technology innovation. development russia. this is just to present you to the wiki leaks founder of being. to face.

meeting with those of the. world. with some of the latest exclusive. i am truly in a song but. it is true of wiki leaks we've exposed the world secrets these documents belong the united states government being attacked by the powerful united states strongly condemn the said quote after quote he broke the law illegally should some five hundred days now i've been detained without charge but

that doesn't stop the fight. today on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow. welcome to this special episode of the world from our normally i do this from my location to house arrest but today because of the number of people involved in the occupied movement we've decided to do it here in the old bank of london which is controlled by friends of occupy we have very sometimes market by new york alexa bryant from occupy in york and us they have rage. pitas from occupied london by me calling from occupy london and david graber from occupied new york so i want to put this program in really sort of two parts the first part so i want to understand how occupy came to be. sort of people who are involved political

background for organizing it and conducting its affairs and spreading it and then look into where it's going to go or. david where where do you think this movement came to eventually cause the occupation of zuccotti park and then spread out to the rest of united states well i think there's been sort of a global movement that and i guess it started in tunisia and sort of swept across the mediterranean greece spain was really the same movement that hit america and a lot of people from greece and spain were involved in the very early days and even before the occupation of scotty parking or putting it together so that i think there's really a global ferment alexy you are involved in this us day of rage back back in may two thousand and ten but did you see that as as as the time of doping into sort of. the transition from cyberspace to meatspace or is there some earlier analogue

i think definitely i mean i look at op art and and other smaller swarm activist activities. social media and the transformation in the organization of media also has played a role in the last year. in occupy wall street it's clearly that clearly there was a feeling merging from the arab spring. i mean this is this is very rarely alluded to two thousand and eight egypt gets the world bank's number one hundred performing country in the american world and in terms of illiberal forms egypt was unbeatable in north africa the middle east from the world bank now a mass point of view the bigger the bigger kind of none of this going on here is that of the second more or the nations that is broadly seen as kind of propose a true democratic accountability since the let in on something that's been going away and in some places never existed. but that's now

a global phenomenon we now recognize that public policy outcomes are happening at the national level and the policy makers are actually the ones who are national parliaments they're elsewhere and the ones who are dictating policy on any way accounts or you know they're not them as representatives and as a global phenomenon that's where that's an india that's in china that's in the u.s. and u.k. we don't even should we'll just have a global financial crisis we have a global political crisis because our institutions no longer function exactly and this is one of the points of the global justice movement which is there are these sort of newly created in ministry of global planetary political mechanisms that i would like the w.t. the i.m.f. the people at least in places like the us weren't even supposed to know exist but were in fact governing the world them as a first really effective planetary bureaucracy which was created in the name of the sort of free market all of you were supposed to stand against. but in fact exactly the opposite that's the result as always in the name of democracy because that's the thing which is obviously lacking the financial crisis just brought it home

especially in the matter of that i think where you know it became very clear that the depths of the big players could be completely really go shielded by these sort of through these global mechanisms but you're scared because you. politicians are beholden to them and not to you so i want to get right down into the practical genesis so this is sort of a broad things happening in the background but if we go back to. to this some of the key sort of ingredients in occupied new york in our research we see these like we got the i got the ninety nine percent but actually the phrasing wasn't we are the ninety nine percent wasn't just quite right that was and then actually and then and then there was you know these little sort of groping for in presentation skills to eventually coalesced into something it's a beautiful example the collective process i think i threw out like why don't we do something with ninety nine percent and someone else i think some spaniard said we are the ninety nine percent and then i believe chris said it was tumblr page he put

in the are. actually different people contributed the word but that it just came together beautifully there's no i mean if you say that sort of that that is rooty of process something has erected it wasn't born as a burst of inspiration in just one person's brain it seems to have been something that actually has evolved through all these processes i think that's right i think now. identify with different streams which feed in to occupy an occupy is almost a galvanizing moment when people are doing actually quite different things realize they can cooperate together and create something that's really extraordinary if you want to look at occupy london specifically the trigger is clearly the example from occupy wall street the idea that. this extolled me think thing can happen in the on the other side atlantic in some way you would never expected it to be possible and so philip therefore you have to do something in london. you have feeding into that what's happened elsewhere in europe i would pass to it what happens in london is

