if you just joined us a very warm welcome aarti live here in moscow top stories now that russia warns against placing the blame for a massacre in the syrian city of houla soley on the assad government saying opposition government may also be involved at a meeting with his british counterpart the russian foreign minister called for a thorough investigation into the tragedy. as the syrian conflict drags on is being fueled by weapons flowing from neighboring lebanon and economic leaders are mostly driven by soaring profits but others of themselves are joining the fight against assad for purely religious reasons. and after weeks of violent student protests in

calendar and hundreds of arrests talks over tuition fee hikes are set to resume but many are skeptical over the prospects as a new emergency law introduced to curb street rallies is causing even more anger. that's the way it is at the moment here on our team that's it for me in the news team for the moment crosstalk is up next and this time people of our losses part of that guess whether the welfare state should be rethought on both sides of the atlantic so the middle class and the corporate elite carry an equal burden that's it in half an hour the news continues. well see british science. is no time to. go. to the. markets finance scandal. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the car is

a report on r.g.p. . and you can. start. blowing the welcome to cross talk i'm neutral about rethinking the welfare state while attempting to save the struggling middle class as the eurozone grapples with its debt crisis and the u.s. faces the specter of long term sluggish growth is it finally time to reconsider an economic regime but any socialism for the rich and only capitalism for everyone else. can. start. to cross out the gloomy prospects of the middle class i'm joined by jason vieaux in philadelphia he's an assistant professor of rhetoric and public advocacy at temple university and author of rhetoric for radicals a handbook for twenty first century activists and in paris we have rachel mars and

she is a political communications strategist and syndicated columnist all right folks cross talk rule in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want on rachel fine go to you first you know and looking at the broad picture of austerity in europe and what's happening in the u.s. isn't it really time to rethink the welfare state because the welfare state where it's there it's very expensive and now because of the economic crisis on both side of the atlantic they're trying to fit this austerity with a smaller middle class and struggling middle class isn't it time to rethink the whole process. well as we've seen in greece already and and in some other instances once you give people things it's very very hard to take them away so either we have to wait for a complete collapse i think or people are slowly going to come to the realisation that things are going to be taken away anyway so they have to be restructured but i don't think it's something that people are going to let go of very easily and as i said we've already seen that in greece ok if i can say with you i mean there's

a lot of banks that like things also from the stage where they're going to have to give up things what i'm saying is can we have a democratic process of austerity or is it just going to be the political elites to get what they want and the crumbs go to everybody else whereas we see in greece. well the problem with banks and finance right now is that the debt is being socialized and that at the top and at the other end of that we're ending up with basically what turns out to be you know state sponsored socialism as they you know the government bails out banks they bail out businesses and and whenever there's a debt that accrues it gets distributed among the customers among people and and just the average the average person so i mean. and yet the average person as you say i mean the average person isn't being bailed out and to say that we can't have what welfare for people but we were going to continue to have corporate welfare which is exactly what wall street is is unacceptable and wall street i mean i think

you make something really clear meet a lot of people say that wall street is and what we're seeing right now with wall street is a failure of capitalism but there's really no pure form of capitalism that exists right now in america if you think about it that's just it's corporate it's corporate welfare and it's state sponsored corporate socialism is what it is basically the only kind of capitalism that exists in america right now is among small businesses who are being squeezed by over the obama's tax policies and he's looking at taxing people who who basically make it be considered a lot of money for an individual person but not that much for somebody who runs a business or has to pay employees or is just trying to get to the point where they want to grow their business and be able to employ more people organically so i think the wrong people are being squeezed in this and i guess there's pure capitalism when the little kid sets up a lemonade stand at the side of the street it's kind of where it ends right now and you know i go on because they don't make a lot of money even when i don't make a lot of money that way jason if i go to you i mean is it all of

