hillard executive director of the partnership for civil justice fund and that does it for now for more on the stories we covered go to you tube dot com slash our to america check out our website our two dot com slash usa you don't follow me on twitter at abby martin. sure is that so much could be you going to make a lot of the play area look at. is this what is happening to american jews in the nations you american jews may indeed be more liberal. limitations free could you take should free in-store charges free. arrangement the free. free. to type free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects a free media oh don carty dot com you.

can start. following welcome to cross dot com peter lavelle falling out of love is this what is happening to american jews in the relationship with israel american jews may indeed be more liberal than the politics of their peers in israel but does it really matter and what is the relationship connecting american jews and the israeli lobby. to cross-talk relations between american jews in israel i'm joined by norman finkelstein in new york he is a political analyst and author of the new book knowing too much why the american jewish love affair with israel is coming to an end in washington we have daniel pollack he is the co-director of government relations for design this organization

of america and in amman we have rabbani he is a an independent writer an analyst specializing in policy in affairs and the arab israeli conflict all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want norman finkelstein you have a new book knowing too much why are american jews. falling out of love with the state of israel as you claim in your book. i think there are basically two reasons the long term factor is that american jews are basically liberal since nine hundred since the 1930's for example american jews have consistently voted democratic in the us presidential elections and for example in the last presidential election about them about eighty percent of american jews voted for barack obama which is the highest percentage among and the ethnic group except for african americans american jews are overwhelmingly liberal liberal me basically

means believing in the rule of law equality under the law belief in the diplomatic resolution of of crises belief in international institutions and for the longest time american jews were able to reconcile their support for liberalism with their support for israel because israel for all appearances seemed to be a liberal state but in the last you could say last twenty years much more is now known about the actually the realities of the israel palestine conflict and american jews are finding it more and more difficult to reconcile their liberal tenets their liberal creed with the way israel carries on ok daniel how do you feel about that american jews are predominantly liberal but the state of israel is liberal i think it is one way you could say what norman is saying but he's right about the first part and wrong about the second he's right that the american jewish community is quite liberal and

a very high percentage voted for president obama. israel is liberal too that's where we disagree about the basic facts with dr finkelstein israel is a country where the rule of law is present where respect for international norms is present far more so than any of its neighbors and it's just really wrong for dr finkelstein to really his entire thesis is wrong the premise in fact the support amongst american jews for israel is quite high i strongly respect any kind of scholarship and i'm sure the dr finkelstein is aware of the polls which show that something like ninety percent of american jews agree that israel's the spiritual center of the jewish people they're far more sympathetic to israel than to the palestinians there's really no evidence at all from any of the current political science we'll going to look at any evidence in

a second here mind if i go to you on the rule of law internet and respecting law as a palestinian do you think israel does not. well not just as a palestinian but i think as a human being is overwhelming. you know certainly one it comes to international law israel has become world renowned for its systematic violation of international law and the law of occupation just yesterday we had the conclusion of an unprecedentedly long hunger strike by palestinian prisoners one of the key demands of which was and detention without charge or trial for six months period six month periods in the finitely renewable without providing any evidence in a court of law or you know any of the normal rights associated with due process so israel has certainly been more observant of the law when dealing with its

own citizens or at least most of its own jewish citizens and with its minorities and those that it illegally occupies but the idea that israel is somehow a paragon of observing the rule of law strikes me as simply absurd ok i guess the real point here would be had any american jews actually think about it what american jews think is that a vast majority of american jews have a great deal of sympathy for israel they know that it's a country at war that there are people around it possibly including guests on this program who wish to destroy it or to see it no longer exist and well that's what i think you're wrong i mean. i think american jews. as norman finkelstein indicated used to see israel as as a nation at war rather as a nation that was consistently being attacked by its neighbors but i think

increasingly they're coming to a realization that israel is in fact a state that makes war on its neighbors that occupies its neighbors and is therefore incompatible with their old liberal values ok norman jump in here. fair time here daniel said that there is no evidence what's the evidence. oh you know it's very difficult in the short time to summarize a huge amount of poll data israeli jews as well as american jews are very very heavily polled pullets take the most recent poll about two months ago a quite exhaustive poll was taken of american jews and one of the questions that was put to those who are sampled they were asked what is how do you see your jewish identity how do you identify your jewish identity about half of those surveyed said they see their jewish identity being bound up with what they called social equality

basic struggles for equality under the law quite surprisingly even to myself only twenty percent of those hold one the percent said israel was a key feature or a critical feature or for that matter any feature in their jewish identity and that's a significant drop if you take the age cohort under forty there you see even a more precipitous drop so polls have shown that forty percent of jews under the age of forty or under thirty five depending on the poll under for the are under thirty five forty percent of the age cohort said that if israel were to disappear it would not be for them a personal tragedy i would say the irony there is actually for me it would be a personal tragedy of israel or for that matter any other state were to be destroyed but for about half of american jews under the age of forty they seem