not possible without. the example of what happened in spain it's really a man when everything comes together how much to do you need to go out as movement in spain practically feeding into in terms of logistical support or bodies on the ground for people in new york. well there were many members of the indignados that were actually in the york for one reason or another leading up to september seventeenth and they came to the early general assemblies and it gave us the foundation and the context for what we're doing and so we learned a great deal from them there were even egyptians there i mean we got e-mails from egypt saying i'm calling to new york specifically to be there for this particular action so i think also in terms of the iterative learning process i can say for myself personally that watching what was going on in europe about how you scale that out that information out for occupations was definitely directly taken from that particular movement i mean in london those are the streets put up towards

tahrir square in front of st paul's church when the most when the most photographed and so no idea who put it. yeah. i would say that was clearly people identified but it didn't quite strongly with the inspiration of the arab spring in terms of practical bodies on the ground it's the european movement which feeds in much more to london just because where we are i'm interested in this because i mean to see a particular branch of philosophy about technique and the domination of technique to regard whatever we try and do politically in one direction or another we have to do it efficiently if it is to win and to do it efficiently we have to adopt efficient techniques and so everyone regardless of which direction that they go in starts with opposition takes and in the end it's the techniques. the techniques that we david i think part of those techniques though is not just the. social media but there has been

a tradition for release in the seventy's of creating new forms of direct democracy of facilitation of consensus decentralization of decision making that is deeply practical in a way is that there is a kind of a sentence or by the find itself against the way you act on social media the kind of synergies so on the one here is putting information of certain kinds of social media but at the same time as these deeply personal lives new forms of democracy and that tradition was the fact we had that to draw on those people in how to do this or tayshaun and institutions like the people's microphone which had been developed over years that are there to draw on was absolutely critical to this this myth that always cool culture that visually we're very familiar with from occupied the human like a fern smart check sort of its a bit of a bit of street theater on the other hand seems to be practical general assembly this and waving stuff which to me when i when i first saw i thought seem terribly sort of defeat and you know ineffectual. i don't see it if you've got

a whole lot of people and you want to hear someone maybe it's not a bad bet. to have you have you studied. how these techniques. came to be work were that in fact any innovations in terms of technique if you going back to the notion of the me and the mets ics now there's an argument that's always existed and sums of how humans share identities how they create new ones are in town was the point with these new kinds of communicate same means that process is rapidly speeded up i think there's genuinely a relationship between especially among younger people online practice and offline practice where they're not. interested in leaders they're not interested necessarily in profit models they're actually creation of value but frequently it's the creation of value beyond the profit motive and beyond being coerced to do something so it's kind of fallen for entry exit action to makes you.

wonder where they grabbed from seeing what were people were doing you know for your call or is it all i think there is an interesting tension between the way consensus works online which it does if you look at how you sort of how the hive mind situation work it's it's consensus been a much less structured form and it is an interesting tension between that which is of mindset of people came to occupy with with the way this tradition this more tradition of i can call it consensus destructed consensus decision making works what works on the ground and that's a tension which i think we explored all compile and without fully fully resolving it we can see why your writing it wouldn't have been ten years ago we had these protest movements were growing up it says here at all engine or and so on a very simple letter that was in that so we can see why it would have happened to news good but why didn't it happen five years ago i think were primarily social norms around there always borne out of grievance and a sense of being agree and i think this is simply what's happening is simply

impossible without the global financial crisis. and it genuinely could have been the end of capitalism as we know it we would have had massive problems with distributing food the prom with complex societies is that when something goes wrong it goes very wrong so you think it wouldn't have happened and also for the the t.f.c. that was a that was such a drive because there are there are ten there are ten cities in the states that aren't with their people who are simply home. so. as much as agency to david. occupy sort of similar for a while for the first week or two or ten days or something until there was violence . well yes i mean one of the police violence but none the less violence is sort of what it was a and effective marketing. mechanism so we would movies are full of more i mean i research there you know i mean i was there in you know living in the park

for the first week so i can attest to the fact that we didn't summer we protested all day all week you know we occupied wall street we went and you know the opening bell in the closing bell every day we held two general assemblies a day we are you know you know there was this media report it just wasn't there i mean it really could it was blown. i mean i suppose whether it was never to you know i'm just suggesting i'm suggesting that maybe it should be based upon the experience of this event. maybe actually you know provoking police violence is something that really should be done when you don't want to how you're going to do it it's going to happen in the next one of the. region not through vocalised violence we took a radical you can record police we took a nonviolent direct action we went and we occupied the squares that we could have a general assembly and start talk about the world that we wanted to live in which we saw as completely antithetical to the world we're currently living in and the structures that governed it so yeah i mean i guess by being there by exercising