a slow steady in the economic thinking in the u.s. and looking at the the presidential election is it just to maintain the status quo or is there enough discussion to try to fix the system because or fix the system that is to the. advantage of a small group of people at the top i'm thinking of the one percent at the expense of the ninety nine percent well i want to touch upon a word that rachel mention which is corporate welfare i don't think that social welfare or the welfare state is really the problem instead with the problem is is corporate welfare now what i mean by that in other words if you look the last thirty to forty years there is an upward distribution of wealth so we get an upward distribution of wealth from the ninety nine percent to the one percent's now what i mean by that was obviously the most the easiest example in are the bank bailouts so seven hundred billion dollars for the richest institutions on the face of the planet and then on an annual basis the us government loses approx one hundred billion dollars in tax revenue because of offshore tax havens where corporations use and then you have approximately one percent of the us population owning thirty

five percent of the wealth then you have ten percent of the us population only and possibly seventy one percent of the wealth so you have all this lost tax revenue you do corporate breaks corporate welfare etc and the being of all the money is being funneled up to the top of the of the people and away from the bottom of the people then you have certain politicians that want to eliminate social welfare programs so if you have people with no money and then take away social welfare programs what are people supposed to do and this is this exact dilemma that the occupy movement has been trying to respond to over the last six seven eight months something like that right i mean i just don't you think what you have read about it i know there's a racial desa degree did it isn't agree but jason if i can state where does the middle class fit into all of this and i want to talk about how democratic it is i mean if i'm not mistaken i mean these are the people that vote for things ok i mean you may have the one percent but they don't have the numbers when it comes to voting so where does the middle class fall here because i'm from the middle class

and i've just seen it to mr rated for thirty years. sure well the middle class is that without a doubt being squeezed i mean you have real issues that people struggle with every day so for instance the issue of contingent labor at one point in the united states history you get a job and have that job the rest of your life now though you i mean i know so many folks that are worried about losing their jobs so my best friends are being laid off from jobs they have for five six seven years so people being laid off and those jobs don't talk about our middle class jobs jobs are supposed to sustain you and your family for decades upon decades but instead the what what's happening is we have a society that only caters to the one percent and literally forgets about the middle class forgets about the poor forgets about working class citizens on a daily basis ok rachel you were disagreeing there i mean a lot spend said already in this program go ahead rachel on a lot of points actually go ahead yeah first of all you can't really legitimately complain about layoffs and at the same time say that there aren't enough.

businesses there are getting too many tax breaks because it's an open world business is that they're taxed too much in one place can move to another country and take the jobs with them so i think you know you can't say we should be there's too much money funneling up there's too many corporate tax breaks and at the same time say that there are too many layoffs i mean you can't it doesn't make sense secondly i think there's a cultural issue here i think. well first of all you can't really complain that there are too many layoffs and at the same time say you want to tax the top one percent because it's an open world people can go where they want businesses can leave and they can take jobs with them and at the same time i think we have a conditioning problem i think people are too conditioned to to the welfare state and to getting things. easily and i think part of the problem with the bank bailout and the reason why we have it in the first place is because people are lending or sorry they're borrowing lent money beyond their means they're taking out mortgages for homes they can't afford their they're living well beyond their means and and

it's just it's not something that it's not a system that can hold up so i think the the pressure is coming from the people to you know to for example i was talking to somebody this week who said i want to start a small business and i said well good for you and his next the next line out of his mouth was but i need money and the bank will give me a loan well what ever happened to building a business organically starting small seeing if you're good at it and if you are good at it then proving that yes i can build well i mean to do so we're going over my head like i like your cultural attitude but the cost of entry can be very very high sometimes even for a small business and that's why maybe i'm kind of in the middle of both of you a banking system should be kind and gentle and helpful to a small small people that want to get into the business world because so many jobs can be created you can be very innovative but no banks aren't in the business of creating or developing the economy the banks are interested in making money that's the dutch the disconnect we have today something that you agree would you agree no

