you hear that kind of rhetoric on

both sides and i don't think that it's helpful in any direction now just one more point real quick one was kind of comparing his boycott you know the fact that many of the b.d.s. women are boycotting him with the fact that they're boycotting finkelstein and i think that there is a very significant substantive difference here in the case of finkelstein that people who are upset by his comments are specifically advocates of the one state solution who are insulted essentially by the name calling that he engaged in as opposed to out someone who has triggered calls of boycott from across the entire spectrum of the palestine's all dirty movement from people ranging from all the way to people like us who are. you know stuart advocates of the two state solution. ok can i jump in here going and jumping around man ok well i think i disagree with that it's important for us in the rest to be deciding for the palestinians whether they want a one state or a two state these are political decisions that the palestinians themselves have to take on the ground and what we can do is provide the moral support really to b.d.s.

is more moral booster. when you think of how the i mean air america if i can jump in and if i can jump in this is one of the biggest criticisms of the movement and i guess we're talking about norman finkelstein is that one state solution means no israel. now that's a little bit a little that's nonsense some well that's a lot of people here lining the only thing ok now life can be enlightening guy is this i i want to do this in the second part of the further we started already go ahead in line them i think i think that there is a problem here is much more rare severe and sorry oh my i don't agree with you obviously the issue is very simple the issue here is where we endorse the principle of tolerance and freedom of speech it is very clear that my the support that i get in this movement is vast my papers are published on every almost every palestinian solidarity outlet and dissident outlets it is true that my writings are

controversial and the question here is where we can cope or is it our way an open movement all our we're about to go to to form and other to tell you terry and regina the middle east is this our prospects for a solution of affair of the crisis in palestine this is what you believe in right gentlemen and what he's talking acknowledgment come to a very interesting point here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the role of b.d.s. in the palestine israel conflicts day party. and . still. claim you first string overseas smiles great three birds will come home to roost. the bush twins their mom says the great. empathy she swayed to positive emotions.

towards those who live on the current. there hasn't been anything get along t.v. . it is to get the maximum political impact of. the full source material is what helps keep the journalism honest we. we want to present. something on. the.

welcome back to crossfire computer we're going to remind you we're talking about the controversy surrounding the p.b.s. . live can say. ok frank i have to london i mean that they help me whole controversy around the

movement right now is and again i'm invoking mr finkelstein's name here and words is that you know if we if we look at the movement he believes it is deception is that the movement essentially wants they have no israel ok that's the one state solution go at it what do you think about that i mean can there be a one state with both sides respecting each other under the rule of law. i. truly believe in the idea of one state i'm a true believer of the concept that was offered by a veteran palestinian israeli knesset member. shahrir of states of its citizens israel is not a state official and it's at the moment a jewish state jews only state i think that we can move forward in this direction but it is crucial and this is where the b.d.s. is a part of this issue we have to make crucial to make it very clear the people who are

leading the move towards a state of the cities and a one state are people who are themselves and those thing the notion of tolerance if mr ali abunimah is a problem with gilad atzmon president universe if you'd obviously what is what is he going to offer israeli settler in the west bank what kind of a state is he going to offer them this is this is what i think of the crucial problem that we have to do with ok omar going to sensually what we're looking at here is the end of the zionist project. essentially i just want to address his last remark or quick i mean i don't want to speak on behalf of anyone people turn on their own views but i don't think anybody has suggested that it would be stripped of his right to speak his mind they're just making it clear that they're not of solidarity with his views and that they don't see themselves in alliance because his views are out of what they consider to be acceptable i mean we can have that

kind of disagreement nobody's talking about a totalitarian mindset you don't have to be a totalitarian person to express your disagreement with somebody else's views right now on one state and two states i think that there is a. what is the world are raised about right now and they're outraged about the occupation about the fact that there is no military rule about the home demolitions about the building of settlements and that's why i think this is a better focus the world is not particularly outraged about the fact that israel is a jewish state this is not to say that there are not some problematic policies in which israel that israel is engaging in in order to protect that identity but it's saying that if you're going to be promoting a one state solution which is morally perfectly defensible i mean it is a good solution from a moral perspective but strategically speaking given that it does not have this large international support and that it would literally take decades to achieve i think the occupation is a more urgent problem to address and it's not the kind of thing that you want to take decades to result i think that's why i'm sorry take the energy secretary and

the occupation is taken decades already and eric if i can go to usually fall down on this fear because i mean this is the criticism of the movement is that if they achieve all of their goals there will be no israel i mean you know there's a lot of people that a lot of israelis are critical of the occupation but i don't think there's a lot of israelis will say let's give up israel i don't think that's realistic. well i've. made a very interesting comparison in a recent article in al-jazeera about northern ireland and israel wasn't quite exactly i think what's important is to see that both northern ireland in israel are british imperial. british imperial policy. experience of in one thousand nine hundred three coined the phrase a land without a people per people thought of when israel was supposed to be the beacon of the british empire in the middle east and so right from the nineteenth century and it's

