cops past the hour now you're with r t and me karen. political turmoil in greece threatens to crash the hopes of a united europe zone despite the german chancellor and the new french leader vowing to battle the crisis together however austerity is keeping them at all it's. thousands of police marches to demand their rights as a massive number of officers will soon be given the boot. and the former bosnian serb general about to go on law which faces the hague court is accused of war crimes during the yugoslavia war in the one nine hundred ninety s. . next week he leaker julian assange brings us the latest edition of his talk show

one of his guest spent years without trial in guantanamo bay which prompted a song to draw parallels with his own detention. i'm julian assange. that is true of wiki leaks expose the world secrets these documents belong the united states government being attacked by the powerful united states strongly condemn this going after white people illegally shoot five hundred days now i've been detained without charge but that hasn't stopped us. today we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas to can change the world tomorrow or. this week

i have to visit his most am big was imprisoned for using guantanamo as an al qaeda suspect after pressure from the u.k. he was released without charge in two thousand and five. together with naseem corish a former corporate lawyer he now campaigns for the war on terror detainees with the organization cage prisons the rule of law and due process is essential to their campaign and i want to know how this fits in to be sure real if the muslim people form to superstate what would the legal system look like. when you were in guantanamo you signed a confession i was armed and prepared to fight alongside the taliban and al qaeda against the u.s. and others and eventually you're treated to tora bora to flee from u.s. forces went out front lines collapsed i knowingly provided comfort and assistance al qaeda members by housing the families distributed ok propaganda and received members from terrorist camps knowing that certain trainees could become al-qaeda

operatives and commit acts of terrorism against that state. so that. but language. no i don't normally because it sounds like it comes from a statute but you know what brought me to the point where i would sign something like this was being tied up with my hands with life behind my back to my legs with a hood placed over my head being punched and kicked and listening to the sound of a woman screaming next door i'm told is lead to believe is my wife my children's pictures being waved in front of me and being asked by these interrogators when do you think you're going to see them again what you think happened to them the night that we took you from. what you think they are right now what all of these influences which clearly suggests to me that the only way out is to either give up and. sign whatever it is that they want me

to do or to to to resist and to hell with what happens to my family so that's was a stark choice that i was presented with and in the light of that of course you know so we got out. joined cage prisoners and fought for the people that you know you went on and one elsewhere to be released or treated to process and so now we have this sort of rowing credible position where we discovered a. worse embassy cable from two thousand and ten. and this is from the embassy u.s. embassy in luxembourg right back to washington you had been in luxembourg campaigning for luxembourg to take the very detainees. who used to be doing our work for us he's articulate reason presentation makes for a convincing argument is ironic that after four years over the present knowledge

torture most of the livery the same message to. the government of luxembourg as we are please consider accepting a good motive for resettlement how does that make you feel that the bar of illustration. sees you as their own best. well it doesn't do a great deal for my street credibility as a book but suffice to say that if the words of the u.s. ambassador had been taken that would be one thing but i'm pretty certain that i'm still regarded as an enemy combatant so let's talk about this extreme targeted. prisoners role is to just to try and. try try to get prisoners released or have at least a few person troopers for them to advocate on their behalf. but now we see the u.s. administration is using drone strikes to kill muslim radicals around

the world. is cage prisoners out of a drop because you know you present someone in guantanamo bay they become a political problem for you if you kill them through a political problem just at the point of death afterwards no manner of problem we wish that we were out of a job i mean we would love to get a job and this is the sort of thing that every day when you're when you're dealing with cases they are very painful to deal with us individuals in this war and the family members of people we have located for. i used to say that. bush was the president under whom extra judicial detention was taking place and obama is the president under whom extra judicial killing is taking place so obama did promise a change when he said change has come to america and this is it the changes from extra judicial detention decks judicial killing. two thousand and six rarely. used. you know quite

a fiery language when we see our brothers and sisters fighting in chechnya iraq palestine kashmir afghanistan then we know where the example lies you see has blood defeating of israel we know what the solution is and where the victory lies you know it is incumbent upon us to all of us to support the jihad of our problems and sisters in these countries where they are facing a version by the west. that i saw that video and to me it looks like a fiery muslim preaching jihad. why did you say this sort of bombing this comes in the context of. the israelis having bombed qana and in the cold masses of civilians that this is in two thousand and six now i want you have to understand is that you know as far as muslims are concerned at the moment you know they are under attack in countries you know all over the world oh

