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i am truly in a song. it is true where she reeks of expose the world secrets these documents belong the united states government been attacked by the powerful united states strongly condemn this question why people illegally should suffer five hundred days now being detained without charge but that doesn't stop the clock . today on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow. welcome to this special episode of the world from our normally i do this from my location to house arrest that today because of the number of people involved in the occupy movement we've decided to do it here in the old voice of bank of london

which is controlled by friends of the pipes we have very science in the uk if i if you york. alexa o'brien from occupy york and it was their rage. peters from occupy london by me calling from occupy london and david graber from occupied new york so i want to split this program in really sort of two parts the first part so i want to understand how occupy came to be the sort of people who are involved political background for organizing it and conducting its affairs and spreading it and then look into where it's going to go. david where where do you think this movement came to eventually cause you'll be patient zuccotti park and then spread out to the rest of united states or i think there's been sort of

a global movement that i'm in i guess it started in tunisia and sort of swept across the mediterranean greece spain was really the same movement that hit america there out of people from greece and spain who were involved in the very early days and even before the occupation of parking or putting it together so that i think there's really a global ferment alexy you are involved in this us day of rage back in late two thousand and ten but did you see that as as the time of going into sort of. the transition from cyberspace to meatspace or is there some earlier analogue i think definitely i mean i look at op art and and other smaller swarm activist activities social media and the transformation in the organization of media also has played a role in the last year. in occupy wall street it's clearly that clearly there was a feeling emerging from the arab spring. i mean this is this is very rarely alluded

to two thousand and eight egypt gets the world bank's number one hundred reform and country in the middle and world. and in terms of deliberate forms egypt was unbeatable in north africa the middle east from the world bank now a mass point of view the bigger the bigger kind of on the going on here is that off the second more war the nation state is truly seen as kind of propose a trip democratic accountability since the lead on something that's been going away in some places never existed. but that's now a global phenomenon we now recognize that public policy outcomes on happening at the national level and the policy makers are actually the ones who are national parliaments they're elsewhere and the ones who are dictating policy on any way accounts or you know they're not them representatives and that's a global phenomenon that's well that's an india that's in china that's in the u.s. and u.k. we don't even should we have just had a global financial crisis we have a global political crisis because our institutions no longer function exactly and

this is one of the points of the global justice movement which is there are these sort of newly created in ministry of global planetary political mechanisms that would like the w t o like the i.m.f. the people at least in places like the us weren't even supposed to know exist but were in fact governing the world remains the first really effective planetary bureaucracy which was created in the name of the sort of free market ideology which is supposed to stand against it but in fact exactly the opposite that's the result as always in the name of democracy because that's the thing which is obviously lacking the financial crisis just brought it home especially in the matter of that i think where you know it became very clear that the debts of the big players could be completely renegotiated by these sort of through these global mechanisms but yours can't because your politicians are beholden to them and not to you so when you get right down into the practical genesis so this is sort of a broad things happening in the background but if we go back to. to this

some of the key sort of ingredients in occupied new york in our research we see these like because the eight got the only nine percent but actually the phrasing was that we are the city. just quite right that was actually and then and then there was you know these little sort of groping for in presentation skills to eventually coalesced into something it's a beautiful example collaborative process i think i threw or why don't we do something with ninety nine percent in someone else i think some spaniard said we are the ninety nine percent and then i believe chris said it was tumblr page he put in the are. actually different people contributed the word but it just came together beautifully there's no i mean if you saying that sort of that is rooty of process something has erected it wasn't born to a person to be inspiration in just one person's brain it seems to have been something that actually has evolved through all these processes i think that's right i think there are identify with different streams which feed in to occupy an

occupy is almost a galvanizing moment when people are doing actually quite different things they can cooperate together and create something that's really extraordinary if you want to look at occupy london specifically the trigger is clearly the example from occupy wall street the idea that. this extolled me think think it happened in the outside atlantic in some way you would have never expected it to be possible and so philip therefore you have to do something in london. you have feeding into that what's happened elsewhere in europe i would pass to what happens in london is not possible without. the example of what happened in spain it's really mean when everything comes together how much did the indignados movement in spain practically feeding into in terms of logistical support or bodies on the ground for people in new york . well there were many members of the dollars that were actually in new york for one reason or another leading up to september seventeenth and they came to the

