that you all were just seconds away from the end of the show here but thank you so much definitely an interesting conversation we could talk more about it another time that was an alleyway uber executive director of the national abstinence education association that's going to do for now will be right back here in a half hour. i'm julian assange. that is true of wiki leaks expose the world secrets these documents belong united states government being attacked by the

powerful united states strongly condemn going after what people illegally shoot five hundred days now i've being detained without charge but that hasn't stopped us . today where on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow. from humble origins my next guest in run come became a household name as captain of pakistan's victorious cricket team he then left sports and launched his movement for justice party in the most dangerous political environment on a. four years can anticorruption party was ignored in two thousand and seven us state department cables referred to him as pakistan's one man party. but pakistan is changing. over the last two years widespread anger over u.s. drone strikes and corrupt political dynasties has proven millions to his cause i

want to know why is he now front runner to be the next leader of pakistan. hi julie . i'm all right i have a bit of a cold but i think that's a good thing because my voice is a bit sexier than normal and i have to go basically. everything. stick to use it with you having a very interesting time well i think your interesting time is a bit more interesting than my interesting time i saw these videos of your rallies last night so i think this is great but i worry you're going to get blowed up. so i hope your interesting time doesn't get any more into this didn't you go to go sometime yeah the seven of those are some of them just. like i mean i was you know when i saw this guy's hospital so i used to see you but it got me going in six months later they were gone so i have a completely different attitude to life and you know around for long so you might as well make the most of it. you don't realize that you're back to. the wiki leaks

mid not just. let me let me pour you a rare broken off for some reason where we're just lost you for a minute ok you're you're back again. back the middle of the world but by the sun the with the exposed all of these two faced politicians you know who was sucking up to the american in the same. drive and telling them how great they were. you know sucking up to them and public giving completely opposite state it was a rare specially this one really just this guy. who was declaring leads this religious logic and he literally doing the americans he said look if you badly need to become the prime minister i would never want to do. and he's considered the most anti american politician so he was it was a. it really exposed

a lot of people to. know him run can you describe what what are the big power factions in pakistan is the i.s.i. the army is the supreme court the old families how would you describe the basic power structure of pakistan. well the babylon five just aren't just like in the middle east is above a statistical and trans-jordan status call what you call the boss structure benefitted from the system and the majority of the population want to change it so what do you see in the middle east his exact numbers but as the west looks upon muslim societies and there's some war going on within fundamentalist and liberals islam and fundamentalists the brothers actually and this is really the divided up in the muslim world which is why everyone looks surprised by the arab spring and by is the one with the following i have been are is the sin by the same people who are

going to go to the middle east people want to get james and his disposal now what does this do just one focused on with the political mafia else all of the political parties have not got it together against me so they have sort of the this is a desert this is a good some of them got this is a good sign is it iran that if people are gathering around to oppose you very very must be scared. oh maybe five because the last time by the sun we saw red is as big as the doing to god one of. the lot and one was forty years ago was the go you would do the five don't be uneasy and when that's these sort of the numbers don't know you swept the election he just went and he was an underdog and the statistical bodies along the way so that's what the courts did we researched the wiki leaks cables from islamabad to see what they said

about you and in two thousand and seven the us ambassador said. who's p.t.i. party is effectively a one man show has little to lose his credibility rests in his soul created role as a politician he sticks to his principles and he's popular with the pakistani intelligence here and elements of diaspora but has never been able to turn his starring role as captain of pakistan's only team to really win the international cricket championship into an effective political party that's obviously changed now what's happened in the last few months with julian what happened was that. the media. from hostile fire on words we suddenly had. the friesian of independent television jones. the most.

the most watched programs begin to fail programs so the today if you watch the television it's like having read jeremy bash one i don't give you you have. these these guys have become a billion moves like terry virts and you will have one on the mean one of all the journals and. where you would for instance have a big brother in england or some sort of rug here don't even want to watch don't interfere programs. such as the desire. to understand the political situation of people such as the interest that they are growing to him and there they have the highest viewership so what's happened in the past six months i mean there's really been a tremendous rise the opinion polls by bread have your popular support at something between sixty to eighty percent. of the pakistani population

perhaps you can describe this. how your party has grown in size and mentor and what's it like in you for you to try to manage this incredibly fast growing organization was full of what go to elections in two thousand and eight. because you know these elect the elections bug manipulated by the bush administration big group to deal between we share and businesses but all of the corruption cases work and not only the other politicians they were given an amnesty by a shark and this was the deal brokered by the americans and it was the end not all nationally can see this ordinance so in the name of reagan solution the americans got it shut up and been this huge together and got all these are a house in the latest book drive with due dates above that whole bush get we're about on the back when she got them together and some of. the suits sulfide

and along with a lot of the by just why go to the election. because we've for the supposedly boring. for a while wake up and go on because we stood up and actions and then as the governments began to mess up because once the criminals came to buy our corruption broke all records and biased nationally because when you have a lot of big government to close and such as the way it was doug remembering that i want everyone to know is what got in the election that this election as it does is going to be a disaster for the people of bias the one it's only meant for the bush administration to have one who. was sure it was struggling so he was like to go both they wanted another puppet government so they could pursue this war on terror without a lot of them was bombing on europe and still so whatever i was saying and went

through the roof the war on terror was has been devastated by this for a because for two thousand and one this time is a big deal in a war we have nothing to do we're up busy our own army killing on people and then get it then doing suicide attacks on the folks that is evidence and. the cost of seventy billion dollars of this war totally it has been less than twenty billion so all i was able of these things and secondly. it just resonated with people and almost two years ago my gut grass started going up as though says the bigger the bullet it will see those genes we are seeing not just as russia to me so people who are electable is realizing that the war although not belongs to me and i'm going to do and i heard that even even musharaff tried to say to you.