been in the back of people's minds now northern ireland also i suppose was a kind of beacon i don't know what kind of beacon the british had in mind there but they did several of my ancestors are protestant irish and look where i and i ended up in canada as a result there but there is that area you know israel has a huge geo political position and its alignment with the united states i mean i think i like i saw the article on northern ireland too i thought it was really interesting but i thought it really missed a geopolitical significance god if i go back to you in london i mean how is this you know there are people in israel that have thought about a one state solution but what would the state be called on palestine and it would it would not be jewish that's right go right ahead i mean you see where i'm going this is absolutely and this is the major issue here in all the to contemplate to ask ourselves whether it is that at all possible for israel to transform tar really into one state we have to ask i was. it is this concept is that all

existence was in the jewish culture always in the israeli culture was a bright culture and i'm not so sure about it at all in iraq a book about it by the way some of my palestinian intellectuals friends are also very suspicious about such such a tendency was in the palestinians. this is why we have to grow old then these schools and i wouldn't let anyone not a jew and not a palestinian tell me what i am in total to talk about and what i shouldn't talk about especially those who don't even read my book and write all my text and try to tell us which we are entitled to talk about this is the this is the big issue we have to start to ask a day exact questions that you are raising in this very program and we have to debate it both israelis and palestinians and zionists and people from the hamas the many palestinians are not very interested at all in one state

solution because they actually don't want to live there with their girls in bikini on the on the beach we have to start to to deal with their practicality with issues to do with culture we are dealing with if we stood different please to the way the israeli society is it itself divided into more than one culture and stories the palestinian society at the moment we have to start to deal with these issues not here for you i know i've been i mean look to me sharon my friend what impetus is there for your israeli to the political leaders in israel even think along these lines i mean it's utopian i'm afraid i like lethal ideas but in its power they have to power to colonize continue the colonization of the west bank no it's that's true they're one state yeah find it will be a zionist by the way by the way you are absolutely you are absolutely right about it but defunct these issues are already discussed and by the way they were not

discussed forty or fifty years ago thirty years ago twenty years ago started this issues are discussed is because israelis do understand many jews around the world they may not be able to maintain this power saw for now i would agree with. you i don't think that israel is going to become a one state or state of the citizens voluntarily but i think that it will be pushed into it because the israelis are now already living in ghettos and why they're living in ghettos because they feel insecure and why do they feel insecure because they brought this insecurity upon themselves and were aware of it and israel proved in the past the. it can change erupted lee and this would take more than half an hour to deal with but again if some elements

within jewish improve and even new israeli culture that leads you know such such thing that i did find this breach are not expressed this is what you see now when you run eric i had jump in go ahead yes and well i like to build on that point that israel is going to be pressured and. we may not see that at this point but i look at today the great founder of p.b.s. of all people is president eisenhower because he one hundred fifty six he told he stared down israel and said we're going to boycott you unless you get me out of the sinai and what did they do they got out of sinai in a hurry and so i think eventual ie the u.s. it's going bankrupt now it's just a question of when it's going to end its aid to israel and then. the situation will change rapidly i think other people out there that there will be

a kilometer jumping ahead please and if i may jump in it's a very different domestic environment today than it was during the eisenhower era but i don't want to focus on the one to state thing one more time when we're talking and you're absolutely correct that when it comes to the two state solution people have been pushing for it for decades and has failed i'm under no illusions about the difficulty of achieving a two state solution in. a lot of israel's settlement expansion of the extent of the integration of the occupied territories into israel proper at this point but if we're talking about the difficulty of ending israel's control over twenty two percent of historic palestine what makes anyone think it's easier to get israel to give up the entire zionist project either by pressure by pressure external pressure or any kind of pressure so both solutions are pretty far fetched at this point they're both very difficult to imagine how they could come about but if we're going to nonetheless be driven by our commitment to see justice in the region to continue to build a movement to pressure israel into some kind of sensible settlement it makes more

sense to be focusing in on something that already has wide international consensus because that's the basis of the success of the b.s. movement the only way it can succeed is that if it has enormous buy in from the entire world and israel actually feels that pressure and that to me is the important distinction like i had a minus caroline and. it is very it is very crucial i think all know what you said now because if you really want to talk about a vast movement we have to remember that in the parliament we are in me eighty percent eighty percent of the tory members are friends of if i conservative friends of israel in america we have enough evidence to suggest you know and we live in africa demi quirkily that actually it is a park they control it dominates american foreign policy so it is much we live there if you really want to have a transformation in the region it is much wider than that lot is that only with israel or whether we start of the card or all these really academics we have to

start to focus to deal with the israeli power of jewish power in western politics and this is exactly did the issues that b.d.s. try try to avoid and this is my problem with b.d.s. this is why some elements the jewish elements in b.d.s. try to stop me but this is also why. i'm so popular i'm probably why i'm talking to you now in this program now there is another mission that i want to raise here i'm sorry gentlemen we've run out of time we could have use another hour to discuss this thank you very much many thanks my guest today in washington cairo and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember the last couple hours. straight.