welcome to the big picture. three thirty pm in moscow the headlines france's new socialist president. but in a few hours. our house. says greece struggles to form a government pushes it closer to winning. the violent clashes erupt as thousands of palestinians march in the west bank as they commemorate the day they call a task for free or not but day to day thousands more are wounded when israel was created. whistleblower takes on illegal rendition and double standards when it comes to determining. that program filmed and produced by julian and

his team comes your way next one of the guest spent years without trial in guantanamo bay which prompted us to draw parallels with his own detention and the controversial debate the wiki leaks founder and his guests share their personal views on the mechanism of the war on terror its victims and beneficiaries stay with us. i'm julian assange. it is true of wiki leaks where they expose the world secrets these documents belong the united states government being attacked by the powerful united states strongly condemn us going after white people illegally shoot five hundred days now i've been detained without charge but that hasn't stopped us

. today we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow or. this week i have to visit his most am big was imprisoned for using guantanamo as an al qaeda suspect after pressure from the u.k. he was released without charge in two thousand and five. together with naseem corish a former corporate lawyer he now campaigns for the war on terror detainees with the organization cage prisons the rule of law and due process essential to their campaign and i want to know how this fits in to be sure real if the muslim people formed a superstate what would the legal system look like. when you were in guantanamo you signed a confession i was armed and prepared to fight alongside the taliban and al qaeda against the u.s. and others and eventually you're treated to tora bora to flee from u.s. forces when our front lines collapsed i knowingly provided comfort and assistance

al qaeda members by housing and families distributed ok to propaganda and received to members from terrorist camps knowing that certain trainees could become al-qaeda operatives and commit acts of terrorism against the states. so that. the language. no i don't normally because it sounds like it comes from the statute but you know what brought me to the point where i would sign something like this was being tied up with my hands with life behind my back to my legs with a hood placed over my head being punched and kicked and listening to the sound of a woman screaming next door i'm told is led to believe is my wife my children's pictures being waved in front of me and being asked by these interrogators when do you think you're going to see them again what do you think happened to them the night that we took you from the. way do you think they're all right now when all of these influences which clearly suggests to me that the only way out is

to either give up and. sign whatever it is that they want me to do or to talk to resist and to hell with what happens to my family so that's was a stark choice that i was presented with and in the light of that of course you know so we got out. joined cage prisoners and forty four of the people that you know you went on everyone else were. to be released or treated to process and so now we have this sort of rowing critical position where we discovered we were it's embassy cable from two thousand and ten you. know this is from the embassy u.s. embassy in luxembourg right back to washington you had been in luxembourg campaigning for luxembourg to take. a very detailed.

big is doing our work for us he's articulate reason presentation makes for a convincing argument is ironic that after four years over the present knowledge torture. is the livery the same message to. government of luxembourg as we are please consider accepting good motive for resettlement how does that make you feel that the bar of ministration. sees you as their ambassador. well it doesn't do a great deal for my street credibility as a book but suffice to say that if the words of the u.s. ambassador had been taken there would be one thing but i'm pretty certain that i'm still regarded as an enemy combatant so let's talk about this extreme targeting. prisoners role is to try and. try try to get prisoners released or have at least have to process troopers for them to advocate on their

behalf. but now we see the u.s. administration is using drone strikes to kill muslim radicals around the world. is cage prisoners out of a drop because you know you prison so many guantanamo bay they become a political problem you know if you kill them you know political problem just to the point of death but afterwards no man or problem we wish that we were out of a job i mean we love to get a job and this is the sort of thing that every day when you're when you're dealing with cases they are very painful to deal with us individuals in this war and the family members of people we have located for. i used to say that. bush was the president under whom extra judicial detention was taking place and obama is the president under whom extra judicial killing is taking place so obama did promise a change when he said change has come to america and this is it the changes from

extra judicial detention tax judicial killing from two thousand and six rarely. used. you know quite a fiery language when we see our brothers and sisters fighting in chechnya iraq palestine kashmir afghanistan then we know where the example lies but you see his blood defeating the armies of israel we know what the solution is and where the victory lies you know it is incumbent upon us to all of us to support the jihad of their problems and sisters in these countries where they are facing a version by the west. that i saw that video and to me it looks like a fiery muslim preaching jihad. why did you say this sort of bombing this comes in the context of. the israelis having bombed qana and in the cold masses of civilians this is in two thousand and six now i want

