this war torn country what remains to be seen is whether the syrian civil war call for the entire region. to cross-talk serious serious situation i'm joined by brian becker in washington is the national coordinator of the answer coalition in norman we have joshua landis he's director of the center of middle east studies and associate professor of middle eastern studies at the university of oklahoma and in istanbul we cross the do how much he general manager of the news agency all right crosstalk rules in effect gentlemen that means you can jump in anytime you want brian back in washington it's called the civil war now now this war will end with winners and losers who will be well let's start peter by making clear that the united states government the western powers england france the former colonizers of the middle east have actually promoted civil war they promoted civil war because their go in the case of syria as it was in libya as it was in iraq is to overthrow the existing

independent government now is syria unlike libya and unlike iraq has a different set of political and social contours clearly the syrian government has a mass popular base the opposition also has a base of mass proportions in the case of syria they are being assisted internationally by russia and by china in the case of the opposition they're being supported by the united states britain france and the client regimes the gulf states saudi arabia qatar turkey and so you see a civil war but it civil war with international dimensions and the international situation will of course have a direct impact on the outcome i believe that there is going to be protracted conflict i think the syrian government is fighting to the finish and their allies russia in this case recognize that if they were to be overthrown the united. states

would create in syria a proxy client regime as they have in iraq and as they have been libya ok if i go to you and i ask the question who would be the winners and losers when considering what we just heard here only the syrian people lose i guess the loser of the syrian people and this is very upset because yes there are international dimensions of the crisis but all of the more than more than ten thousand people killed so this is enough to see. is the name but in my view of the war all of this started unfortunately and people are dying there for four or four months and then i look from the from from a regional post back to i am afraid that implode internally explode because there are countries related to the syrian crisis the first

member. lebanon which is already had experienced terrible civil war which can repeat again because sectarian well it looks like look i'm going to fire for the entire region joshua if i can go to you it seems to me that it's very simplistic in western media if assad goes it's all over or that overt the civil war that will end the civil war just because assad leaves and i don't think he will go ahead no it won't no it's not going to end the civil war what we're seeing is is a sectarian civil war twelve percent alawite at the top of syrian society sixty five percent arab sunni at the bottom there not a bottom they're wealthy but they haven't had power and they're going to overthrow this alawite regime i believe and we've seen the same thing happen when the colonial powers france and britain left the region in the second world war they left my nor. already is in charge in all the eleven thousand states and what's

happened in the post colonial era is that the minorities have been thrown out of power the maronites in lebanon the sunnis in iraq the the jews in palestine of course have been able to become a majority and they've solved their problem by by becoming the majority in gathering jews from around the world and of course pushing out muslim palestinians but the alawite it's the last minority that rules and that's the heritage of the french colonial period the sunni muslims are going to overthrow them i believe and what's going to be a protracted war because it's becoming a proxy war as your your guests have have mentioned and so it's going to be a long struggle and i'm joshua's you're going to history here liz very important let's take a look at some of the recent events in syria. am syria has descended into civil war and all means including force should be used under

international supervision to help restore peace this is the take on the situation in syria voiced recently by friends french foreign minister for abuse said he would propose that the un security council vote on a resolution giving u.n. members a mandate to intervene in syria possibly as part of a military operation william hague disagreed with his french counterpart claiming britain should not intervene in syria as the situation there is far from critical clearly we're not we're not looking for any foreign military intervention and. i think we should not think about this in terms of. another libya at odds with the higgs believe that the world will not see the libyan scenario in syria u.n. observers were physically heard in the country they were attacked with stones metal rods and gunfire that broke them from a rebel held town a gray civilians which he had tracked they got traveling syria became infamous why it was inducted in the un's list of shame countries named for their physical and

sexual abuse of children in allentown plates we're not taking sides in this conflict the only side we're on is the side of the syrian people women men and children who are suffering in syria. by blaming we're not saving lives so let's stop this game please because it ain't a game and number of worldly days claimed syria isn't it. the world series foreign minister however said the civil war was an unrealistic description of the conflict but what it's labeled to civil war or not it is hard to deny terrorism and revenge killing kidnappings and ransom mornings and attacks on state institutions as well as the destruction of public and private property in the country and they you deny for crosstalk moscow. and i to go back to istanbul i mean one of the interesting things is the libyan scenario never was

point it was supposed to happen for libya and now people are talking about it in terms of syria there's no such thing as intervention lite i mean we hear people talk about intervention a lot of voices in turkey i mean if there's an intervention it's going to be fall out like we saw in libya which libya wasn't supposed to happen in the first place as i pointed out. in my view there is. entering. bloodshed and turkey of course doesn't apply to all unilaterally but what is lacking here is this is turkey involved arming the opposition in syria today. turkey turkey doesn't take off but there are people all civilians and some soldiers or militias coming and going out from the warders but turkey doesn't accept that they're arming militias but i mean it is it is very difficult to find