no you do you know it's a riff you think they should be able to i don't know ok jason if i go to you i mean i think this is the disconnect is that you know the banking system it's called the financial ization of the economy just to make money not to grow the economy and that's where we're in trouble. well i think there are a few different issues and i want to go back to one thing that rachel said about the welfare state or that people think it is they shouldn't think it's so easy to get things and i don't think that's really the what's going on so for instance you know the the traditional conservative motto is well pull yourself up by your bootstraps we can't pull yourself up you have no boots i mean we are limited eating programs and conditions that allow people to grow as human beings as individuals to grow businesses etc the purpose is not to create a perpetual welfare state but instead the purpose to create a system my social system that allows people to flourish as individuals that eliminates the very necessity of a welfare state now you can do that though given what the president made an issue

of corporate america rachel jump in go ahead oh well i'm all for him and he's somebody well i don't think somebody. preventing somebody from growing on their own why do you need the government to hold your hand while you're growing that's what i understand i mean why do we need why do i as a human being need to say oh you know what i'd really like to do something like to develop myself i think i need the government to help me what prevents me from doing that on my own jason go ahead reply. well first of all first of all i disagree with the knowledge of the metaphor of the governor holding my hand i've never had a government official hold my hand whatsoever instead it's creating the conditions that allow individuals to act individually as well as collectively to prosper if you look at it not to go so philosophically here but if you look at the nature of what he and i create we're hearing creating the conditions where i mean why don't you let me let me finish let me finish let me finish. up everything that i know everything that i know i've learned from other human beings and converse lee i

teach other human beings which is say that we as human beings are inherently reflexive creatures now to try to implement a system of economics or a system of politics that dismisses that reflexivity just doesn't make any sense right what kind of ethic do we want to live by and that's when the going out of the of this or an ethic of care ok rachel go ahead jump in so not because it's you know it's you know being as caring one another that's the way i suppose you know the public their friends. i really i care for no i think that's a no i just don't need the government to put money in my pocket. i don't and it's not what i say and i you know i don't know there i would and i mean it's just that i think about you as a martyr the tradeoffs are the trade off is that when i accept money from the government there's a there's an inherent trade of freedom on that i somehow there's either they're taking taxes from it or if i have along with found that i owe the money back it's nothing is really free or in the case of the welfare state in general. you know the whole thing could collapse or unemployment insurance and i pay into that there's no

guarantee that i'm going to get it back whenever any or if i really do need it there's no guarantee they'll get it back in the amount in which i need it so i'd rather the government just stay out of my business i rather the people are going to jump in here i'm going to go on your show we're going to get it was short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on the fate of the middle class stay dark. and you. still. want to.

get up sometimes to see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tarred as a big. star . welcome back across time it was about to remind you we're talking about the grim future of the middle class street. and you can. see. ok before we continue our program i'd like introduce in baltimore david z's he's

a political activist and one of the organizers of october two thousand and eleven dot org kevin you heard most of the first part of the program tell me how much is the income disparity in the u.s. and in the electorally less so in the eurozone contributed to the crisis that we're undergoing now starting in two thousand and eight to the present income disparity. well there's no question the income disparity is one of the root problems and it's now at a level that spins knots and so wide since the great depression and i think we're losing their first part of the show i think we both got to get beyond the twentieth century economic thinking and get into a twenty first century and that means getting beyond corporate capitalism and state based socialism and i think we need to move to a democratized economy where people have greater control of their own lives and great influence on the economy for example some of their corporate welfare is we totally changed into tax payer investment there's no question that economic advances of occurred throughout our history by government into investment in things

like railroads things like the highway system the internet development the internet all these were government funded and create a lot of research on pharmaceuticals a lot of and sometimes it fails government unfortunately does that failure investment because that's part of the learning that they get that the capitalist want to profit from but don't want spend money investment so we need to move toward a corporate from corporate welfare to taxpayer investment when taxpayers invest in developing the economy taxpayers should be treated like investors that means they get a piece of the profit model that the alaska a lot. of them where for since one nine hundred eighty they've had a system where profits from the oil industry on public lands go into a fund the alaska permanent trust every year a check is sent to every alaskan for their share of those profits if we do that if we had done that the last century and be amazing we'd have a a guaranteed national income but if we do that now as we go into this twenty first century green sustainable economy which is going to happen and if we invest it and

