unofficial lead in the first democratic presidential. should be an. execution. he takes the lead. for the debt crisis will still be giving g. twenty leaders. in mexico. and the.

iran. nuclear program the president. agrees to supply it. all right now. with. crosstalk. if you. want to. blow in welcome to cross talk on peter lavelle what is the state

of the american empire is it suffering from military overreach and can he continue to afford such a massive global military presence can the u.s. and its allies really afford more wars of choice and importantly is empire damaging the very foundations of american society. and. to cross-talk the u.s. empire i'm joined by her at london in new york he is president emeritus of the hudson institute also in new york we have george samuel he is a journalist foreign policy analyst and author of the new book on humanitarian interventions bomb for peace and in boston we cross to john walsh he is a political activists and contributor to antiwar dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rose in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want john if i go to you first in boston how would you assess the state of american empire because we have a democrat in power doesn't look that much different to republican was in power so what is the state of the american empire in your mind well it's nice to be on and

to join this discussion i think the very way you put it american empire is something that we don't often hear in the united states for many people but the idea that we have a military empire despite our one thousand bases around the world is a new idea or one that they might not have considered at all. but i think you know john if i can ask you why is that why is that the case you think i mean what with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mace bases around the world a global presence of a military that is not even comparable to any other country in the world in the history of the world and americans don't know about it well i think in a certain way they don't if you ask people if you ask people how much we spend. our military and our military reach if you ask people how many bases we have around

the world most don't know most or surprised but i think that is changing and i think. it's changing across the board as a matter of fact although he won't win the republican nomination for president i think the appearance of ron paul and the libertarian sentiment which is against these foreign interventions and principal humanitarian or not that's a that's the appearance of a new thought recently. and the american political spectrum and it comes from what we traditionally consider the right that's something new and i think that gradually the idea that we have an empire it's in compatibility with democratic form of government and it's cost is dawning on the american people and you're getting way ahead of me because you're covering almost all kinds of stuff you got your guy but i was going to say john you're covering all the topics you want to cover in this program herb go ahead jump in well let me just let me just let you go if it is not

enough when you have plenty of time go ahead her ok ok go ahead. what well first i think that it's very unusual to describe this is an american empire i wouldn't describe it an american empire at all we have no desire for territorial acquisition that is certainly not the purpose of having bases across the world if anything the united states is engaged in trying to create equilibrium and as far as ron paul being a unique voice. you have to do is turn the clock back to nine hundred fifty five robert taft was talking about american isolationism at that time and clearly that's the isolationists point of view that you hear from ron paul it's quite unacceptable and seems to me wonder if you had a miracle here and what is what and i didn't mean i'm going to balance internationally what is the united states trying to balance out if it's equal we're going to bellow who is it. again librium against the radical forces that exist in islam against what was formerly the communist empire i think what the united states is attempting to do is to create stability in many sections of the

globe ok george what do you think about all of it where it will be our go ahead george. yes i really disagree with that the united states is in the business of creating equilibrium the lack of equilibrium that we have is precisely created by the united states we see for instance today in libya where we once had a very very. ineffective form of government now after the u.s. intervention last year or the u.s. nato intervention last year we now have complete chaos we have absolutely no government at all we have a country that is run by a militia gangsters is alarmist these are all being hoisted into power through the thought out intervention last year and now we're seeing the same scenario being played out in syria. again states and its allies are in effect sponsoring and fueling the insurgency that is bound to lead to a civil war and

a total collapse of society in syria and the persecution of minorities so it's very hard to say that somehow the united states is in the business of creating stability you know the united states is a force for instability and for fueling radical forces around the world all right gentlemen let me jump in here we're going to go to our short report on the there's nothing wrong with that i mean america america you heard about go back to after this report. and then my act feel in this train the world's only superpower the united states of america is experiencing severe economic political and social pressures and for a growing number of observers the country. be able to police the world is its own backyard overreach you flee to them to nation building and force democracy promotion under both democrats and republicans you seen the empire exhaust itself