a settlement because there is a. difference of opinion within syria in terms of people and the international community so this is this is the sad aspect of the syrian crisis in libya at least there was a consensus to help people being massacred there but since there are some falls on this constance's now especially the russian government there is no law there's no reason to if i could go to brian there's a lot of consensus in the west ok about ending the regime in damascus is calling for regime change really is escalating the violence. well that's really what's behind the violence i mean the preponderance of fours was with the syrian government if it hadn't been for the outside interference the arming of the opposition the promotion of civil war by the united states britain france and their clients in the region this would not have evolved to this point was it inevitable

that there would be a sectarian conflict as joshua seems to seems to ponder there i think the united states and britain and france are honoring change path they recognize the vulnerabilities in different societies if they're if they're divided based on religion or ethno sectarian divide those divisions are then utilized in order to break up the country we see in the case of in the case of iraq that's precisely what what the united states the united states did that in the case of yugoslavia it was an inevitable that you would break apart it was picked apart by foreign powers that had their own agenda in the case of syria the united states britain and france are in the are in the quest that we colonize you know of a different kind of colonization but of colonization nonetheless of the entire or oil rich geo strategically important region the period the people of syria are are sort of pawns in somebody else's geo strategic chessboard and that's why this civil

war is happening ok josh is this. a colonial project i mean to echo what we just heard. well if we want to look at the geostrategic dimension at the end of the second world war the united states. understood that it had defeated hitler by denying him oil and his panzers and his air force came to a stop and that oil was going to come out of the persian gulf for the united states in preparing for the third world war wanted to make sure that it had sewed up the persian gulf now iran is trying to push america out of the first gulf syria is iran's ally russia china have important interests with iran and syria they see syria not so much as important in and of itself but as a marker it's a canary in the mine shaft if syria falls you know the world in the west is going to turn on iran and they want regime change in iran even more than they wanted in syria and in many western analysts of course are asking for regime change in syria

so that they can carry out regime change in iran it will weaken iran that's the i mean just you know i'm sorry but it was only a few weeks ago going to be weeks ago or a few months ago everyone is talking about the democratic forces of syria what happened to that well the united states wants to use this sunni revolt and the arab spring in order to change the regime in syria because it will help the united states it will bring in theory it could rain syria out all right now don't rush we're going to go to a short break and after the show i want to continue our discussion on syria stay. anything. you want to. there hasn't been anything yet on t.v. . it is to get the maximum political fact.

the full source material is what helps keep journalism honest when. we want to present. something. comfort is the least you have. money is the last you need if you travel this way. language is common ok. emotions are intense. i do experience crisis.

you know sometimes you see a story and it's so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else hundreds of thousands they just bombed led me into smithereens there in germany and the whole idea that they states care about the lives of arabs is just nonsense or about democracy they support starting this audience. on saudi arabia. going to be our you should also you should know you forget that the operation started. and then un approval so this is really important that this is how they want to play it as i mean we've. that's a figure of three and there is a larger question ok josh you want to jump in there the interesting thing you're quite right there the interesting thing is that it was once the no fly zone resolution was passed by the united nations when we come came to libya that's where the real death and destruction started go ahead josh. yeah no there is there is no

doubt that there was a structural problem here and that is that this the syrian regime has been very brutal in order to maintain itself unpowered skep the police state now you can argue whether a police state is the right state in a country that isn't very it doesn't have strong national cohesion but it has been brutal and the syrian people have been revolting against it because it's failed economically they're very poor they're unemployed and it is brutal so we can't deny that the question is that in this regime change america and other countries begin to forget about the humanitarian issue and sanctions are very destructive tool and you begin to get this proxy war which then turns it into a grinding civil war and that's the danger the danger is that this process gets locked into a civil war that will hurt the syrians and russians do they say look at america hasn't brought democracy to afghanistan to iraq to any these places it's brought chaos and islamic fanaticism and so russia take some comfort i think in countering

the democracy argument by saying this isn't democracy this is chaos and there is an element of truth to that because the taliban came to power after america it waged a bloody proxy war in afghanistan and empowered the islamic fundamentalists and we're in this mess today because of a situation very much like what's happening in syria today and that's the danger is that we end up with an afghanistan type scenario in syria because of this proxy war and each side funding. one side in this is going to sway me go back to istanbul here what's going to happen to these minorities ok and you know because if we do have this outcome with the regime falls the minorities that are protected by that and they support the regime here they just going to you know move out and you know find a home somewhere else i mean what you know what i'm getting at here is that what i'm getting at here this is we could see ethnic cleansing. the interim unity and therefore the opposition in syria opposition yet is not able to convince people

especially from the minorities from the elo eyesore from the christians that they could. freedoms and they are the marketing clients so this is one of the basic principles of the regime's existing existence or vegeta missy but there's also another concern that in most in the early ninety's because of the international interaction and international differences we lost more than two hundred thousand people in was there so i mean yes it is very difficult to shelve the crisis but what is ultimately. so this is a good thing i think this is brian interested more should go ahead go ahead jump in i think i think the example of yugoslavia by your guest in turkey is turned upside down yugoslavia was a multinational country that lived in relative peace between the nationalities for

