this is on the one. network don't operate like everything we do. rejoice. make. public policy. which is born here weeks i am joined by three friends. from germany. from europe using. united states. i want to out. through the world the future of the. very very thought we're going to get is please i would like i would like to agree with you i think that architecture matters and that this is. central to everything we stand for but that this is a message that we have a responsibility to convey to the public because we understand it as technicians

who building internet every day and play with it you know this one good thing about governments is it's never simple or always simpler that is finally what is going to save us from the big brother because just going to be too many who want to be picked whether they will have fights months and so on i don't think so and you know i think that as i think we had a national it's not well let's say we're competitive with each other and now they're linking together and they're lifting off there is a delay all thinking together you are right in that first bank and i'm not sure it's really going to save our but there is the chance of actually keeping our identity and our i mean we have to stuck to our own infrastructure that's like the an important thing to learn i think this is why the copyright wars are so essential because. we spin to be a technology is since napster in one thousand nine people just understood. it that

by sharing files between individuals you. know it would be a better culture you know to practice. that's the story but you can build a bit better culture for yourself everybody will use napster don't let me finish the story of the human race is the history of culture is history of copying thoughts exotic far exactly and processing them further our culture is meant to be charlotte's dating that you're like of the certainly no i mean yeah no way of knowing. your culture you have it out culture has become sort of an industrial park you want to acquire the right to drill for your thoughts well we're feeling the thrill of you know because he's playing the devil's advocate and he's doing a very good ideas yeah it is it is in the political storytelling it is called stealing but i want to make my point here that everybody would use napster back in one thousand nine became a music fan and then went to concerts and became

a prescript or telling everybody oh you should listen to those people you should go to that concert and so on and when it is about sharing culture it is exactly the same when it is about sharing knowledge so we have example of where decentralized service is and sharing between individuals makes thing better and of cancer example is the devil's advocate you were playing where an industry comes and say all of this is stealing and this is killing everybody and killing ulti it's killing ollywood killing cinema killing kittens and everything at the end i once again have to disagree with the devil's advocate you've been playing earlier some conservative members of the european parliament today now understands it understand that individuals when they share things when they share files without a profit shouldn't be in force shouldn't go to jail shouldn't be punished we all speak about privacy of communication and the right to publish and that's something that's quite easy to understand as long history and fact journalists love to talk

about it because they're protecting their interests. but if we compare that value to the value of the previous c and freedom of economic interaction actually when every to every time we see an economic interaction every time that the cia sees an economic interaction they can say it's this party from this location to this party in this location and they have a figure to the value and importance of the interaction so isn't actually to the freedom or previous c. of the economic interactions more important than the freedom of speech whom it will carry and how to let us that's a very tough one to hear that it's because we just look from a simple intelligence perspective you've got a ten million dollar intelligence budget you can spy on people's e-mail. interactions or you can have total surveillance of the economic interactions well the party just replied which one would you prefer these days what they will do is

they will say ok we'll just forest payment and banking's to used the internet so we had those and that's. actually there was a very interesting thing from the cables says that the russian government tried to negotiate a way that visa and master card payments from russian citizens within russia would have to be processed in russia and visa master card actually refused it you know what has the power the power of the u.s. embassy and visa combined was enough to prevent even russia from coming up with its own domestic payment cuts and meaning getting out of even that even payments from russian citizens within russian to russian shops will be processed right so when you american data center when we know you as out of whack i will have heuristics no controller at this point he goes out to buy a coke thirty seconds later it is noon in washington d.c. so this and that of course is

a very unsatisfying situation independent of the fact if i like the u.s. or not this is just a very central dangerous thing to have a central place where all payments are stored because it invites de facto to all kinds of usage of that data where we are going to ensure and one of the fundamental things that cypherpunks written recognize is that the architecture actually defines the political situation so you have a centralized architecture even if the best people in the world are in control of it it acts and those that do things with their power that the original designers would not do it no matter where we look we can see especially with financial systems that that effectively even if people have the best of intentions it doesn't matter i mean the architecture is the truth it's true for the internet with regard to communications the so-called lawful intercept systems which are. which is just a nice way of saying spying on people right that stuff was built i would say you can use them willfully and so yeah sort of like a lawful murder you've heard of