despite our repeated warnings khadafi continued his reckless policy of intimidation is relentless pursuit of terror he counted on america to be passive. he counted wrong as two hours ago allied air forces began an attack on military targets in iraq in kuwait today our armed forces joined our nato allies in airstrikes against serbian forces responsible for the brutality in kosovo on my orders coalition forces have begun striking selective targets on military importance to undermine saddam hussein's ability to wage war the u.n. security council passed a strong resolution that demands and to the violence against citizens that authorize the use of force irrespective of which party holds the white house the scene geopolitical agenda has been in place no single bomb were all set of powers would be tolerated on the global stage to challenge them merican empire such

a policy has been costly and care was was it tremendous burdens for the global economy and the american taxpayer in two thousand and eleven alone over seven hundred billion dollars was spent on the military an increase of more than forty billion dollars from two thousand and these has greater political blowback at home young people right now have no hope in our society i just want to see a fairer more just society for young people coming up and all of the american people right now are suffering through these hard economic times the dollar is wow is going through bad times and is a loser need to try to miss was international treat conducted in local currencies and you as dad growing by leaps and bounds the future of the american empire looks bleak but the habit of hegemony it would appear is a hard one to quit that is your initial crossed. ok how about i want to go back to you because you're turning into the odd man out

and i want to give you as much fair time as possible right ahead. well thank you i appreciate it look i think it's rather astonishing that we're talking about libya without any mention of gadhafi i mean you mean to say that gadhafi was a realistic democratic proponent of jeffersonian principles or if you're looking at assad the killings in syria i just applied because after all there might be chaos after or a civil war in syria even though there are killings that are going on proposed to put in the promoted by the government of i mean her i think it's just a lot of people would be saying a lot of people would say in all fairness it's a very selective you know these are dictators and countries the u.s. doesn't like and you know it has a geopolitical edge as i mean we can look at bahrain look at saudi arabia these are not my you know there's oppression in bahrain in saudi arabia stage and i surrounded me ok syria i mean can i jump in here just go right ahead and i want to hear obviously the united states is selective ok john go ahead jump in i thought i'd like to say something about yes. first of all the libyan case there was

something extremely wrong about our action in libya for the war in iraq at least george bush took the time to lie to congress about going in barack obama completely five of the constitution he never even asked for a vote of congress he went in and waged a war that is an impeachable offense secondly some of the facts about libya are left out there kyra it's all over africa all over the world but libya was unique in africa in one sense there's united nations has a number which of the signs to every country called the human development index it includes gender equity it includes a level of literacy it includes standard of living it includes health care now in libya had the highest human development index in all of africa so which dictator did obama and his buddies decide to overthrow it was the libyan dictator and there

weren't so limited i mean i said you know look i mean when it's. i submit i submit that the reason why didn't i submit that the reason that gadhafi was overthrown had nothing to do with his with the way he governed it had to do with the fact that he was not under the thumb under the control of the empire which is exactly why russia and china and iran are official enemies has nothing to do with human rights it's an excuse keep in mind our range of choices and the opportunities is so long and there's a terrorist that's going to that he has a moment i want to have you know what i have fair time on this program go ahead you want to react to what you just heard go ahead. i was going to say i think the president also acted inappropriately i happen to agree with you i think that we were in there for a short period of time passed the baton to nato and nato ran out of ordinance and the united states had to continue this battle look it seems to me that that was inappropriate but if you're talking about syria the united states is not directly in a position is really it's the russians that are directly involved in syria the united

states is not involved in large part because we wouldn't even know who to back if the united states were to get involved and i want to go to georgia just going to go to georgia now run out of the break georgia where we have to this go ahead. well yes i i think that. clearly what we have now in libya for instance is a government that is far far worse than what was the case if it got to no one is saying he was a democrat but only the other day some attorneys who had come from the international criminal court were arrested by the new government and i just being held indefinitely i mean at least on the gaddafi he had actually cooperated with the international courts when he handed over the lockerbie bombers so this is clearly a de generation rather than progress all right gentlemen i'm struggling and we're going to short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the american empire state with our teeth.

there hasn't been a thing yet on t.v. . it is to get the maximum political impact. the full source material is what helps keep journalism honest we. we want to present. something else. an issue free could you take should be free to store charges free or make amends free. three stooges free.