you know hundreds and thousands of people dying and i think to be our concept of just you know at least in its current iteration is that you know as muslims we have the right to defend ourselves you know there is no point of saying that you know these people are being killed that there is a not to pay for including your domination racism taking place and that these people they should be allowed to defend themselves of issues keep being slapped and killed and raped and that they're not allowed to defend it and defense here means military of resistance of course and all of these countries should be not i mean that's on the full the full speech and i and i talk within that speech as well about how we as muslims in the u.k. you know should be supporting you know these people by lobbying by campaigning by effectively trying our best to support them and i and i very much believe that you know it's part of our obligation to do so when the point is it's not about conflict being the solution and that's something that you know we advocate against ourselves

myself particularly i don't believe the violence is a solution a dialogue is the only solution however at the same time i believe that everybody has a right to defend themselves but what about his defense as an example in chechnya this attack on the school of course three hundred seventy people died i mean it is really all sorts of military problems in church near the article about iran and i would bet it is a target very would say from those church and terrorists very were defending. in that memo i mean. is that type of defense would. well. it's not something that i i i agree with myself i don't think islamic law it's the right way of going about doing things. i don't live in those circumstances i can't. make a statement about this i'm not a muslim scholar you know i disagreements with you know the way all the uses its tactics around the world i don't think it's productive in terms of what it's trying

to what the end goal is trying to achieve at the same time the general concept and this is what i was talking about in that speech is a you know people have a right to defend themselves you know and they should not be denied that right simply because you know america believes that if it holds good moral authority in the world and that's the point that i think is an interesting point to be made just about jihad because it's this term that's so. so so so blatantly and without people really understanding what it is and we supported you let's just admit this the british government bought over one hundred fighters in the seventy's and eighty's trained them by the s.e.s. in in snowed in britain supported jihad again just a few months ago when they were supporting. would you even fighters who call themselves being in libya against gadhafi so you've got this play with words to within the media so it will jihad is bad except when we say it is and this is the sort of thing that we as cage prisoners as an or as an organization that's part

that's muslim like to introduce and explain to people that you're being hoodwinked by the politicians and the media when they use the term belief system so like you treat christians. what did bush do right. you know. he would argue that. there were no terrorist attacks or any significance on the mainland of united states post two thousand and one. and. how did you choose that well if i was arguing his side i would say. that by all sorts of surveillance preventative detention terrorizing people absolutely terrorizing people with examples of guantanamo bay detention without trial. execution eccentric i think in your answer to your

question what did bush do right. i don't know if he did anything right in terms the want or there was a push prior to that and it's interesting if you've got some al qaeda type scholars in saudi arabia have actually said that we supported you coming to power that's interesting that they actually said that we were happy when you came to power you seem to be a person who was of the same mind as us. and then he of course he said they also were yes yes he said that this crusade is going to take a while and once he said that everything went wrong from that point on it's one of the i didn't want to bring long to write. well if you take a look at what he did at the time when the soviets occupied afghanistan and iraq supporting him he did everything right put up point on which he did everything right because he was being supported by the west and it was the evidence for it what he did wrong and i don't mean what the worst of it were you know i know you believe it and i know and i think i was right too i think that was right to the

afghans to be able to break themselves with the support of everybody was open it was was absolutely right but as far as. the ordering of of the attacks if that's what he did and that's still i don't know in my mind it's not been established because he didn't have due process. if that's what he did it was wrong because it started a chain reaction that we've not been able to recover from since. but why do you think that he was a leader. why was he successful i don't know if he was the first of all i mean i think that the perpetuating myth of al qaeda in the microwave and then europe and all the al qaeda franchises were all part of well if you're going to say we're all caught it will be al-qaeda but i don't think it really existed in the way that we've been told and there's a great myth about how big it was and its reach is as a person as a figurehead for people. people simply saw if you go in the muslim world the attitude to different people me most of them don't agree with nine eleven they

don't agree with targeting civilians and there's been a. taken place in the most i'm also the angry with little in the muslim world brought him before nine eleven was he what was he well i don't think he was i don't think was greatly known i think. if anything in the gulf countries and those people who'd been part of the struggle the fight to get the jihad against the soviets he was known in that circle of people definitely because of his personal sacrifice and his integrity and all of the things that he'd done which you would not expect a very a billionaire to do but after that i think is influence as being. if it's been seen for. something greater than it really is people were going to it wasn't the united states didn't just attack with some bin laden that into school after they went after nations and they killed tens of thousands of people in the process so bin laden may have come and gone it's irrelevant because those symptoms that bin laden was addressing are still there. would you primarily describe yourselves on.