different to the fact if you move from the hole in the lower my ass normie anecdotal data you can. i know there are a lot of unknowns and i want to want to be kind of well they want to let you know this is relation norman and daniel. gentlemen please look i knew this was going to happen everybody has their own poll evidence here ok and this is a problem here daniel you say you have polls that say that's correct just the opposite in norm and you say polling data says another thing i mean what's going on here daniel first go ahead what what if what happens is just as well in front of you that saying i want an answer to the exact same question ninety four percent feel that if there were no israel it would be a tragedy so we have different polling data on that i have in front of me another poll taken of college students only that said that eighty three percent said that caring about israel is an important part of being jewish i have to tell you that i think that if you spend your time at college campuses you end up with. the loudest

voices on college campuses being heard i have a son in college who frankly is concentrating on getting his graduation next month and although i'm sure that he's been raised correctly. israel is not first on his to do list it's getting a job which is appropriate at the age of twenty two but the point is that one can't go around college campus i've heard other interviews with dr finkelstein in which he gives as evidence that it is really day parades the crowds are less enthusiastic that's not the kind of science you've been trained to do doctor you're a political scientist you know that many times the polls say different things and you should be trained to look at all these polls and come away with the trend line and the trend line is that i'm not sure how that there's still tremendous support girls will go ahead norman. right let's look at the trend line probably i'm sure mr pollack will agree that the most authoritative poster of the

jewish community is stephen cohn and stephen cohen has put forth his thesis about were jewish opinion is going regarding israel and he said there can't be any question the jewish support for israel is on a steep decline and some point in the fairly near future the only real storage defenders of the jewish of israel are going to be the orthodox jews in american society which comes to about ten percent of the american jewish community currently if you move from where i don't mind owning i knew. that result but it's not correct . that's not i don't agree that stephen cohen is the most we are and why as i said there are. you don't have to agree with anything i'm saying that's your prerogative i'm simply putting forth what's the widespread opinion that steve cohn is the most authoritative poster of the american jewish community now he moved to the anecdotal

evidence in recent years you see some fairly spectacular defections say for example david remnick the editor in chief of the new yorker in recent years and especially in the past year he's come out very critically on israel and critical very critical of israeli policy or you take the former senior editor of the new republic namely peter beinart who along with remnick has also been highly critical of israeli policy now these people are not what you would so call average joes on the street they're obviously feeling well the wind's blowing in a different direction and there's a certain element of career is someone opportunism but the fact that there is career ism and opportunism is even more indicative of the fact that the american jewish opinion is shifting ok daniel you know peter peter beinart also. wrote a book with much the same thesis that israel must change or lose it's you all right

gentlemen on the right note here when i was short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion about american jews stay with our team. and.

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for charges free arrangements free risk free studio time free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects a free media dog our teeth on tom. bodett a sister. the in the future if you want the be. so much a problem of i'm curious about your mind you were talking about the connection between the israeli lobby and american jews. the and a suitably. ok morning i'd like to go back to you in amman let's say norman's right ok. just for argument's sake here what difference does it make ok american jews vote for democrats but republicans have been in the white

house democrats been in the white house and i would say the causes of peace in the middle east when we look at the conflict between the palestinian israelis the palestinians have lost consistently again for decades there is no peace process it doesn't matter if there's a republican or a democrat in the white house. well i don't think the issue here is whether a republican or or a democrat in the white house is prefer a bill i think i think the real issue is whether or not palestinians and their supporters should actively campaign to seek to mobilize american public opinion to influence u.s. government policy and there has been this view of kind of all powerful pro israel lobby that has a stranglehold on american policy and i think not only not only is is is that view false but i think what norman has demonstrated is also that the view of

a monolithic and powerful american jewish community working day and night to prevent any change in america's uncritically pro israel policy is also mistaken and i think it's also fair to say that mobilizing significant elements of the american jewish community to try to produce change in american policy is a very effective strategy i mean i haven't studied any of these polls i'll gladly refer defer to the throw scholarship of norman finkelstein but just speaking anecdotally from my own experience i mean i you know when i was in the u.s. in the early one nine hundred eighty s. more or less in the aftermath of israel's invasion of lebanon i think it's fair to say that at that time palestine was a dirty word and american jewish university students were quite

overwhelmingly and quite uncritically pro israel from my experiences more recently what i've noticed is that if anything it is israel that is now with dirty word on college campuses and. american jews tend to be the. proportionately represented in pro palestinian solidarity activities that may be more a reflection of the college campuses than it is of the american jewish community at large i would agree that the so-called pro israel lobby is. quite a bit. less the decisive reason for american support for israel than is commonly understood i work with congress all the time and i'll tell you that the biggest reason that congress is so pro israel is not because because of the american israel. lobby but because american congressmen feel that american israel

have common enemies that's the biggest single reason and because they think they have common interests and values so that hasn't changed and in fact i just dispute the perception that again you can tell always tell a story about a couple of people who are high profile leftwing careerists there's an interesting contrast actually with the so-called bravery of someone like peter beinart who's going against the jewish establishment in fact he's been lionized and so has dr finkelstein very often for his so-called decisive and courageous stand against the american jewish community in fact on the upper west side of new york such people are lionized that's true it's been true a long time when my grandparents lived in new york. there were also people who were very sympathetic in the jewish community to stalin's russia in the early years didn't really mean it as being equated to stalin no norman everyone saw and i