early general assemblies and it gave us the foundation and the context for what we're doing and so we learned a great deal from them there were even egyptians there i mean we got e-mails from egypt saying i'm going to new york specifically to be there for this particular action so i think also in terms of the learning process i can say for myself personally that watching what was going on in europe about how you scale that out that information out for occupations was definitely directly taken from that particular movement me in london to the streets or put up a tory tahrir square in front of a simple church when the most when the most photographed no idea who put it up. yeah. i would say that was clearly people identified but it didn't quite strongly with the inspiration of the arab spring in terms of practical bodies on the ground is the european movement which feeds in much more to london just because where we are i'm interested in this because i mean just in the particular branch of

philosophy about technique and the domination of technique to regard whatever we try and do politically in one direction or another we have to do it efficiently if it is to win and to do it efficiently we have to adopt efficient techniques and so everyone regardless of which direction that they're going in starts with opposition techniques and in the end it's the techniques. the techniques that we david i think part of those techniques though is not just the. social media but there has been a tradition for at least in the seventy's of creating new forms of direct democracy of facilitation of consensus decentralization of decision making that is deeply practical in a way is that there is a kind of a sentence or by the find itself against the way you act on social media the kind of synergies so on the one here is putting information of certain kinds of social media but at the same time there's a deeply personal lives new forms of democracy and that tradition was the fact we

had that to draw on those people in how to do this or tayshaun and institutions like the people's microphone which had been developed over years that are there did wrong was absolutely critical this is this myth that always cool culture that visually we're very familiar with from occupied human to human like a fern smart check sort of its a bit of a bit of street theater on the other hand seems to be practical general assembly this and waving stuff which to me when i when i first saw i thought seem terribly sort of defeat and you know ineffectual. i don't see it if you've got a whole lot of people and one job to hear someone maybe it's not a bad bet. to have you have you studied how these techniques. it came to be were that in fact any innovations in terms of technique if you going back to the notion of the me and them at six now there's an argument that's always existed and sums of how humans share identities how they create new ones aren't

analyze them but the point with these new kinds of communicating with that process is rapidly speeded up i think there's genuinely a relationship between especially among younger people on one practice in offline practice where they're not. interested in leaders they're not interested necessarily in profit models they're actually creation of value but frequently it's the creation of value beyond the profit motive and beyond being coerced to do something so it's kind of fallen for entry collective action to take makes you. wonder where they grabbed from seeing what were people were doing you know a lot for your call or is it all but i think there is an interesting tension between the way consensus works online which it does if you look at how you sort of how the hive mind situation works it's it's consensus but in a much less structured form and it is an interesting tension between that which is of mindset of people came to occupy with with the way this tradition this more tradition of i think call it consensus destructed consensus decision making works

what works on the ground and that's a tension which i think we explored occupy london without fully fully resolving it we can see why occupied it wouldn't have been ten years ago we had these protest movements were growing up in june or and so on very similar that was in that so we can see why it would have happened ten years ago but why didn't it happen five years ago i think well primarily social movements around there always borne out of grievance and a sense of being agree and i think this is simply what's happening is simply impossible without the global financial crisis. and it genuinely could have been the end of capitalism as we know it we would have had massive problems with distributing food a prom with complex societies is that when something goes wrong it goes very wrong so you think it wouldn't have happened and also for the g.s.t. that was a was such a drop because there are there are ten there tent cities in the states that on the new there are people who are simply home. so. as much as agency to

david. occupy sort of semen for a while for the first week or ten days or something until there was violence. well yes i mean one of the police violence but nonetheless follows violence is sort of what was a and effective marketing. mechanism so we would movies are full of i mean i research do you know i mean i was there and they you know living in the park for the first week. as has to the fact that we didn't summer we protested all day all week you know we occupied wall street we went and you know the opening bell in the closing bell every day we held two general assemblies the day we are you know you know it has the media report it just wasn't there and it really could you know it would follow. i mean i suppose whether it was never to you know i'm just suggesting i'm suggesting that maybe it should be based upon the experience of this

event and maybe actually provoking police violence is something that really should be done when you don't want to how you're going to do that it's going to happen in the next one to be sure that we did not provoke like this violence we took a radical you can record police we took a nonviolent direct action we went and we occupied the squares that we could have a general assembly and starts talk about the world that we wanted to live in which we saw is completely antithetical to the world we're currently living in and the structures that governed it so yeah i mean i guess by being there by exercising directly democratic process we're posing a threat and so the police had to respond i mean there's nothing that terrifies the american government so much as the threat of democracy breaking out in america going to be there for to react violently to start i was outside the main concourse cordon police around and i think accounts for twenty five. i'm not saying this