download free broadcast quality video for your media project a free media zero down to r.t. dot com you. can. start. welcoming your crosstime people to imagine we're talking about america's exceptional empire. and you can. start. ok george i'd like to go back to you in new york i mean we're earlier in the program we heard that the united states is has a vast empire because it needs a great equilibrium of security in the world i would posit that the more the united states advances its empire in the world the more it creates blowback i mean this is

really what we get i mean again entering intrusions into arab lands i mean we're making enemies that we didn't need to have ok and i personally can't understand why the united states has such interest in syria what a political interest as it have there maybe it's called iran i don't know go ahead . yes i think that what the united states is trying to do is creating a bloc of subordinate states committed to. the u.s. military agenda and committed to the u.s. corporate capitalism whereby you know socialism for the few and capitalism for the many massive wealth of the few. largely poverty for the many and i think that's what it's really about syria libya. iran. and of course iraq before that we're all in some ways faulting us ambitions in the middle east as a one off or another the us has targeted each of these states so this is absolutely

nothing to do with human rights violations or recently involved the u.s. really though the u.s. allies is a saudi arabia and bahrain are the worst human rights violators in the middle east this is really about the geopolitical agenda of subordinating a large swath of the middle east to. the u.s. military economic agenda ok herb you want to get in there that have air time gentlemen herb go ahead well i was going to say i mean this this case i this case i marxist analysis is really absurd where's the united states where's the evidence of the united states involvement in syria i mean obviously the united states would love to see assad fall but we're not entirely happy about what the consequences of that might be and that is a continuing conversation that is taking place in our state department at the moment the idea that the united states knows what it wants to achieve in syria is ridiculous will hurt if you want to see her in all fairness sure you want to hear in all fairness the secretary of state that says assad must go so the united states does have an interest in the fate of syria one way or another ok and what is the

united that is it is a city in the middle that it wasn't really something everybody wanted to please please every time the united states says somebody has to go you know what they do eventually john in boston you want to jump in. yes yes i want to go back to a couple things first of all i want to go back to something herb said he said that the idea of isolationism is nothing new in american politics well it's true i said recently it's new it hasn't made its appearance here in about half a century since the fifty's what's new this time is that this idea of nine interventionism which the right likes to war parties like to call isolationism they can if they want it's a perfectly fine word. this this time it's not a child of the left or the right it's we know it's a child of both and i want to point out. if i can give a plug here to this book come home america two years ago forty of us activists

writers met together in washington and produced this book of essays now what was interesting about this group this is an anti-war protests of the liberties group but it didn't just include the left the editor of the american conservative who was there as was the editor of the nation and ralph nader was the keynote speaker at the insistence of the right the american conservative and others this is something new and it is something which tows tells us that a certain segment of the intelligentsia with very different ideological roots is fed up with war and empire and one more thing if we were interested in human rights the worst violation of human rights in a way is apartheid and we right now not only don't bomb the state of israel which is jimmy carter said is an apartheid state just like south africa except it's directed at the care of me and i just want to exercise i mean if we were in balmy

we would be bombing we would be bombing israel instead israel has a disproportionate effect on our foreign policy to encourage the support of a all right so i want to live right here they're going to heard about i mean what are now what is what we just heard there and a lot of people say it outside of the united states that more and more people in the end i really have tended by the idea that it's hypocrisy that's what we just heard it's hypocrisy american empire as well i heard apocryphally but you also heard a complete misunderstanding of what is happening in the middle east israel is not an apartheid state jimmy carter can make that assertion that doesn't make it true and even if the united states were to engage in the kind of isolationism that you make reference to john it seems to me there would still be war in the world the idea that the united states is responsible for war is an absurdity there is war they're occurring all the time and if the united states were to pull back all that straight didn't say that back within our borders there would still be wars everywhere. so that the notion that somehow the united states is responsible for

instability that this so-called empire that you make reference to is what the problem is is ridiculous on its face ok george i'd like to go to you since the break up of the yugoslavia has every single conflict the west is engaged in has been a war of choice true or false yes yes that's absolutely right because as we looked at the case of yugoslavia which was really the first post cold war conflict in each case throughout those years the united states was in the business of sabotaging every possible peace agreement that was on the table in those bosnia there was one peace agreement after another that was on the point of being signed from the arab lands of the van so implant of the orange scholten birth plan to the e.u. action plan every time there was of the agreements are on the table the united states went out of its way to sabotage it so that you could get its bombing in and you could get it's a vindication of nato the same thing happened in cost of again there were any number of possible agreements on the table the united states went out of its way to