liberation of those people who work. for processes intellectuals. all of the above. you know i think some of the those things don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive to one another you know being muslim means standing up for justice means being a little bit radical ilsa means being a little bit conservative means all of those things the same time you know you know god says in the koran that be just even if it goes against yourself that's a very very important part of who we are what our character is that even if it meant. effectively having give to give evidence against ourselves in some way that we would always do what was most unjust in any circumstance and that's that's how we formulate our courage is justice is in many ways more important than in many

other things in ins struggling for individuals liberation from the present and being in prison is yourself. in the struggle for people's liberation a group of people ration. do you think this is incompatible with. submission to god. you are in britain and thus you have to deal with other wills of other people other governments to submit to a story i find it extremely disconcerting noir. but don't you find it annoying to submit to the will of god well let's we we all have one human being to have to submit to something we all have to submit to some kind of law all the time and and i think when we my point is about the muslim world in particular and not about the west has nothing to worry about in terms of of of us communities living here we

understand the rules and regulations and we submit to them even if we don't like it in some cases. but we're talking about in the muslim world i think that's really important to recognize and right across from the moderate all the way to indonesia that is a massive population so one fifth of the world's population want this and that's just from within the muslim community let alone what sort of they want what they want they want but i'm saying that they want islam or the religion to be a part of their life in terms of governance and in terms of their daily living routine and i think that's a choice that we should respect the problem is we have not respected that for the past hundred or so years so what do you think about the desire to unite muslim peoples into one islamic caliphate. and one central point i suppose of all the floor and law being sure due to see that as

a possibility. i mean. i think right now the way that we're seeing how the muslim communities around the world are developing i mean especially i think the arab spring has given muslims a lot to think about you have different phenomena emotionally emerging in each country and it's very very different from place to place so what's happening in tunis and possible new she is very very different to what's happening in egypt and . now the muslim brotherhood the nor party so i think what we're seeing is that the kind of. statements that were made previously you know a lot of muslims will agree generally speaking with the concept of the muslims uniting together that you know the reestablishment of a higher faith in these are very kind of you know all the docs positions that you

know people have always held but what is the substance of those positions how does that formulate in terms of the modern world and we're going to be watching muslims all over the world what's happening today is what's happening in egypt what's going to happen in in libya as they try and organize themselves but with a lot of interest because these guys are going to actually for the first time really have the authority to try and in a normative way. up. you know what the problem shelia requires of us as muslims along side living in a western in a modern world what does your ideal system is it common law sharia law. between the two is a big questions and you know we mostly deal with the issue of people detained without charge a little and stick to it we can't we don't really that's not part of our remit is not solving the world's problems but you know speaking on

a personal level i think this is the great fear the great when they talk about the system of the caliphate if nobody gets terrified but in essence what would it be it would be a union of countries where they all speak arabic for goodness sake if in europe we've got fifty different languages and people are trying to come together and have no states and one monetary union so although it was wrong to do introduce the european union has caused me a bit of grief of course because of course it has yes an extradition warrant which allowed people to to be moved in freely yes. big super states are actually the way to go right it's not to be is to hear the difference i mean what i'm talking about is that what what what links moral code. to iraq what are the links cultural and most important language most everybody you know i can go to more can speak arabic and speak arabic or and every country right in between there is something and that's a unique fabric of our society if and what separates us in europe is the language

it's primarily language of and so you've got that because it historically it used to be there before and if you look at the countries for it i mean they already speak arabic what would be the new thing what would be new it is the is the unity would not be based upon their own personal nationalism this would be the difference because that's what we used to be like before the nationalism the only thing installed after somebody came along and on the map of africa drew a line and said your libyan your algerian your so and so they if they are able to return to in the modern context of course to something that allows that sort of unity it would give them a great deal of strength and i think that's where the worry is in terms of the west is that we will have another powerhouse he established and a sudden doorstep but we don't want to know what it is all about what type of. usage someone are not talking about that is actually practical to implement now you know if you if you were going to last for a day. for we don't really use those terms of reference for. islam is