you have to understand is that you know as far as muslims are concerned at the moment you know they are under attack in countries you know all over the world oh you know hundreds and thousands of people dying and i think to be our concept of just you know at least in its current iteration is that you know as muslims we have the right to defend ourselves you know there is no no point of saying that you know these people are being killed that is a not to pay for including your domination racism taking place and that these people they should be allowed to defend themselves of issues keep being slapped and killed and raped and that they're not allowed to defend it and defense here means military resistance of course and all of these countries should be not i mean that's on the full the full speech and i and i talk within that speech as well about how we as muslims in the u.k. you know should be supporting you know these people by lobbying by campaigning by effectively trying our best to support them and i and i very much believe that you

know it's part of our obligation to do so when the point is that it's not about conflict being the solution and that's something that you know we advocate against ourselves myself particularly i don't believe that violence is a solution a dialogue is the only solution however at the same time i believe that everybody has a right to defend themselves but what about his defense as an example in chechnya this attack on the school of course three hundred seventy people died i mean it is there are all sorts of military problems in church near the article about iran and i would use a tart very would say from those church interests very were defending. in that meadow i mean. is that type of defense. it's not something that i i i agree with myself i don't think islam included it's the right way of going about doing things. i don't live in those circumstances i can't jurisprudential

make a statement about i'm not a muslim scholar you know i disagreements with you know the way all the uses its tactics around the world i don't think it's productive in terms of what it's trying to what the end goal is trying to achieve at the same time the general concept and this is what i was talking about in that speech is a you know people have a right to defend themselves you know and they should not be denied that right simply because you know america believes that it holds the moral authority in the world and that's the point that i think there's an interesting point to be made just about jihad because it's this term that's so. so so so blatantly and without people really understanding what it is and we supported you let's just admit this the british government both of them were generating fighters in the seventy's and eighty's trained them by the s.e.s. in in snowdon britain supported jihad again just a few months ago when they were supporting. would you even fighters who call themselves mujahideen in libya against gadhafi so you've got this play with words

to within the media that will jihad is bad except when we say it is and this is the sort of thing that we as cage prisoners as an or as an organization that's part that's muslim like to introduce and explain to people that you're being hoodwinked by the politicians and the media when they use the term belief system so like you treat christians. what did bush do right. you know he would argue. there were no terrorist attacks or any significance on the mainland of united states post two thousand and one. and. how did he achieve that well if i was arguing his side i would say. that by all sorts of surveillance preventative detention terrorizing people absolutely terrorizing people with examples of guantanamo bay

detention without trial. executions eccentric i think in your arms deal question what did bush do right. i don't know if he did anything right in terms of the want or there was a push prior to that and it's interesting you got some al qaeda type scholars in saudi arabia have actually said that we supported you coming to power that's interesting that they actually said we were happy when you came to power you seem to be a person who was of the same mind as us and then he of course he said that they also were yes yes he said that this crusade is going to take a while and once he said that everything went wrong from that point on it's one of our want to bring along the road. well if you take a look at what he did at the time when the soviets occupied afghanistan and iraq supporting him he did everything right put up point on which he did everything right because he was being supported by the west and it was the evidence for it

what he did wrong and i don't mean what the worst of it were you know i know you believe in it i know and i think i was right too i think that was right to the afghans to be able to break themselves with the support of everybody was open it was was absolutely right but as far as. the ordering of of the attacks if that's what he did and that's still i don't know in my mind it's not been established because he didn't have due process. if that's what he did it was wrong because it started a chain reaction that we've not been able to recover from since. but why do you think that he was a leader. why was he successful i don't know if he was the leader first of all i mean i think that the perpetuating myth of al qaeda in the muck in the new europe and all of the al qaeda franchises were all part of well if you're going to say we're all caught it will be al-qaeda but i don't think it really existed in the way that we've been told and there's a great myth about how big it was and its reach is as a person as

a figurehead for people. people simply saw if you go in the muslim world the attitudes of different people me most of them don't agree with nine eleven they don't agree with targeting civilians and there's been a. that taking place in the muslim also agree with it in the muslim world and before nine eleven was you what was the world i don't think he was i don't think was greatly known i think. if anything in the gulf countries and those people had been part of the struggle the fight to get the jihad against the soviets he was known in that circle of people definitely because of his personal sacrifice and his integrity and all of the things that he'd done which you would not expect a very a billionaire to do but after that i think is influence as being. if it's been seen for. something greater than it really is people were going to it was the united states didn't just attack with some bin laden that into school after they went after nations and they killed tens of thousands of people in the process