enough times now the docs coming out obscene the foreign intelligence teams that will they come in so. this is now where they beat the living daylights out of everything in this new media hay and they know that if they don't stop it today this could very quickly gain traction then i mean you were the coordinator for bradley manning campaign it was actually a rather interesting and unusual connection between the number of people who is some in some ways bound up with supporting wiki leaks or bradley manning or anonymous and the occupy that if it gets bradley manning was made an example i mean he wasn't just arrested and then everything was kept quiet and when he was made a prominent example to act as a disincentive. because of thora he needs. to give prominent examples of what happens to people who are alleged to have have dissipate authority in order to keep authority these t.v. scenes of protest is on the receiving end of violence in the weak position in

relation to par violence do you do you think that that is also over the longer term sitting an example a negative example. well there's a there's a couple of things in i think the. what was happening to bradley. has been very badly treated over you know the un special rapporteur has come out finally said in terms of media representation of conflict i think it's you know without doubt the. coverage of you know what happened in the early days of new york those those with those with the pictures that went around the globe they won it was the mainstream media they came from it was citizen major it was live stream so and i think there is a certain degree to presence of media in the fact that something is happening in full view of the world which is a really important thing that's happened with with occupy being you know documenting itself all the time is kind of an important if it's in force i mean if it wasn't for live stream it wasn't for on social media teams then we wouldn't have

gotten into the mainstream press reproached the dialogue in a really important way alexa talked to me about the rules of war and the book it was one of the the viewers. seems to be. absolutely i mean i think that you know at the base of any kind of the case the united states is a democratic republic or at least it's said to be a democratic republic there are several institutions there's the civic square there's the press and there's elections and when those things are in the hands of people the institutions sort of find their health you know because they check each other i think in terms of the rule of law i mean my own experience just if if one citizen one dollar one vote is so radical that it's got me written up in australian security mag you know tied to al qaeda and i'm getting private messages from other security contractors that have relationships with the f.b.i. telling me that you know be careful you're somehow connected to al qaeda that tells

me immediately. it's an intimidation tactic you know essentially. david octopi. it came to world prominence as a result of book by new york but it is spread over the united states as well can you describe a bit of this thread of occupy over the continental united states it was remarkably clear. i was full of upper gas that i was astounded is you know you dream of these things happening but you never really think you're actually going to help them. i would say in three weeks we had something like eight hundred occupations and then granted some of those occupations was like one saw him but a lot of the more and a lot of them were large camps of people in places like you know new occupied scattered form in canada mill is remarkable out whoring and it happened very very quickly i want to get on to to space so why is it important to

occupy space at all. so i don't want to just stay at home you've got your rolodex you've got your friends you've got your social networking why not just coordinate from behind the scenes isn't a bit of a waste of time to jump to and do things efficiently. but it is it goes back to the question about why online movements may move offline until i think there is a natural human need to communicate face to face and actually it is much more profound i think working online your sort of is about coordinating autonomous individuals to do things and you have some feeling that you're part of a community of people that feels the same thing or is concerned about the same thing but it's nothing like. you know being in a space and say to stop you know what everyone is there and willing to you know wanting to talk to each other is actually recreating the kind of society which people exist which existed all the time i think it's also an experiment to see how

far you can push your engagement with you know in the civic space meaning you know when civic space is the curb between the chuck e. cheese and the wal-mart which which it is in the united states in a lot of cases in a lot of even small towns there is a need to create a public ness that is not private that is not related to one's job even that is is is the we the we that comes together that deals with carlyle buying our water or whatever it might be david does the space have to be contested i mean everyone could go out into the into the redwoods of california. and. in fact the g eight is being moved off to camp david it seems in dubai you know in order to achieve just sort of fit. well i think yes i mean i think there's been for the last thirty years there's been the systematic assault on on the notion of

community and the idea of the imagination or political imagination and this is a way of reclaiming both at the same time so i think that that idea of taking something back is critically important because it is a demonstration of sovereignty in ritual to so that over an area of land we physically control through our political decision making absolutely space you do not physically control absolutely and that's what's critical about it i mean it's a power strategy i mean we are talking about force we're not talking about legalities they're not talking about legalities and neither are we either might deploy one as a weapon but what we're saying is this is our space this is our we're the public this is a public space. we're going to take it and that simple act of defiance is enormously creative i mean everything evolves from that and everything else we've done has been from the fact that we start out without accepting the terms of the existing order and with the will to imagine a new one. in the in the domination of the physical space in creating your own