directly democratic process we're posing a threat and so the police had to respond i mean there's nothing that terrifies the american government so much as the threat of democracy breaking out in america going to there for to react violently from the start i was outside the main concourse cordon police around and i think accounts for twenty. and i'm not seeing this enough times now the docs coming out of seeing the foreign intelligence teams that will they come and. this is now where they beat the living daylights out of everything in this new media hay and they know that if they don't stop it today this could very quickly gained traction then i mean you were the coordinator for bradley manning campaign it was actually a rather interesting and unusual connection between the number of people who was some in some ways bound up with supporting wiki leaks or bradley manning or anonymous and they all five if it fits bradley manning was made an example

i mean he wasn't just arrested and then everything was kept quiet and when he was made a prominent example to act as a disincentive. because of storage he needs. to give prominent examples of what happens to people who are alleged to have have dissipate authority in order to keep authority these t.v. scenes of protest is on the receiving end of violence in the weak position in relation to buy violence do you do you think that that is also over the longer term sitting an example a negative example. well there's a there's a couple of things in i think the. what was happening to bradley. has been very badly treated over you know the un special rapporteur has come out finally said in terms of media representation of conflicts i think it's you know without doubt

the. coverage of you know what happened in the early days of new york those those were the days of the pictures that went around the globe they were it was the mainstream media they came from it was citizen major it was live stream so and i think there is a certain degree to the presence of media in the fact that something is happening in full view of the world which is a really important thing that's happened with with occupy being you know documenting itself all the time is kind of an important if it's in force i mean if it wasn't for a live stream it wasn't for our own social media teams then we wouldn't have gotten into the mainstream press reproached the dialogue in a really important way alexa talked to me about the rule of law or and the book it was one of the that the my view was the bridge seems to be. absolutely i mean i think that you know at the base of any kind of the case the united states is a democratic republic or at least it's said to be a democratic republic there are several institutions there's the civic square there's the press and there's elections and when those things are in the hands of

people the institutions sort of find their health you know because they check each other i think in terms of the rule of law i mean my own experience just if if one citizen one dollar one vote is so radical that it's got me written up in australian security mag you know tied to al qaeda and i'm getting private messages from other security contractors that have relationships with the f.b.i. telling me that you know be careful you're somehow connected to al qaeda that tells me immediately. it's an intimidation tactic you know essentially. david. it came to world prominence as a result of occupying new york but it is spread over the united states as well can you describe it this spread of occupy over the continental united states it was remarkably clear. i was that i was astounded is you know you dream of these

things happening but you never really think you're actually going to help them. i would say in three weeks we had something like eight hundred occupations and you know granted some of those occupations was like one song and but a lot of the more and a lot of them were large camps of people in places like you know in the. occupied scotch form in canada mill is remarkable out whoring and it happened very very quickly i want to get into to space so why is it important to occupy space at all. so i don't want to just stay at home you've got your rolodex you've got your friends you've got your social networking why not just coordinate from behind the scenes isn't a bit of a waste of time to put up tents and do things efficiently. but it goes back to the question about why online movements move offline until i think there is a natural human need to communicate face to face and actually it is much more

profound i think working online you're sort of is about coordinating autonomous individuals to do things and you have some feeling that you're part of a community of people that feels the same thing or is concerned about the same thing but it's nothing like. you know being in a space and say to stop you know what everyone is there and willing to you know wanting to talk to each other is actually recreating the kind of society which people exist which existed all the time i think it's also an experiment to see how far you can push your engagement with you know in the civic space meaning you know when civic space is the curve between the chuck e. cheese and the wal-mart which is which it is in the united states in a lot of cases in a lot of even small towns there is a need to create a public ness that is not private that is not related to one's job even that is is the we the way that comes together that deals with carlyle buying our water or whatever it might be david does the space have to be contested i mean

if everyone could go out into the into the redwoods of california or something. in fact the g eight is being moved off to camp david it seems in did you know in order to achieve just sort of fit what i think yes i mean i think there's been for the last thirty years there's been the systematic assault on on the notion of community and the idea of the imagination or the political imagination and this is a way of reclaiming both at the same time so i think that that idea of taking something back is critically important because it is it is a demonstration of soldier and t. in literal terms with over an area of land we physically control through our political decision making absolute space you do not physically control absolutely and that's what's critical about it i mean it's a dual power strategy i mean we are talking about force we're not talking about legalities they're not talking about legalities and neither are we might either