a lot of a lot of rapes on american citizens by the us president obama you know when he killed on laura locky sixteen year old son in yemen that's it lawful murder or targeted killing as they put it right so so-called lawful intercept is the same thing you just put lawful in front of everything and then all of a sudden because the state does it it's legitimate but it's in fact the architecture of the state that allows them to do that at all and it is the architecture of the laws and the architecture of the technology just is the same as is the architecture of financial systems and what the cypherpunks wanted to do was to create systems where we could compensate each other in a truly free way where it was not possible to interfere and with financial issues it is the most dangerous thing to be working on i mean there's a reason that the person they created because i did so anonymously with money it's a lot more complicated and we have this things called money laundering laws and so on and they tell those you know the drug in terrorist organisations. like it's otherwise abusing the it's an origin of using the infrastructure to do evil things

actually i'd be very interested to have morris or violence companies and governments bandings to be transparent on these issues but so the question is what do we buy when we provide total anonymity of only the money system what would happen actually i think. this might lead here and there are two interesting areas where people make it themself a little more easy and they well you know i can raise my voice i can go to the parliament but i can also just by simple the titians. which we are describing to us right. there is here a real program. i think it's a pro problem germy maybe in fact it's a good attribute but those industries that are productive. those industries that

are productive i think book a great book with a lot of the right jeremy jeremy much every way but let's actually see if he can finish this sentence you know you have a very bad rap you know that for all of us master troll. those industries that are productive to produce wealth that produce wealth for the whole society in fact because that productive they have the money in order to make sure that they continue to be productive and that random legislation i think random legislation that comes comes out as a result of political with making isn't constraining their productive activities and the best way to do that is in fact to buy congressman to take. the labor of productive industries and use it to modify them or to keep the productive nature of the industry going i guess from reading writing right now i don't know.

why there are a couple of reasons but for one there's a feedback loop that is extremely negative so for example i believe the largest political campaign donor in the state of california is the prison guards union and part of the reason to do this is because they like to lobby for stronger laws not because they care about the rule of law but because it is a job and so if you see that these people are lobbying to create more prisons to jail more people to have longer sentences what is it they are effectively doing what they're doing is they're using the benefit that they actually receive for the labor that was actually beneficial arguably in the first place in order to expand the monopoly that the state grants to them in what they're allowed to do so they're just using it for wealth transfer from actual productive industries to the industries that are not productive you could sum it up that way you could also some of that but maybe that's just a small component i mean you know you're wise or every system is abused perhaps these if you like free riders that are just in the holding wealth transfer out of

her head i do hope so as are a small element of the fact the majority of the majority of the well being the majority of the influence on congress does actually come from productive industries making sure that the laws continue to meet those productive industries from being productive i think you're missing i mean ok then the question is what's the policy here is that what's what's the positive way we could fall at these things and i wonder whether we couldn't in fact sort of standardize the actual practice in the united states and formalize it so you do simply pots that none are so you actually quality when you actually buy them a lot of i don't want to say that you have that money let's assume we have the money there i had the yeah and it was all over i don't have time to do anything is a fun little lesson in this we would still have more money each one goes for milk so it's not i think it's certainly i think we wouldn't actually think the mill. industrial complex would be relatively marginalized because of their ability to operate behind backdoor in a system that is not open to general market being in fact higher than other

industries but they are simply ridiculous although i guess. there is your i just want to have the privilege dress the way this thing you just said there because there's a fundamental inequality in the system yet but there's a lot to come on no no no no real or no this is on the actual go go go this is what the fundamental inequality i mean you're the french guy on the right when you say let's let the actors decide what the police you will be i can answer you from the perspective of what was the internet in the last fifteen years where innovation was bottom up where new practice is emerged out of nothing were couple of guys in a garage invented the technology that spread like. it for nearly everything. for rethink everything everything that happened on the internet just. being unknown a few months or few few years before so you cannot predict what will be the next

innovation my point here is that it's. has to adapt to society and not the other way around we have the impression with the copyright wars that. legislator tries to make the whole society change to adapt to a framework that is defined by hollywood say ok what you're doing when you or your new cultural practice is just morally wrong so if you don't want to stop it then will design legal tools to make you stop doing what you think is good this is not the way to make good policy so i'm convinced that when you enabled the most powerful industrial actors to decide what policy should be you don't go that way. jake and you speak about a little bit about this detainment that you've had you what's it worth and why that is a good well i mean you know they've asserted that. it occurs because i know why

but you know to speak to your point about what it is like i mean depending on when you know they always give me different answers but usually they say one response which is mean uniformly across the board they say because we can. i say ok i do not dispute your authority well i do dispute your authority i do not dispute it now i merely wish to know why this is happening to me now i think i mean people tell me all the time oh isn't it obvious you work on tor. you're sitting next to julian what did you expect read i mean for example i've had people literally tell me what did you expect for for associating with people like this i've also had them tell me oh remember nine eleven that's why or because we want you to answer some questions and this is the place where you have the least amount of rights we assert and i mean the stuff that they do in this you know in this situation they deny access to a lawyer they'll deny access to a bathroom but they'll give you water right there give you something to drink in order like a direct in order to convince you that you really want to cooperate in some way

