here without to recap now of our top stories a surge of sentiment in the u.k. inspired by norway's mass killer this bringing peace to fears similar attacks could take place in britain. press crackdowns on pro-democracy demonstrators in bahrain and a lack of condemnation from western governments questions over this selective approach to the arab spring evolves. kofi annan warns of fondant in syria continuing despite the cease fire expressing an urgent need for the expansion of the u.n. observer mission there. more news in the half an hour but now a second edition of q. and a saunders exclusive new show here on our team today he has a pilot two guests with very different viewpoints.

of wiki leaks expose the world secrets these documents belong the united states government been attacked by the united states strongly condemned. illegally shoot five hundred days now being detained without charge but that hasn't stopped us. today we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow. today i am joined by an intellectual superstar the slovenian philosopher. a former anti

communist dissident now turned so described communists together we call david horowitz a former left wing radical and black panther ally now a fiery right wing zionist i want to know what they think about the future of europe and the united states the conversation becomes heated has to be physically restrained we shout rant and talk calmly about nothing and palestinians black panthers and israelis about a bomb or romney and stalin. david you describe yourself as a conservative and you describe yourself as a communist but nonetheless both of you have had a picture of stalin. spasms god is going to measuring i'm a don't mess with me and. i mean a minute shout about it out. yeah right. can't talk to

an international shop. i like go at david can you tell me what do you mean by conservative and why do you have a picture of stalin well look at the picture of stalin that was on my obvious well was his death and i'm a conservative because the leftist utopians have no idea what human nature is. and therefore when they get the power they're faced with a big problem which is that people don't go along with their program and so they kill them and put them in gulags. and. the problem with the utopian idea is the idea. of a fenced white starling but he sized me to remind me and kid maybe something marginal level even a geek based i think body mind me of this and he thinks they know that of of i

because politically expedient and you know me i don't know what to make of what's law is saying when he says that stalin is there to remind him of the dangers of totalitarian it. totalitarian strain on the left or the dangers of. that utopian ideas can lead to because he supports all a totalitarian movements in the world that i can see. you're a supporter of. the closest thing we have to nap season which was a utopian idea in the middle east you know you support the palestinians i don't see anything to distinguish the palestinians who want to kill the jews from the net seethen did you ever visit the west bank. it's the same sort of who is real isn't that right now we're going to st he said i know that everything i do is friend i

said and i can tell you what i. am not saying i must emphasize these i find it tasteless these oh but not the threat of doing good to see the truth and i would doing to palestinians this is state's place but saudi police are out of there screwed up but yes there are screwed by hamas no no good well p.l.o. here he's not going to saudi arabia i guess that's the way we go way is that i should not be angry as you're not i thought and so on is that i need only see open the space for hamas to influence them second going to blame the jews for a mosque great oh my god you see this is what i got up like i was my god i don't ever say i blame the truth you know i you know i don't know what i want to know how serious he just might be look at the situation of we mean now that iraq could be used in the strongest rather than i'm going to lose responsible for this united states that is the point is that vengeance in this the left in the democratic party

united states that went to war for saddam and against george bush when he went into iraq we should have settled their hands we should not have you know we should have occupied them for things that they have in this is a happening across the credit which i should have this is not going to syria and that we should have stuck into iran but bush came under such a talent. from the from the democrat there's never been such as seditious movement by a major american party they all supported the war not all of them but the leadership supported them or they voted in their majority in the senate and the or and then they turned against it and they lied saying that bush lied bush couldn't have lied to. about the intelligence because kerry and rockefeller and feinstein all the democrats sat on the intelligence committees they had their intelligence then

julian in in the work that we do the work that wiki leaks does we are. pushing forward the boundaries of a certain type of liberty that is we say protected by the first amendment that is the liberty to to reveal the truth about the world to protect the story to record for me to ference and so on i saw this incredible poster that the u.s. army produced which is a poster of jefferson say it was a big statue of jefferson saying the cost of liberty is a turn of vigilance that is the price of liberty and it had. giant interception systems people with guns and cars god and people looking out over the sea with with spike losses they had interpreted jefferson's statement which was that to stop a strong state we must be eternally vigilant into we must have