so bin laden may have come and gone it's irrelevant because those symptoms that bin laden was addressing are still there. would you primarily describe yourselves. as music liberation of those people who like. for processes intellectuals. all of the above. you know i think some of the those things don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive to one another you know being muslim means standing up for justice means being a little bit radical ilsa means being a little bit conservative if you know all of those things the same time you know you know god says in the koran that be just even if it goes against yourself that's a very very important part of who we are what our character is that and even if it meant. effectively having to give evidence against ourselves in some way that we

would always do what was most unjust in any circumstance and that's that's how we formulae are our courage is justice is in many ways more important than than many other things if they didn't make it or ins struggling for individuals liberation from the imprisonment and being imprisoned if you will so. in the struggle for people's liberation a group of people racially. do you think this is incompatible with. submission to god. you are in britain and thus you have to deal with other wills of other people and other governments to submit to your story i find it extremely disconcerting and annoying. but don't you find it a annoying to submit to the will of god well let's we we all have one

human being we have to submit to something we all have to submit to some kind of law all the time and and i think when we my point is about the muslim world in particular and not about the west has nothing to worry about in terms of of of us communities living here we understand the rules and regulations and we submit to them even if we don't like it in some cases. but we're talking about in the muslim world i think that's really important to recognize and right across from the moderate all the way to indonesia that is a massive population so one fifth of the world's population want this and that's just from within the muslim community let alone what sort of they want what they want they want but i'm saying that they want islam or their religion to be a part of their life in terms of governance and in terms of their daily living routine and i think that's a choice that we should respect the problem is we have not respected that for the past hundred or so years so what do you think about the desire to unite muslim

peoples into one islamic caliphate. and one central point i suppose of rule of law and law being sure due to see that as a possibility. i mean. i think right now the way that we're seeing how the muslim communities around the world are developing i mean especially i think the arab spring has given muslims a lot to think about you have different phenomena emotionally emerging in each country in it and it's very very different from place to place so what's happening in tunis and russia the whole new she is very very different to what's happening in egypt and. now the muslim brotherhood and the nor party so i think what what we're seeing is that the kind of. statements that were made previously you know a lot of muslims will agree generally speaking with the concept of the muslims

uniting together that you know the reestablish when or how to fade in these are very kind of you know all the docs positions that you know people have always held but what is the substance of those positions how does that formulate in terms of the modern world and we're going to be watching muslims all over the world what's happening to israel what's happening in egypt what's going to happen in in libya as they try to organize themselves but with a lot of interest because these guys are going to actually for the first time really have the authority to try and in a normative way. up. you know what the problem shelia requires of us as muslims along side living in a western in a modern world what does your ideal system is it common law sharia law some amalgam between the two is a big questions and you know we mostly deal with the issue of people detained

without charge at all and stick to it we can't we don't really that's not part of our remit is not solving the world's problems but you know speaking on a personal level i think this is the great fear the great when they talk about the system of the caliphate if it gets terrified but in essence what would it be it would be a union of countries where they all speak arabic for goodness sake if in europe we've got fifty different languages and people are trying to come together and have no states and one monetary union so we're wondering to introduce the european union has caused me a bit of grief of course because of course that yes an extradition warrant which allowed people to to be in freely yes. big super states are actually the way to go right it's not to be is to hear the difference i mean what i'm talking about is that what what what links moral code. to iraq what are the links cultural and most important language most everybody you know you can go to more can speak

arabic and speak arabic or and every country right in between there is something and that's a unique fabric of our society if and what separates us in europe is the language it's primarily language us and so you've got that because it historically it used to be there before and if you look at the countries that i mean they already. what would be the new thing what would be new it is the is the unity would not be based upon their own personal nationalism this would be the difference because that's what we used to be like before then nationalism the only thing installed after somebody came along and on the map of africa drew a line and said your libyan your algerian your so and so they if they are able to return to in the modern context of course to something that allows that sort of unity it would give them a great deal of strength and i think that's where the worry is in terms of the west is that we will have another powerhouse he established and a sudden doorstep that we don't want a lot of thought about what type of role or. if usage someone are not talking