you you pm me president. well there you see bush or. does not understand what's happening in pakistan because he's outside is all over you know politics is on the face of he doesn't realize that on the ground based on the situation is is completely different number one can be the biggest liability to get allied to the dude and he's responsible for the mess he's responsible for this is a record corruption because he's the one who give them amnesty the good of the good of the new order in the world i've given has given amnesty and that are going to just elections again and then get into bomb on and secondly this war on terror so he's responsible if you look at say the soviet union which also had a lot of corruption but people said well that. well at least the black market is a market. so you're going to have some kind of trading it helps you get around

regulations which are impeding business. what is the problem with corruption in pakistan why is why is corruption bad for pakistan just to give you know the statistics then i and i am history of sixty years the total debt if you milledge it by bike stun is about five trillion in just four years the debt has gone up from problems by politically. so we had. to to service our debts so out of one point eight trillion. debt servicing is eight hundred billion harvard goes to debt service and six hundred billion goes to before the army had anything million people have two hundred billion to be used as a liberal so clearly the ganges on one so that in itself russia could

still go on and years of my son we are looking at the atlas we are looking at. us going down the drain the country is heading towards complete chaos we don't have money to don't run the country and at the moment you are shedding we don't have money to buy and you do. not buy our generation so because we get a lot of buy food for a barge initial of the government are there's almost fourteen hours notice that there's no electricity for fourteen hours a day. and the corruption in pakistan the tax evasion is one thing but the the stealing of money from the treasury how much of that ends are back in pakistan i just taking from the poor of the middle class and transferring it to the rich in pakistan versus how much of the money is taken out

of pakistan and stashed into london banks or stashed into swiss banks or u.s. companies. so two things number one because we do not have a minute before to get finest oil for our generation the country does have ignored shipping this electricity for fourteen to fifteen hours and it did eighteen hours in the rural areas. that would mean the farmers don't run there. the jubilee has to water their crops that means factories and industries are closing down there because there's a massive unemployment on top of the inflation so that's one aspect of corruption the second is it that it was sort of this money ends up and this was god's. dog wasn't the only political leader in the middest money are excited by the star and i have everything in by you stand in mine and apart from more particularly this

head of political bodies there have banned guns and brought their properties abroad and this is not declared so all of this money most of this money ends up outside the country but let's move on to the u.s. . tell me about this assassination of osama bin laden in pakistan what was the feeling in pakistan that the i.s.i. was hiding this i would get a lot of that there in confidence why. was a solid bin laden in pakistan and you know what you must understand is that some of bin laden was trained by the i.s.i. and cia. did warlow adam were trained by the cia and i.s.i. about twenty years back so this is this is these people were assets of by this time on. their woodridge by the bogus and i mean the i.s.i. financed by this yeah but they were fighting the soviets and for

a long time these groups had very close association with the most unsecured agencies no suddenly comes no new member and you do a lot of the leading degrees does i mean we showed us are unrelated used. but it didn't mean that all along the way people would have accepted this because here what people are trained for jihad our job and this is in this just means by doing the foreign occupation so obviously the can miss them having indoctrinating not only. these militant groups but also your own intensities that they're fighting a war and occupation is it is a religious duty play right some subset in the i.s.i. some people perhaps who are dealt with him in the past who are still loyal as goes people who would have thought of that why do you need another foreign occupation we just know the worst is also religious duty of course if it's possible as it is

there a feeling that the u.s. is helping our clean out militants in pakistan or is there a feeling that it's a violation of pakistani sovereignty and this was the under which you believe. it was a goatee which is a dome of most about thirty five thousand people dead fighting the never goes war. and as i said the country had lost far. in terms of when do you lost those then the aid given to us and the government was the figure to seventy billion dollars in order for it to begin so this war isn't going to the supposed to be second facing for the worse and they're not and i did not trust us and actually game and kill someone on our own soil it wasn't that the battle factors combined in the sacrifice and secondly it is an area that would be above your friend and so forget about what the government on i'm done with the people of the country who

didn't know what was going on because it. was the as it was being accused the only way to have kept them or europe all by the way because of this is either the involvement in goods but what about the people so good that there was a definitive in there was a very strong reaction born of feeling of humiliation answer to think that you know that the us argue that so and bin laden is a terrorist responsible for the deaths of many americans so they have a right to go in and take him out i'm saying is the. war on terror as large as some hard confusion as the to win the war on terror by bombs and. you know killing people actually want to has one when you win hearts and minds of people if you lose the war this is that there is the word this is going to end i mean by just one is already in place to do it that it was eight years back by this