sabotage it and then we said the same thing the same scenario again and again we saw this in iraq where we had the hans blix mission which was everything was going to be in continued there was there was weapons inspection there was clearly no evidence of weapons of mass destruction but the bush administration was determined on a war in iraq the same thing in happened in libya we had the african union mission where we had the president zuma of south africa said look we've got a peace agreement on the table the united states went out of its way to sabotage or now we have the same thing in syria we have the annan group the kofi annan plan and again the united states is determined to ensure that this annan plan fails so yes the united states is a force for instability any there's a phony war i mean some people actually head out her in new york go ahead go ahead her. well the idea that the united states is trying to undermine the annan plan the end of plan can work on its face i mean that's very clear but pillory clinton made it perfectly clear that you want to do everything that she can to cooperate with

kofi anon so the idea that somehow we're sabotaging this is ridiculous we'll let you hear this i heard anyone say in the let me let me ask amy also if syria you will really understand that he wants to support these claims gentlemen thing to say the moment you come on here well no to just lie then i think we're a lot of things we disagree on this program that's why we're doing it ok but her when secretary clinton says assad must go i mean how does that help the peace process. it helps the peace process and because there have been roughly twelve thousand people that have been killed on the streets of syria and if you ask those people would you like to see assad go the answer would be yes and if you had if you were to poll the syrians fairly that would be the response you get as well so it's perfectly clear that if you have someone who is butchering his own people yes he must go must go largely because and what i mean a real human right away should an army would have been and i write in boston come on did you know you did reach out to johnny and i just for is it turns out as it

turns out i have and i just returned from a trip to peru i went there to see much of picher but what i found in peru much to my surprise is that isn't covered in the western press is that in the in the last few months in two different provinces states of emergency have been ordered and one was in fact while i was there in the province of spin are and in that case the presence campus in those who are protesting against pollution by the big mining companies and the president a friend of the united states a liberal of sorts a kind of obama figure had presence shot down by the dozens now there's a person killing his own people to use a phrase that was just used about syria but we don't hear about it we hear about human rights violations very selectively in certain places that are the enemies official enemies of the united states and i would also say that the american people are beginning to wise up to the cost of this military machine that i would call an

empire we are income tax our personal income tax draws in a trillion dollars roughly in revenue the national security state the zero d. cia the foreign aid and all the rest come to over one trillion dollars a year all our personal income tax all of it is needed to cover the cost of empire one trillion dollars the gross product of the whole world is sixty trillion. so the united states alone forget about its allies is spending one in sixty dollars of the world's g.d.p. and its military empire that is a scandal let me and it's been going on if you will in i have heard somewhere and it seems very gentlemen her with her let me provide you with some facts that you appear to be unfamiliar with we spend four and a half percent on defense in the united states of g.d.p. four and a half percent of fifteen point five trillion dollars that's not an awful lot if you're talking about the budget it's roughly three and

a half trillion dollars we collect two and a half trillion dollars from taxpayers now one trillion two and a half trillion dollars the largest expense in the united states purrs on the way i didn't say i didn't care that much because i said social security i said social security medicare and medicaid i think al gore sixty percent of the budget in the united states all right gentlemen where you are george i want you i mean what i do what is yours you are what he has been mentioned here and i want to get to it and i want it i want to get to it before the end of the program is the empire good business. you know i really don't think it's good business i think that the united states has been. an empire i think clearly the inequalities of wealth that we're seeing in the united states is tied to an empire i mean this is clearly. of a kind of the domestic a military general and you see here that how when he when he comes to anything that's important domestically in the united states such as health care reform it's almost impossible to get any serious health care reform done but when it comes to

military intervention i mean it's just done overnight i mean obama just says we're going to do this we're going to bomb libya there's no discussion no. no no and no kind of congressional oversight we just go ahead and bomb and it's the same goes with any kind of war at all you know we had last week we had a stories in the new york times about obama ordering a sign gentlemen much more to disguise the fascinating discussion but we've run out of time many thanks to my guest today in new york and in wasilla and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember last time. and if. you want. my. world with. science

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