little mini state at occupy which is i think the correct when you physically control an area of land when you have the monopoly on coercive force. to erect certain structures about how to how to deal with each other. oh and how to coordinate with each other on certain methodology for dealing with police food for dealing with opportunists within the occupy movement for dealing with crazy people for dealing with the garbage. those methodology that you came up with for political decision making and practically dealing with things do you see them as a blueprint for dealing with why the society or a methodology is. simply for mostly for dealing with the particular problem at hand which is how to occupy the square i think we have

a did have the monopoly of force within all people it would have been no easier had you know that you had had a gun to actually negotiating what you know what you do in a situation where. sort of you know any disruption that may happen actually you don't you don't have the power of coercion you have the power you have the power of persuasion you have the power of showing what you know what the majority of people in that in that space think but also you know you don't have question and that also is you know it is an education you've got you've got a disruptive person in the you know all their mad person is that they've got they're ruining it for everyone. what do you do with them what do you do with them in occupied how do how do you get rid of. they call the cops what do you do don't do that you know i mean we've been we've been using a combination of things deescalation mediation nonviolent communication have been the modes of dealing with conflicts within the party david if push comes to shove

at the the end i stay there you know fucking rules that are applied to me i want to drum when i want to draw my own moment i want to talk i want to be naked with or be in a. they you don't you need your big guys to turn up at some stage and go look buddy come on you are ruining it for everyone because all there are many ways to put pressure on people. website shows. with the drummers for instance i mean we we had an assembly where we talked about the drum mean situation we negotiated it within the realm of this somebody it works there certainly are conflicts and tensions that are natural to human beings in groups within occupy it's not like the space the occupy creates suddenly is like a utopia because it isn't. at the end the to make use of the process to deploy coercive force. it's practically it's a question that needs own strength of course but it's. and i thought the guys are

so uncomfortable i think not to permit guns with these and you know this is a general an existential question i might even a psycho and there are people i tell you i'm inclined i was not put in psychotherapy for ten years but in the mean time you have got someone there when you're going to band causing a problem there have been people who've been banned from meetings and things like that that's happened. i mean in a way we're we're we're trying to delicately move around some issues that. perhaps we don't want to talk about so much which is intentional subversion there were attempts to sort of dump people on. there were some point the police were taking recently released prisoners and taking them buses to the park and saying hey there's precluded here. you know these that. says the opposite they just naturally appears if you have people in the camp there was a very directed attempt to try to subvert us and give us

a choice between you know either being overwhelmed or kind of turning into a social welfare model where we take care of these people which is another thing that started happening how did occupy london prevent. the logical social group. who are very good in that in their words are good at telling one thing to one person another thing to another person's pretty room and sowing dissent from rising up to the top so has it. well. you're. right it has a top it's very easy to do but it's a horizontal movement it's really quite hard i mean there's only so much damage a sociopath can do and what i always say about america's them when people say well what about what about you know people who are just don't care about anyone else and are selfish some will say well yes but at least they won't end up in charge of armies which they do here you know. really only so much damage such

a person can do if they. i don't have a structure where they can start dominating rising to the top one thing i actually agree with william f. buckley he once said that i'd i'd rather be governed by the first three hundred names in the phone book than the people currently running. that i agree probably do a better job. for me in the in the end what however we govern ourselves we have to be able to be competitive with those who would seek to govern us another way absolutely so why international movement is so important and that's what we're seeing i mean there's a feeling out there that the enemy has become increasingly globalized and the only way it can be challenge is by a global movement so in that sense the whether states are competitive with one another is becoming increasingly irrelevant. so we've got the biggest transformation global political economy in terms of stuff going to south southeast asia with a list that i mean it's only going to end one way like clearly the west is over

it's apparent to everybody but public policy makers in the west. it's just it's abundantly evident the need for dinner they don't really know too well either way since about ninety nine miners and money are not coming out cash what's been lost you've got like. i don't know i mean it's pretty obvious that the party's over it's only make sense of the one percent is going to try to grab all the cookies if there's less cookies to grab but it seems very unlikely if you look at it historically that they're going to end up with. wealthy british style. that's right for.

markets. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with max cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report. to. me is eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat eat. eat eat meat.