we're treated as investors we won't have a need for these social welfare programs will have a guaranteed national income because we will all be sharing in the commonwealth that we all created that's what we need to move toward on a national level on a local level you move toward workers having greater control over their own business. over the businesses becoming worker owners so wealth share at the local level as well as the national level ok rachel i know i know how you feel about these things you know but there's one thing all of all of us on this program have in common and i think we do care about the welfare of the middle class and kevin gave a really good argument of what needs to be changed because i don't all of us don't have to work for the banks you know in essentially this is an economy that has been created for all of us to make other people rich it's time for them to give us an opportunity to make our own wealth and our own future and that's where i agree with you go ahead i know you don't agree with everything kevin said. no basically i see that as democratizing poverty because on one hand he's talking about you know we

should all share and they got one hundred twelve our blood at the same time is example excuse me so yeah i mean if you're saying we shall share in the wealth and we should all be making the same money as everyone else where's the money coming from always an example of oil and natural resources. that you gave the example of oil and natural resources and then said we should do the same with a green economy there's no proof that actually makes any money i mean oil or are you saying that we should do that with oil everywhere i think it's already done was right when i was doing that with oil i don't really know i mean isn't profit on the go ahead kevin i don't know if rachel even i don't know if rachel even listen to what i said you know democratized on their hands i mean well you democratising to market to market as barbara and i didn't say equal. but i know that was what i said i was not what i said was what i said you said i know it was your that was your general taste which was a misinterpretation of what i said was of the commonwealth the taxpayers invest

let's say and let's say building mass transit let's say building public utilities but who's going to pay them a little bit let's tell us where the tax the tax payers are people work people have the right now words words we were paying our workers the corp what is the corporate welfare money out of my share since then as a man well i want that commonwealth money to go back to the commonwealth not to the one percent so i'm not you know and i don't want to recognize an individual i have to answer how many people you really think will want to do that. i mean i think everybody and i mean one hand about we should we should collectively contribute to this why do you fight what i'm going to generate a war i don't think it's right there on the beaches and i'm going to jump in right now jason you've been very really sexist i'm ok yeah can the tax system be more demonic democratic because again this is one of the things that really bothers me here is that we have you know one percent of the population that seems to do extremely well the crisis is over for them a long time ago but everybody else is stuck with different elements of the crisis here how can we democratize that process where people are part of the democratic

process and have prosperity going how do you marriage to two if i want to without going to socialism without going to while i want to you know it all ism go ahead so i have an idea i don't know if you i don't know just when i was saying earlier in the let me. please please let me talk let me talk i will go back to i was saying earlier if you look at how corporations basically they need taxes we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars every year doesn't make any sense you have corporations like general electric exxon mobil and numerous other corporations that they close nothing and federal income tax meanwhile this is a true story just two months ago i got a letter from the r.s.a. i was over there with three hundred dollars for a mistake that i made an honest mistake that i made right but meanwhile you have multibillion dollar corporations that literally hire lawyers and accountants to make sure they don't pay any taxes but yet they want to they want to be here and they want to know that i'm telling you that they don't want they don't want to contribute but they don't want to contribute to the greater collective right this

idea very well being individual and then finally i'm not how you want things exist that's. what they're employed you want to lay off people would you like in the end he was your employee and this is your my life right now i mean. let's go to i really really hope rachel rachel is not into the job creators come from the wealthy nonsense i mean come on job creation comes from job creator myself later right so i'm sol rachael i don't think you are and i create jobs. go ahead kevin keep good job good jobs and you would be all employed people to buy your product and so you need to have a middle class you can buy products knowing as well it was i'll show you instead of behind the time when i was three people should if i had a good time figuring i don't know they're going to make money fast how they're off trying to talk over me i'm not going to stop talking i'm trying to make a point the time when the wealth divide was small so this country was in one nine hundred fifty s. and sixty's when the highest income tax rates were at ninety percent we need to be debating the nixon tax or as the reagan tax that's fifty percent tops bracket