actually i'm going to go ahead i didn't call i didn't call him a stalinist but i didn't say you did doesn't mean exactly. i. i'm good i'm glad to hear from my good friend and my stock is rising in the jewish community. in the very same and not past the point of being a lionized by that you are community i hope that will help my books but now turning to the real world if you take for example in september of this year there were quite a number of polls done among the american people two in particular one by the b.b.c. and one by pew charitable trusts they asked a very simple question do you support palestinian statehood the palestinian bid for statehood at the u.n. and quite surprisingly even for myself about thirty. for the fore. the five percent of americans in general americans in general support of the palestinian bid

for statehood about thirty percent opposed it so it was a large plurality in support of the palestinian bid for statehood and yet you found no resonance whatsoever of that fact from the president of the united states who opposed the palestinian bid for statehood both houses of congress opposed did both major political parties opposed it and all the major news media oppose the palestinian bid for statehood so how do you account for this huge discrepancy between the plurality of americans saying they support it and their entire political establishment and the official elites the political intellectual elites opposing it and i think the only reason she is our interest is to launch the this uterus and sing. israel israel lobby ok daniel jumping out reply go ahead the the answer is first of all it's all about how these questions are asked in the

same way the vast majority of americans and souls who are still show that they are highly opposed to u.s. aid to the palestinian authority so how would i ask you how do you account for the continued support by the american president and by congress for aid to the palestinian authority even though i'm talking about in excess of ninety percent of americans think that that's a bad idea to give them money so there's all kinds of ways to ask and answer these questions the well going back itself is not a very of a constant state you will see is really impassioned or will give a speech in which i'll talk about two states for two peoples so it's understandable that people who don't follow this issue every day understand don't understand the subtleties of what the palestinian authority was attempting to do you know why do you think that is the case because american media western media in general are very very. simplistic and i would you agree with you don't you it's extremely

complicated but when it gets down to the average person it's just black and white and you know there's a human rights groups all around the world condemn a lot of behavior of what israel does from lebanon to gaza ok but that doesn't seem to filter down into grassroots politics is real good palestinians lad and that's how does it why isn't the case like dr finkelstein have have been accused of demonizing the israelis for so long that they have lost a lot of credibility. and even though you believe that norm you want to reply to that it seems to me it's a lack of knowledge you know people know too much i guess let me just. tell you know. there are. there seems to be a huge discrepancy between what mr pollack has to say and the real world in the real world it's true to say is moving pointed out that the point of view i had in the nineteen eighties was pretty marginal and it was certainly well out of the

mainstream but if you look today and as i go through the book i just wrote i go through the human rights reports of completely mainstream respectable authoritative organizations like amnesty international human rights watch the israeli human rights organization or you look at the judgment of the international court of justice in two thousand and four if you look at all of the human rights community there is nothing at all marginal about my opinions rather the contrary all i do is . document based on what the human rights community is saying so to claim that my point so if you don't have generational and i think it and you can certainly it's completely in the terminology that is really no no that's not true at all no no no it's in our general honore and he. has been unfair only on the international phenomenon. i don't think i don't think. with all due respect to your

expertise i wonder if peter can put the question to move ween who had the power in the in human rights organization in the occupied territories in the one nine hundred eighty s. and he'll give you a sense of how much human rights organizations have changed between go ahead jump in. well i worked at one i didn't. but certainly i think. norman has has more or less hit the nail on the head i mean it's interesting that people like him or someone like noam chomsky were twenty years ago pariahs. for advocating palestinian self-determination and if you if you look at them today they're if anything being primarily criticized . for proposing a two state settlement to the israel palestine conflict rather than. thirty children since i think they're still prize i think they really are you sure now if

you and your club you know my club if you go if you go to mainstream jewish congregation you'll find a lot of hostility to i mean he's called israel as a country this is not a mainstream view within the jewish community. and i don't generally you know really going into lunatics look if you want if you want to use that standard i remember your organization was very mainstream in the early in the early one nine hundred eighty s. but i think i suspect you're now seeing or your organization is now seen as very much on the right wing fringes of the. normal jump in your last forty seconds go ahead. well it's very dismaying that i went from being lionized by the jewish community to being a pariah in the jewish community and about thirty or about one minute thirty

seconds long. it doesn't seem to me any longer if you look at public opinion in general international opinion public opinion in the united states jewish opinion in particular. has seriously declined and that there are now real possibilities for achieving a just and lasting settlement based on basic operational remain on the not positive note thank you very much gentlemen for an interesting discussion many thanks to my guest today in new york washington and you know and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time remember across town halls. and if you still. want to.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. download the official antti application to your i phone or i pod touch from the i choose our store. which i'll teach life on the go. video on demand ati's live broadcasts and r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. questions on the dot com wealthy british science. sometimes.

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