a strong state an aggressive state a surveillance state in order we i think i think it's regrettable that the state is so big that then our defense has to be so big i chaps a little we're going to bow but it's a reality and you know i'd like to go back to your thing about liberty and equality . of course if people are under equal if people had an equal talents an equal intelligence. done the only way to make them equal is to take away liberty that's the only way you can do it there's no other way so of course there's an inherent conflict between the liberty listening to quite look at an idea at least get in context what you think i am not for. freedom everything should be made by bleak but i think. i'm not doing d.c. all i'm saying when the way. but great power of stock setting aside the

level of she pocket is east and then selectively when simply house to put it of course we have only a scholar to do that asked the state power in the sense of saudi we have to do sort of discreetly bet that you don't know about pete and i have be we have to play this game i'm not that stupid but when obviously this that i asked east coast thinks like we can least can play a very post even though i don't see any they would also last imo if i disagree if the regulars got to be ready if we had a new revolutionary government yeah and you revolutionary government and wiki leaks manage to get hold of this going got that government and we were going to publish it i mean i'm sure you would waste wasn't what i would i would i be it would be good to me i cannot get if you spend joke yet you know what it's still difficult

for me to answer this question now when i will be part of this evolutionary government i will send you my own sort of figure who like selling say better yeah. yeah i've also heard ideas it's got to be ordered liberty it can't be but everybody just thought of that in some sense a video on the front front of guantanamo bay the slogan is on a pound to defend freedom. in iraq there is a prison camp camp liberty. these to me seem to be abuses of the word freedom and i want to know from you do you really think this is a tremendous state that is growing up in the united states is that entirely necessary to combat the rival risk competition the united states has from china from europe or or is this now

a self-feeding system you know there's the people are the problem people are the problem they're greedy they lie they're deceitful they manipulate up they you know they're egocentric we understand that and people in government i just the same dangerous people with more power so that's why we have the checks and balances and i'm i'm all for you know more scrutiny and this and that however. we live in a context the united states and israel are under attack from the international left which is very powerful for marlys dictators in south america that some boy seems to get along with. from the islam of fascists. and we live in an age when they have nuclear weapons and chemical and biological i think there's going to be and i could cast a fee that will do everything that happened in the twentieth century in the twenty

first because of this don't use don't you see the the creation of an enormous secretive bureaucracy during each other favors involved in rotating door contracts except don't you say that that perhaps can be similar to what occurred in the soviet union and we need a strong soviet union me if we eliminate competition but the fact is that look you got a leftist in the white house the guy was brought up and trained by communists whose whole political career was in the communist left you have competition you know you can't have what you think of this monolith and you know the secret that controls everything you have if you prefer to think of it as many mafias and they're all at each other's throats and that's what keeps us somewhat safe. jay briefly you know first let me state something without any america needs are some limits countries like like like russia. shut down the opposition i know and i just

against their own and i know whom you mean and i'm supporting isn't this the guy whom when he made the bush said you know the man but if i look into putin's eyes and i knew i can trust that the guy but he's just that would know what i'm saying is that look look stupid things that bush so yeah i mean i thought it was a good idea yeah ok let me go on so listen i'm unfortunately you know you like to know us and you you eat calm you nice you know that you're nice like to do. the through a position to them democracy you must know these governors like to call everyone who opposes them fascist if you did a mob this democratic oh fuck the skunk that evolution what i am afraid is that you use the word common use in the slightly similar way who advocate a little bit of critical or american consent i think establishment he's the common

extent of call you by name calling these they are only not referring you know that referring to barack obama yet was involved meaning to one stands and then he was not long winded then you have no idea of barack obama's background who he actually is if you say that because this is not just about my own well i don't care i'm not saying you guys challenge background was. just boy and who boy and i have some of them as we both know let me go briefly on but don't you think that nonetheless i think and deceased and you did as you join you in a doing something if not this is a good thing but don't you think that nonetheless for me the great savior of bush but i actually did see was that we've he's known i wouldn't use the word of aggressive sometimes you need intelligent politics that he he that he's out of he's the cape was that the united states effectively. com