versus seventy percent bracket we shouldn't be having fifteen percent for the richest people in the country which that we do have for people in the country right now have wealth equal to half the population those poor people pay an average tax of seventeen percent why would those pays about a thirty percent tax that's unfair and sub scene and that's what it is if we do about the buffett rule we should talk about nixon tax where is the reagan tax fifty to seventy percent that's where the debate should be then we can raise enough resources and anyone who's getting wealthy is getting wealthy because they're part they're making profit from the commonwealth you know get wealthy on your own you get well because people buy your products because people use your services that's how you get wealthy and so you're part of the commonwealth is making you wealthy and that's why the people in the top income income brackets need to be required to pay a higher much more progressive tax we should be stopping the tax bracket of five hundred thousand dollars there's a million dollar two million five million ten million even the billion dollar tax level because we see hedge fund people making a billion dollars a year in income and paying fifteen percent tax that's obscene ok rachel jump in ok

what about income in iraq all right all right jay centimes i mean let me go to jason first jason has been very patient go ahead jason. first of all i want to i want to address the issue of corporations because many people say well corporations create jobs they create wealth etc it's people that create wealth and it's people that create jobs corporations are one way to organize human productivity corporation only one for the organization human beings of our very nature are productive creatures we can or organize our productivity on many different avenues many different forms of management corporations or one form when people make that argument well corporations create jobs that's a way to insulate corporations from critique and instead of trying to insulate them we should critique them their power as an institution and all institutions of power should be open to critique if we don't critique them and they will run amok as they're doing right now ok rachel i want one part of this program is about what's going on with the middle class what the status quo is that tenable for the middle

class in europe in the united states because like i've said there's been the misery of the middle class for at least three decades if not longer what needs to be changed when we keep your principles but everybody else can have a piece of the pie too ok. well i think more and more middle class people that i know are turning towards entrepreneurship and other alternatives and other words they're opting out of the system instead of complaining to realizing the middle class is being squeezed and i can't disagree with that they're realizing they hate if i start a business on the side maybe there's an opportunity for me to grow that and to slowly segue out of this system to slowly opt out of the system and perhaps that's the way to go and perhaps that's the way to stimulate the economy i also think there's there's this sense that i'm getting from this entire conversation that if we were to move more towards a socialist type of system and away from what some perceive as a corrupt form of capitalism as i've described as myself as corporate welfare that

there's this misconception i think that suddenly there would be no hierarchy but we've seen in every kind of socialist revolution cuba and others that that's simply not true there's always going to be a hierarchy and to say that there won't be a one percent in a more social it's all right but rachel in the industry is proof of it rachel in all honesty you're the only person that uses socialism on this program here kevin again how do we save democracy and have prosperity at the same time because they're divorced from each other right now. yeah and the fact that democracy is the solution we need to create a participatory democratic government where people are not just voting but also involved in making decisions for example in chicago and new york now they have experiment called something called participatory budgeting where in new york is a million dollars is given for capital expenditures for a council district in chicago is one point five million is given for a council district and the people in those districts actually get together and say

this is what our community needs more lighting. bike lanes showers in the park what do you know what a fix this road fix this sidewalk and they come up with a whole list of different issues they debate them investigate them and they come up and they vote on what they want to see funded and it's very interesting when they started do this in chicago which is the first older minister called go start this process when he started doing the pie change greatly rather than all the money going to fixing the streets it became much more slivered and people got what they wanted and people got very smart about for example one issue was crime and initially looking at adding video cameras but the people looked into the details of that and found video cameras more expensive and less effective than better lighting and remakes and i'm afraid we're running out of time for this is a very fascinating conversation and it has to be continued many thanks to my guest today in philadelphia baltimore and in paris and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time and remember crossfire.