might deploy one as a weapon but what we're saying is this is our space this is our we're the public this is a public space. we're going to take it and that simple act of defiance. is enormously creative i mean everything always from that and everything else we've done has been from the fact that we start out without accepting the terms of the existing order and with the will to imagine a new one. in the in the domination of the physical space in creating your own little mini state at occupy which is i think the correct when you physically control an area of land when you have the monopoly on coercive force. started to erect certain structures about how to how to deal with each other. oh and how to coordinate with each other on certain methodology for dealing with the police food for dealing with opportunists within the occupy movement for dealing

with crazy people for dealing with the garbage. those methodology that you came up with for political decision making and practically dealing with things do you see them as a blueprint for dealing with why the society or a methodology. simply for all mostly for dealing with the particular problem at hand which is how to occupy the square i think we have a did have the monopoly of force within all people may would have been no easier had you know that i had had a gun to actually negotiating what you know what you do in a situation where. sort of you know any disruption that may happen actually you don't you don't have the power of coercion you have the power you have the power of persuasion you have the power of showing what you know what the majority of people in that in that space think but also you know you don't have question and that also is you know it is an education you've got you've got

a disruptive person in the you know all their mad person of the goat they're ruining it for everyone. what do you do with them. what do you do with a mean occupied how to how do you get rid of. they call the cops what do you do or don't is that you know i mean we've been we've been using a combination of things deescalation mediation and nonviolent communication have been the modes of dealing with complex within the party david if push comes to shove to the end i stay there. the rules don't apply to me i want to draw on when i want to draw but when the moment i want to talk i want to be naked with or be made . that you didn't do you need your big guys to turn up at some stage and go look buddy come on you are ruining it for everyone because all there are many ways to put pressure on. her. website is. with the drummers for instance i mean we we had an assembly where we talked

about the drumming situation we negotiated it within the realm of this somebody it likes and there certainly are conflicts and tensions that are natural to human beings in groups within occupy it's not like the the space the occupy creates suddenly is like a utopia because it isn't. at the end the to make use of a person is to deploy coercive force. it's practically it's a question that needs own strength of course but it's. and i thought the guys are so uncomfortable i think not to permit guns with these and you know this is a general an existential question where you might be with a psycho and there are people i tell you i'm inclined i was not put in psychotherapy for ten years but in the mean time you have got someone there when you're going to have band causing a problem there have been people who've been banned from meetings and things like that that's happened. i mean in a way we're we're we're we're trying to delicately move around some issues that.

perhaps we don't want to talk about so much it was intentional subversion there were attempts to sort of dump people on. there were some point the police were taking recently released prisoners and taking them buses to the park and saying hey there's precluded here. you know these it. says the opposite they just naturally appears if you have people in the camp there was a very directed attempt to try to subvert us and give us a choice between you know either being overwhelmed or kind of turning into a social welfare model where we take care of the speed but which is another thing that started happening how did occupy london prevent. the logical social group to you if you were very good in the in their words telling one thing to one person another thing to another person is pretty removed sowing dissent from rising to the top so has it.

now. you're. right it has a top it's very easy to do but it's a horizontal movement it's really quite hard i mean there's only so much damage a sociopath can do and what i always say about anarchy is them when people say well what about what about you know people who are just don't care about anyone else and result this and i'll say well yes but at least they won't end up in charge of armies which they do here you know. really only so much damage such a person. can do if they don't have a structure where they can start dominating rising to the top one thing i actually agree with william f. buckley he once said that i'd i'd rather be governed by the first three hundred names in the phone book than the people currently going to. recite i agree probably do a better job. i mean in the end what however we govern ourselves we have to be able to be competitive with those who would seek to govern us another way

absolutely so why international movement is so important and that's what we're seeing i mean there's a feeling out there that the enemy has become increasingly globalized and the only way it can be challenge is by a global movement so in that sense the whether states are competitive with one another is becoming increasingly relevant. so we've got the biggest transformation global political economy in terms of stuff going to south southeast asia with a list that i mean it's only going to end one way like clearly the west is over it's apparent to everybody but public policy makers in the west. it's just it's abundantly evident i mean these are dinner they don't really know too well i don't believe that's about ninety nine moments and money cannot come out of cash once people offer you got like. i don't know i mean it's pretty obvious that the party's over it's only make sense of the one percent is going to try to grab all the cookies if there's less cookies to grab but it seems very unlikely if you look at it historically that they're going to end up with.

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