they did they did this to pressure for political reasons they asked me questions about how i feel about the iraq war how i feel about that danny war you know basically all of these steps of the way they repeated the tactics of the f.b.i. during cointelpro for example where they specifically tried to assert through their authority their authority to change political realities in my own life and to and to try to pressure me not only did change them but to give them some special access to my what's going on in my head and they've seized my property i'm not even i mean no i'm not even really a liberty to discuss all of the things that have occurred to me so this is this is a this is happen to you the chinese people i speak to when they speak about the great firewall of china in the west we talk about this in terms of censorship and that it's blocking chinese citizens from coming out and reading what is said about trying to use government in the west and by chinese dissidents and by the freedom for them but their concern is actually not about censorship they can see that in

order to have internet censorship there must also be that surveillance. you know what to check what someone is looking at to see whether it is permitted or denied them you must be seeing it in there or if you see it you can record it all and so this is had a tremendous chilling effect on chinese i guess i think that it is important to just to to remember that censorship and surveillance are not issues of other places and you know people in the west love to talk about how iranians and the chinese and north koreans they need anonymity and they need freedom and they need all of that stuff but we don't need it here and it's very important to know that actually it is not just oppressive regimes because if you happen to be in the top echelon of any regime it's not oppressive to you and so it turns out right but i mean we consider the u.k. to be a wonderful place we consider generally people think sweden is or is a pretty pretty great place and yet you can see that when you fall out of favor with the people in power that you know you don't end up in a favorable position i mean but you're still alive right so i mean clearly that's

a symbol but it's a free country my point is that is really the way we should actually speak about this i mean since this is we didn't intend no internet censorship in the way it's in wiki leaks phillis this case that people couldn't even in the accusation against you couldn't read the documents and bradley manning and so the u.s. u.s. prosecutors. did so they were going to go and set up a filtering system so that any e-mail so you say did you go on with the word wiki leaks it would be filtered and so the prosecution in attempting to prosecute the case of course was mailing back and forth about wiki leaks and didn't receive email replies because they had the word wiki leaks with them so we're like well you know this but wait a second did to the really basic question and the basic question is is there is something such as negative effect affecting information so from a society pined a few do we want censored internet because it's better for society and not and even

if we talk about child pornography you could argue saying. wait a moment this type of derby addresses a problem that is abuse of children and in order to solve the problem we need to know the problem so if you're for it for the crime the solution is always another one censorship when we talk about sample no graffiti we shouldn't even use the word on the referees representation of crime scenes of child abuse we all agree that we should remove those images from the internet. i'm sorry i just i'm squirming over here it's so frustrating to hear the argument that you're making i want to throw up right because what you just did is you said i want to erase history and you know i mean maybe i'm an extremist in this case and in many other cases i'm sure but i'm just i'm just going to go out on a limb here you know this is actually an example of where erasing history does a disservice but it turns out that with the internet we learned that there's an epidemic in society of child abuse that's what we learned with with this with this

child pornography issue you know i think it's better to call it child exploitation we see evidence of this you know covering it up erasing it is i think a travesty to do that because in fact you can learn so much about society as a whole for example you can learn and i mean you know i mean obviously never going to have a career in politics after i finish the sentence but i mean just just to be clear about this right i mean you learn for example who is producing it you learn about the people that are victimized it is impossible for people to ignore the problem but the answer is not to destroy a media or to police that media it is when you find evidence to prosecute the crimes that the medium has documented it is not to weaken that medium it is not to cripple society as a whole over this thing the easy thing to do is to pretend it doesn't exist and then to stop it and say that that has stopped the abuse doesn't and he spoke recently with the president and you and i asked him about what was going to happen

to the intelligence records you know the equivalent to the stars the aco and. and he said that well these are very interesting and the intelligence agencies. he would have to their problem in that they're dangerous and he would have to knock them off one by one but in relation to these archives. he thought it best for the cohesion of to need these in society that they will be kept secret so it wasn't a blame game and you were a young man during the fall of the stasi in east germany can you speak a little bit about the stars the archives and what you seventy one what do you think about this opening up of security archives well that germany probably has the most well documented intelligence agency on the planet or one of those german east german starts asia hides. all the handbooks procedural