a long time until the soviet union collapsed and then western powers noticing knowing that it was vulnerable because it was multinational started arming and financing different groups based on nationality and creating the conditions for civil war in bosnia and then at the end nato went in and dropped twenty three thousand bombs and missiles on serbia for three months until they could break away kosovo and we colonized that is that something good is that something is that the kind of action that we want for syria of course not of course what happens in syria i'm not defending every element of the assad government far from it. how a government functions internally matters a great deal to the people in the country and there could be lots of legitimate grievances which there are i'm talking about what the western powers have in their up their sleeve in terms of their agenda and why they're promoting civil war that's right josh if i go to you and i think brian brings that's a really good point breeze of a very good point what's next ok because it seems to me that the west will change

this regime forcibly they're really good they have a habit of doing it but they never seem to figure out what to do after they've done it are you any better this time. it's very difficult you know i see it quite differently than brian in a sense that yugoslavia turn into a mass not because the west forced it to become a mass but because tito had kept a tight lid on a multi-ethnic mess and when it came off the place exploded and we're seeing something similar throughout the leavened when the ottoman empire was destroyed. creating nation states with one ethnicity inside is very difficult and turkey is a prime example turkey turkey anatolia ethnically cleansed it's christians there were about sixty of all of anatoly was christian turkey in some ways is able to devolve towards democracy today because of that ethnic cleansing that's the danger the jewish state israel jews from out throughout the middle east were ethnically

cleansed and they beat up the palestinians in order to grab a hunk of territory so they've been successful but it's been a great price now syria in some ways is still a no is arc it's got to have everything it's this multi-ethnic multi confessional society that hasn't figured out how to get along so the dangers of real revenge possible ethnic cleansing are there and you can't divide it like yugoslavia into separate states an alawite state a druze state a kurdish state an arab state it's too small it's too mixed up so this is where the challenge for the international community comes is how to save lives and not to allow that kind of revenge killing to take if i go back to assemble i mean a lot there go ahead brian but i was going i was going to say the longer this civil war goes on the one likely there's going to be jeffersonian democrats running around later the international community concept. is a myth you have a different you have a regional interest in the case of turkey they have their own regional ambitions in the case of saudi arabia got tired kuwait they're functioning basically as clients

and proxies of western powers and the western powers and especially the united states which sometimes uses nato and sometimes acts unilaterally have a grander design for the middle east and that's. what's going on if you if we can't separate the internal and domestic and legitimate struggles of people against democratic governments and exempt from the global picture where western powers the most powerful militaries in the world are intervening to break up or overthrow governments or partition countries then we just don't see the big picture ok if i go back to istanbul i mean what is the endgame here because you know we've heard on this program already if we go to afghanistan iraq we have libya i mean all are just in tatters right now ok is can we expect the same thing for syria all in the name of democracy or these other lofty ideas. i wish i could say to the game. very depressing situation but.

my friends that the western involvement in this region is not is not helpful i mean looking to looking to. other cases but i ask them what is the what is ultimately the ultimate it is dictatorship are the people in this syria in another country is this the need to be ruled by the regimes. or if i could ask all of my guests here i mean why should the west be few ating one side arming one side i mean there is the west by choosing a side is perpetuating a civil war joshua i go to you you have the last word of the program go ahead. well this is a big challenge for syrians not to allow the outside powers to dictate what happens and they have to take control and the opposition in syria is very fragmented they're big challenge right now is to become unified and to make their interests

dominant otherwise this will just go on for a very long time and it will end up in destroying syria as some neighboring countries have been destroyed so this is really up to the syrians to become unified which is a very hard task ahead very hard task and i thank you very much gentlemen for being on the program many thanks indeed to my guests in washington norman and in istanbul and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember.

the twists and turns of egypt's politics become ever more winding off the constitutional court dismisses the country's parliament that move likely to bring protesters throwing back onto the streets. with deadly strings attached to america's use of armed man drugs worldwide weapons being seen more as an aerial serial killer than a tool to aid anti terror ups. and you an observer rushed to the syrian town of half of finding it shattered by a week of bloody fighting for the national report suggesting rebels scorched the area before abandoning. two pm here in moscow my name's kevin zero in this is coming to your life and our top story this hour calls for an uprising

a growing at louder yet again in cairo that's after egypt's supreme constitutional court dissolved the country's newly elected parliament and have held the right of mubarak's last prime minister to continue running for president a corresponding poll asli has the details of the surprise turn around. here in cairo. and left wing activists as well as liberals sick and many muslim brotherhood are outraged earlier there were demonstrations in front of the constitutional court and now as we speak crowds are starting to. gathered in tahrir square the off wage is really because many objections feel that what has developed here is a carefully maneuvered plan by the supreme council of the armed forces scaf to remain in power looking at a decision that was announced yesterday just two days before an important presidential runoff and according to that decision the islamicist dominated parliament has been dissolved in addition.