time in this little corner as to it's a polarized society that it was here two years ago whatever we do military this is not the solution we have. for eight years the americans if even for eleven years but what are we going to do now which is different and as i understand said madness is doing this if you go over and over again and expecting a different result it's not going to happen and there's no military solution only weighs political solution by just the bottom the bottom ticket solution we do not have politicians look you will all get a bit of both so you need elections a good bit of government hope for the osce we'll start a political dialogue help the americans in an exit strategy from understand this is the one we are all those. we discovered a cable in two thousand and nine from the islamabad. embassy.

prime minister of. interior minister mal ak went into the embassy and offered to share an address that is the voting record system for voters in pakistan and a front company was set up in the united kingdom international identity services which was hired as the consultants in that drug to squirrel out the. all of pakistan its it seems to me that is a theft of some national treasure of pakistan the entire pakistani database registry office people. judy it's so shameful. you know never has a country's ruling elite for personal benefits never had betrayed the people

as much as this elite and it was shut up and the currently. not only have that done as they have been just some people who have disappeared by. on suspicion of terrorism they were biased on people from biased and sort of handed over to the americans on this mission of of. them being involved in some terrorist and people have disappeared. people that in the minute it suspects up and limited to troop drawdowns and not only suspect their wives the children it was a deliberate it never has it been any wording in what these people are innocent or not new country has ever been but it's one and out as we are being moments country as i said is the bullshit bit of my history never has a country that willingly betrayed its people saw the light at the start intruding

elite and subversive benefits because of all of their bank accounts across their money laying abroad and guess what the americans go on about gods they do believe on the sofa not from me how how would you reconfigure their pakistan relationship with the united states were going to be a complete severance what would you commit drone strikes what kind of intelligence cooperation what would you do in practice. and have a relationship based on the duties just a sec. so it should be a relationship like the u.s. as with india it should not be a relationship with moscow and lucia tippett and even worse they're focused on as a hired gun big beard to. kill americans and it is it's not it's a licious ship that is feed its load of wood to the people above his son nor has it

delivered to the americans the only thing that you that the americans should be doorless that look there will be blood there is a promise but you can only do that if you lower the perceived to be a student of the americans or you're going to be a problem get and then deal with terrorists or at the moment the terrorists or the militants have declared a jihad against bugs on government so they're giving us songs and on and on and up with these guys say that these are people out to something americans so the woman should get out of this war this job's the will of the juggalos we need then against our sifting through the end of me this is it within our borders and then all you get to get into that will be don't tell us and from us and so therefore the number one step has to be pulled out as a lot laurie we become a sovereign independent state and the relationship with the us should be of dignity and self-respect no longer the. last relationship you know your you give

a good description of how the war on terror in pakistan has been counterproductive it's created in the miti towards the pakistani government thirty five thousand to forty five thousand pakistanis have lost their lives why do you think the united states pursues. its agenda its during drone strikes in pakistan if if the us ambassador even is writing back saying that it's counterproductive what is the driving forces from the us. well julian i think it's because the the just like us the policy in us is being driven by a budget and it's the it's the army would produce blows because the lead military people always think of military solutions if you look at it here and you listen to i think it was a general magnum r r r i just remember a lot of dough i mean who was there also saying we're back and it's just that we've

done the corner we're about to win the war of fuel moment and a few more moments and this would be the director general is what i was thinking like that. one final question iran. have you met a.q. . and what do you think about the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb. i've made a clone of you know. there's not a recently but a couple of years back but i'm going to for twenty years because he'd give the first edition to when i started building the guns hospital he was the one going forward first. here's a hero his is. here washington by the sun because if i was in the news of the one it was someone give us security in other words. the same reason given by the

israelis that they needed the bomb because they're surrounded by a. hostile neighbors is ascendant by the sun before she was with india which is seven times the size of my guest on and there's a lot of insecurity in the country and this is a guy who's supposed to have secured us so from their point of view he's a hero worship and like. what i think of him i don't really nor was he in war and this is a proliferation of the ones of you why don't. you know by the americans and we share over the others including my mom said with your suit that logo ready to. give all i want to say that i never was a lot of those not i didn't really know of it but it on television that it was avoided but he said he was forced by oneself to do that so i don't really believe the truth behind it julian buzz only i managed to do here i don't know diddly. for the world of it which has gotten you into

a nuclear bombs. but at the moment there's the where the situation is. people will live on the air this ever since we've had acquired nuclear weapons even though there's been a lot of attention we've come across but there has been no war would be focused on india and before the nuclear weapon there were three wars so the people will argue from their point of view ok. thank you very much to i wish you all the best because i think you. i don't agree. with. is the. music. by people with. this is. and as i said i'm the biggest it's going to be these deals with him just. like we would never amount to john's. so do you think thank you good luck.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something

else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture. me it is easy easy easy easy easy easy easy easy. easy to. see.