papers training talks to mans internal studies internal training all the documents are roughly public i think this is a very good thing to learn from and that is what the president of tunisia should consider that he needs to distinguish between two things one is personal records i can understand that it is a bit too much to expect that they publish all the personal records to former intelligence agency has faced there's no you didn't follow the situation with in egypt so where where the mystic state security one hundred thousand strong people when they looted the looted the archive and lots of material came out and was and was spread around the place you could buy records food for two dollars in the vase and while that's not uploaded to that it hasn't destroyed egyptian society. no i'm just saying that i do have that if an understanding of people don't want their

personal records to be released i can understand that let's take a step back and you argue essentially from a completely flawed point which is this notion that the data is private when it is limited essentially and that's just not true for example in my country if a million people have a security clearance and they're allowed to access that private data point four point three million how can you call the data private right right that's the problem right is that it is not actually truly one hundred percent secret from every person on the planet it is only secret from the people it's seeing it from the pile of the powerful but there you go to go out and make sure i had i mean it's not going to go to broader issues so the internet has led to an explosion of the amount of information that is available to the public extort and it's just exploring educated fuck function is extraordinary on the other hand what is not seen and people talk about what he would and they say as

a people talk about what he likes and they say look all the private government information is now public the government can keep anything secret except if i say this is rubbish i say that wiki leaks is the shadow of the show and in fact powerful groups have such a vast amount of secret material now that. it was the amount of publicly available material and the operations of what he thinks are just of a percentage fraction of this privately held material do you think when you look at the balance between powerful insiders knowing every credit card transaction the world shadows states of information that is starting to develop and swapping with each other and developing alliance and them connections with each other and into the private sector because of that and so on this is the increased size of the commons so the is the internet is a common tool for humanity humanity to speak to a self and that and that increase in power. how do you see germany the battle in

these playing or indeed the big someone to get there and try to make the link between five hundred stations ago and three conversation they go in because when we talk about concentrating power we once again talk about architecture and when we talk about internet censorship it is about centralizing the power to get online what people remain be able to access or not and whether it's government censorship or also private on censorship there are changing the architecture of the internet from one universal network to a balcony ization of smaller seven networks but what we are discussing since the beginning are all global issues whether we're talking of the the financial system going henri whether we're talking of corruption whether we're talking of geopolitics or energy or environment or i don't know all of these are global problems that mankind is facing today and we have one still one global tool between

our hands that enables better communication better sharing of knowledge better participation in in political and democratic process what i feel what i suspect is that a global universal internet is the only tool we still have between our hands to sort of wrestle them those global issues and this is why this is a central fight that we have to fight and that we all have a responsibility here to to to fight this notion from certain points that code is law on the internet what you can do is the following by what programs are existing or programs run and therefore code is. absolutely the key thing i think that people should walk away with especially if there's some sixteen year old or eighteen year old person there wishes they could make the world a better place the thing they have to know is that you can build alternatives and everyone everyone especially with the internet is empowered to do that for the

context that they exist and. and it is not that they have a duty to do it but it is that if they wish to do this they can and if they do that they will impact many people especially with regard to the internet and building those alternatives has an amplification and magnification where i think you use one just for you if you if you build something you can serve it to a billion people we know what i see that's why i'm here because if i don't support you now in the things that you are going through what kind of world to my building what kind of message do i send when i let a bunch of pigs push me around no way never we have to build and we have to change that we have to i mean as gandhi said right you have to be the change you want to see in the world but you know you have to be the trouble you want to see in the world too.

tens of thousands of opposition activists have rallied in central moscow with agendas raging from the far left to nationalist extremist. violence intensifies across syria with un observers pointing out a spike in coordinated rebel attacks which government troops have to repel clashes leading to foreign powers increasingly hinting at intervention. and no room for refugees after promising to provide sanctuary israel begins arresting african migrants who fled violence in their homeland and plans to deport over four thousand people. from our studios in that central moscow you're watching archie with me and he said

now it's eight pm here in the russian capital good to have you with us we begin with a mass opposition protests that has taken place in moscow the dead. strace and drew activists ranging from i should say a range of political groups and went off peacefully in contrast to a violent rally last month that time there were dozens of injuries and protests or two protesters and police with criminal cases filed against those who started trouble archies peter oliver brings us the latest from central moscow we saw tens of thousands of people demonstrating on the streets of moscow they came from all across the political spectrum in the country from the far left to far right extremist groups have to say the the nationalists and far right groups were amongst the the largest in attendance now why was tape walking with those demonstrators along the route i did see several amongst the group of nationalists wearing variations on all nazi you know.