came close to losing the position of unified as the. under bush you're night that states lost effectively control over latin america and so on and so on and i think and this is not i don't say to some lefties gee finally we got united states but i think we are entering even temp we're going to be due a very dangerous. weather all of these dreams diplomatic i mean is somehow the game controller for me over and again i'm not saying these should be any you know what i mean of these strangers yeah i guess i'm dangerous what did i get why this rule you'll name you not is war bad listen let's face it and for this many lefties to be let us be off your scent that it's them or whatever other european welfare state deem moderate then. if you'll permit me the european lab mark then i think even

united states during most and this may be the unique period in human he story after one of my own but with the welfare state we had of so many people in such safety. three daum and so on don't make so much fun of fuel again i think it's fine as it lasts only it was a disastrous period europe europe is a cultural theme park it's significant that's what happened that's what your welfare state that just took you out of the pot i have had personally i personally experience with the socialist dream paradise of sweden and i can tell you it is nothing like the advertising but it wasn't printed out of the official stealing from the it's something has broken down this week the swedes have no morals david striving for if you talk of the striving towards a better position even if even if that position is liberty it is more liberty that

is a striving a direction that people wish to have that they can measure contemporary events by the direction of their hopes and ideals have we now abandon that true religion because religion is there waiting in the gap to just say to seize utopian vision that people can't live with the sense most people can't live with the sense that their lives are meaningless that they just you know born and die and are forgotten . so if you're a religious person then there's a divinity is going to make sorted out in the afterlife there redemption in the next life if you're not religious you want a redemption in this life that's what the left is about it is a religious movement and it's not an accident that all things is these utopianism whether it's communism or fascism or announces already but i am or what over liberalism. it was for you a top people have to want to make things better as you may take

a lot of bishan to make a modest change so you know i'm trying to think of of one that would fit what you want to do when you want to do what you do is a radical means that can have very destructive consequences as that of most managers when you have to get you know when you can keep it and call call it but when you have put in temp and heat that in court of course you don't say oh let's try to be friendly be did not see guy dad do it from all this lee you have got a momentum i know you have to be i get asked if i don't plea and here i hope we agree at least and about all of that you thought p.s. stop for me that's why my point he's nice i'm ok this month i see as you see all of that we had a protein but then sort of catastrophic and all i'm saying we should fully consciously confront this catastrophe no easy utopian think companies only need that i owe money so i let me try to tie up these discussions and you are just going

to have a second if that is not in the end make sure that it is your man his time you need he's a communist you know and i was going to say what is the natural war is the natural condition of mankind has always been war it's right somebody from the beginning ok and many of them peace occurs only when there's a concert of powers or a single power that can intimidate would be aggressors now i ask you who would you like that power to be other than the united states. i don't know but you know i think it's no longer even the candidates for me and you know i use things get well that's right that's why we're facing such catastrophe but you're contributing it by encouraging leftists isn't the way to keep the state accountable is to have a free market in states i mean different political options different political ok and then people who don't like the conditions in one state can move to another

state they can move their businesses they can move their assets they can do that then leaves the united states is not equipped to be as as we showed in iraq we can't we can't even occupy a country we can we can barely conduct a four day war that was a six week one and we went with america is it's a country where people are so there's so much opportunity people are so busy having fun. i don't want to go to war americans don't want to go to war and i think america has to be lied into war no i actually was tony blair that that united states is crippled. in part because its commander in chief is a leftist here i expect what he said and he had yes if united states have a set of attacks and so on to go out of and sort of thing for them you it is because of people like obama who can succeed that four days into obama's

administration he or theorize these drone strike in pakistan who do you think about really is what when he came into office and actually when he was running he knew that his weak flank was the military so he picked pakistan. he has killed more civilians and the left much and get away with it because the left because the left is a religious force it has nothing to do with principle the left doesn't care about. asians being you know killed by drones you know those because what does he want what does he want to do on the streets protesting what obama schooling in pakistan and afghanistan you know beyond you know i don't have any respect for left us anymore because i don't think their principal. has any way out of the finance we have both good because they want to somebody you want to cut it because they want to mean as a social unit could because they want to vomit because you think he's