a normative legal system just like any other that we have effectively statute and case law like any other normative legal system anywhere in the world and so for us there is a rule of law that we have to follow you know and in many ways some of the complaints they often hammer about the way that islam is is implemented the is implemented is the fact that it it totally goes against. what the rule of law requires is from the from the sharia from the from the normative legal system itself so for example you know when you consider the. stoning for adultery. the requirement the evidentiary standard is for live witnesses to the act of sexual relations at the time that it's taking place from a deadly day for perspective it's almost impossible to establish that and this is some kind of party that's going to look at where it is you know it's very very

difficult to establish that criteria so the fact that you have in this book the punishment that punishment turning to death yet the punishment even taking place means that effectively the rule of law is being abused at some point because it's impossible to establish that if you don't treat the standard but i'm going to do this stoning to death i mean the whole point is that that was never in busy really are you would you agree i know you lie i agree with the islamic concepts of of how we can practice our punishments generally speaking without whether or not they even did i mean we're going to reimport imploded although i was just i was reporting. carried well not even prepared to present your personal piece and these are exactly that actually only my own. personal opinion is the death penalty is ok but from an islamic perspective yes as long as all the true persons and women saw meant then it can be depending on if all the elements are there i think you know what happens

when that when people discuss sharia it's. everybody discusses chris cuomo and punishment all the punishment the hoot so what we're talking about here is the hood or the punishment aspect that's not sheria the show is the law. you know the whole the right right right is the whole purpose is what i want to get here and none of us none of us really sort of qualified to talk about it in the way that it should be discussed in terms of a of a country establishing itself and formulating these rules and primarily because no country has applied them since the fall of the you know the caliphate of the ottomans so it's in essence a theoretical discussion that's something you do you think develop this the go back to the origins of the old and co of it. the absence of. an islamic state. that most people would want to leave it seems. would you

agree to talk to me maybe. look let me tell you a very interesting point when there was a when the caliphate was abolished one of the few wasn't kind of the as we call it was a polished when the first people to advocate for it was one hundred k. gandhi and the reason why is because he understood that was this was something that was central to the fabric of islamic history. and so i think the call for the establishment of a caliphate or perhaps not even using that word but a united muslim bloc is something that most people would want and i think to museums would go. we're muslims we're in the news you speak we speak a bit of french. and we want so determination self-determination. is best met by not showing up too much with egypt it was not made in egypt i think of course that you know and the arabs have attempted it they've tried to do the different organizations of of of just

arab unity but this goes beyond arab unity and this is i'm talking about islamic unity which includes turks it includes iranians it includes pakistanis in indonesia it's huge it's massive but why have unity well why would europe want to do the whole point of unity there as i think there will be and i think the reason your wanted you to actually was set up by the states to make the united states of europe that would be economically perhaps on the right in order to combat the soviet union that's why i think and i think i think that the reason and now now it's it's a trade block right the reason for unity would probably be. economics of course defense of course. and you know this is a harking back to history where you could travel from one point to the other unhindered because you were a citizens of even a citizen of this land and that this land isn't divided based upon colonial principles so you are a muslim passport well i don't i don't know you know that i don't know about that

but i mean it's just the same ways as you have in europe you have the ability to travel within europe and very very freely part of your own they don't generate to work in my country right or. possibly. in the sea so no it's come back to cage for them there's all sorts of things to do in life why are you doing it. i simply. was first because. i find myself changing quite radically but i mean seeing one ton and seeing in different since without charge in the u.k. the extradition act you know all of these things common in telling you well actually the north is being abused here and for a very specific purpose and all of that kind of convinced me that i used to be involved something that was working against these these policies and cage prisons and is this an important voice for muslims empowering boys is one that we hope tells muslims that you can actually stand up for yourself become stand up for for the right thing without feeling as if you're doing something criminal i think for

me it's obvious that it's part of something that i've been affected by something that i am constantly even if i didn't want to do it i'd be affected by it to this day so it's something that i think people would say that it's something called survivor's guilt that you all survived a particular trauma but other people left in that situation are not surviving so you have an obligation upon yourself to fight for them i hope i feel i have a lot just a moral and religious but also an ex duty based upon the experience and ability. if i know i can do it but i have to do it and i think i'm.

just interested if you like what he. thought the plan is if you you know god protect you but if you're sent over there to to the u.s. . and the. culture is that so much could be you're going to make a lot of people here you look at long. distance what is it mean for american nations you american jews may indeed be more liberal.