about that is actually practical to implement now you know if you if you were going to last for a day. or would you really use those terms of reference for. islam is a normative legal system just like any other that we have effectively statute and case law like any other normative legal system anywhere in the world and so for us there is a route more that we have to follow you know and in many ways some of the complaints they often hair about the way that islam is is implemented the is implemented is the fact that it it totally goes against. what the rule of law requires from the from the sharia from the from the moment to legal system itself so for example you know when you consider the. stoning for adultery. the requirement the evidentiary standard is for live witnesses to the act of sexual

relations at the time that it's taking place from a database from perspective it's almost impossible to establish that and this is some kind of party that's going to look at where it is you know it's very very difficult to establish that criteria so the fact that you have in this book to punish for that punishment turning to death yet the punishment even taking place means that effectively the rule of law is being abused at some point because it's impossible to establish that if you don't treat the standard but i would be regarded as starving to death i mean the whole point is that that was never envisaged really do you would agree i know you lie i agree with islamic concepts of of of how we practice our punishments generally speaking of doubt whether or not they even gave it was a really important thirty dollars or so i was reporting. carried well not even prepared to preserve your personal peace and these are exactly what actually. really are your personal opinion is the death penalty is ok but from an islamic

perspective yes as long as all the true persons and women saw meant then it can be depending on if all the elements are there i think you know what happens when that when people discuss sharia it's. everybody discussing. punishment all the punishment the hoot so what we're talking about here is the hood or the punishment aspect that's not sheria the show is the law. you know the whole the right right right is the whole process is what i want to get here and none of us none of us really sort of qualified to talk about it in the way that it should be discussed in terms of of the country establishing itself and formulating these rules and primarily because no country has applied them since the fall of the you know the caliphate of the ottomans so it's in essence a theoretical discussion that's something you do you think develop this the go back to the origins of the old and co of it. the absence of.

islamic state. that most people would want to leave it seems. that you agreed to talk to me maybe look let me tell you a very interesting point when there was a when the caliphate was abolished one of the few wasn't called the art of hell it was a polished when the first people to advocate for it was one hundred k. gandhi and the reason why is because he understood that was this was something that was central to the fabric of islamic history. and so i think the call for the establishment of a caliphate or perhaps not even using that word but a united muslim bloc is something that most people would want and i think to use humans would go. we're muslims we're in the news you speak we speak a bit of french. bit of arabic. and we want so determination self-determination. is best met by not showing up too much

with egypt which was not made in egypt i think of course that's you know and the arabs have attempted it they've tried to do the different organizations sort of just arab unity but this goes beyond arab unity and this is i'm talking about islamic unity which includes turks it includes iranians it includes pakistanis and in the news it's huge it's massive but why have unity well why would europe want to do the whole point of unity there but i think there will be and i think the reason you're wanted you to actually was set up by the states to make the united states of europe that would be economically powerful on the right in order to combat the soviet union that's why i think and i think i think that the reason and now now it's it's a trade block right the reason for unity would probably be. economics of course defense of course. and you know this is a harking back to history where you could travel from one point to the other unhindered because you are a citizens of even

a citizen of this land and that this land isn't divided based upon colonial principles so you go you get a passport well i don't i don't know you know that i don't know about that but i mean it's just the same ways as if you have in europe you have the ability to travel within europe and very very freely part of your own they don't generate to work in my country right or. possibly. ok so now let's come back to cage for the there's all sorts of things to do in life why are you doing it. so simple. as opposed to corporate lawyers. changing quite radically but i mean seeing one time i'm seeing indefinite suspension not charged in the u.k. extradition act you know all of these things common in telling you well actually the norms being abused here and for very specific purposes and all of that kind of convinced me that i need to be involved something that was working against these these policies and cage prisons and it's an important voice for muslims empowering

boys is one that we hope tells muslims that you can actually stand up for yourself you can stand up for for the right thing without feeling as if you're doing something criminal i think for me it's obvious that it's part of something that i've been affected by something that i constantly even if i didn't want to do it i'd be affected by it to this day so that it's something that i think people would say that it's something called survivor's guilt that you will survive a particular trauma but other people left in that situation are not surviving so you have an obligation upon yourself to fight for them i hope i feel i have a lot just a moral and religious but also an ex duty based upon the experience and ability. if i know i can do it but i have to do it and i think i'm.

just interested if you like what he. thought the plan if if you will you know god protect you but if you're sent over there to to do us. well fla two science technology innovation all the latest developments from around russia we've got the future covered. me it's easy to. see he. seems.