a communist leftist i'm could take a lot of obama because quite on the contrary i think that he's not the key could go that the left he's not she pretends to be a leftist he's not that's the point i know what you're talking about slob like i'm going to not listen to attack gallery i mean even when obama is doing but then just because they're a leftist even lefties out of your own class that left these friends and i thought he colleagues not my friend i don't buy this democratic left of you know no good guys through democracy blah blah blah all i'm saying is that the problem we've gave and i spoke up in the sim is steve here with us. i'm afraid what happens although i don't find this i know it isn't the problem yet the problems are going to be here forever yeah but you know there are problems and problems actually that's ok but just think you ok let's let's let's homeless gentlemen gentlemen that we saying we

have a lot of ground only we have a lot of ground point we have a lot of ground zero we have to find that fix and. then i think through this amazing that he has got to get a good deal i think that we have a lot of ground to cover and i do want to go over it ok so. david you were in the black panther and you stayed in the black panthers post well you know i was never a member i raise money for you help them you are involved in that activity and you supported them yes. you have made those bankers who can't people that know if i was a methodist. and you brought in a bookkeeper from the then ramparts magazine which you which you were editing. but even paper and i just want to draw your attention to a letter that was sent to you. in my mind you were the person responsible

for baby step sending her in to order the panthers books at this particular time was tense about to dressing her in a clue klux klan white sheet and sending her on to twitter you know this isn't this isn't that i mean that just slanderous letter by a bitter guy. you know who actually was involved with the panthers before i was it never said anything. the left will defend the cause and will sacrifice any individual in this case it was me. david do you think this this tragedy i mean you're involved in a murder i mean a murder was around you this is. something of great personally importance to him and it must have affected your your outlook on the world but i do think that you this opened your eyes to the reality or rather it khaled your perception i i was very aware of that so then he was killed in our body was discovered in february one

thousand nine hundred seventy five. i mean i didn't do anything politically after that for the next. nine years. i voted for reagan in one thousand nine hundred four and that's when i emerged as a conservative of course i came under tremendous attack from the left but i hadn't said anything. was going to say i hadn't said anything negative hadn't done any political activity attacking the left in all those nine years because i was very aware that i was. you know i felt i had been betrayed by the movement i felt guilty. when i had supported. so i waited till i was relatively cool and you know it's in your character to show

if you're passionate or not but that david is that you started writing biographies after ben believe on patients with into rockefeller's now the big american family right i mean when you started writing all those biographies did you interview members of those well connected families yes you moved into a new sort of orbit as a result of your gardener and. i really have remained pretty much the same all my life i didn't move into ending the war but i mean i did i did i had to i lost every friend that i ever had as as a leftist and that was a mid-life. so mater reconstituted might make friendships i think that's a big factor that keeps people in the left is that they know that if they cross the line they're going to lose it well their friends. well.

i mean what yeah just. ok ok all right sorry about that no problem i am for about anything weak human face but you will be allowed to do that got you know because it is you know that's going to put down and activism are what you do at all i have to go to universities with bodyguards because of the fascist left in this country i have assassination threats a lot of i'm the only guy in d.c. now that i was physically assault that by i think i have to be a communist by can you need some kind of a nationally so i might come on and not getting like you david here will you be voting for in the upcoming election. well we don't have a candidate yet well i mean amongst the cat amongst the candidates oh i think romney is the best chance to beat this guy it's a big debate about yeah i'm not i'm not happy with anybody i agree here with you

it's very tragic and really maybe even betting the long term for the vitality of the night that states that it probably can it looks to me like the east simply wasn't able to produce a candidate which would have enough growing force and it's very sad i mean i don't i look happy about the i'm angry it's too good thank you. so you know visiting he's not going to want to spend the commune east he's a socialist with a few women facepalm these are always thought i don't think he said so something because you don't think there's no you know mr farnum is my good frocks growing up that you think. ok thank you by the way you. write. you know but you know you have to do a little bit of study and it's part of the sort of madness here i don't want to go it.

just. plays be a staple to you on the plane unions to t.v. look fly you out or something you know so i think it's time to raise this space. download the official anti happily cation to i phone or i pod touch from the i.q. exams to. teach life on the go. video on demand ati's mind bold costs and r.s.s. feeds now with the palm of your. question on the t. dot com.