and that's going to do it for now for more on the stories we covered you can check out our you tube page you tube dot com slash artsy america for now i'm liz wall have a great night. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture. i'm truly in a song that's just saying. it is true of wiki leaks web expose the world secrets these documents belong the united states government being attacked by the powerful united states strongly condemn it said quote after quote people all illegally shoot

five hundred days now i've been detained without charge but that hasn't stopped us . today we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas that can change the world tomorrow. from humble origins my next guest in run come became a household name as captain of pakistan's victorious cricket team he then left sports and launched his movement for justice party in the most dangerous political environment on a. year's chems anti corruption party was ignored in two thousand and seven us state department cables referred to him as pakistan's one man party. but pakistan is changing fast over the last two years widespread anger over u.s. drone strikes and corrupt political dynasties has proven millions to his cause i want to know why is he now front runner to be the next leader of pakistan. to you.

i'm all right i have a bit of a cold but i think that's a good thing because my voice is a bit sexier than normal and i have to go basically. and i do want to get them interesting tones it would do everybody just to well i think your interesting time is a bit more interesting than my interesting time i saw these videos of your rallies last night so i think this is great but i worry you're going to get blowed up. so i hope your interesting time doesn't get any more into this didn't you go to go sometime yeah the seven of those are some of them just. like i mean i was you know when i saw this guy's hospital so nice to see you but it got me going in six months later they were gone so i have a completely different attitude to life and you know around for long so you might as well make the most of it. you don't realize the impact to. the wiki leaks

mid not just. let me let me pause you a rare broken up for some reason where we're just lost you for a minute ok you're you're back again. back the middle of the world but by the sun the with the exposed all of these two faces one additions you know who was sucking up to the american in the same. and brave and telling them how great they were. you know sucking up to them and public giving completely opposite state it was a writ specially this one religious is this guy. who is declaring leads this religious logic and he literally doing the americans he said look if you badly need to become the prime minister i would never want to do. and he's considered the most candid american politician so he was it was a. it really exposed

a lot of people who. know him around can you describe what what are the big power factions in pakistan is the i.s.i. the army is the supreme court the old families how would you describe the basic power structure of pakistan. well the babylon five just sign just like in the middle east is a buffer state just full and trans-jordan status for what you call the boss structure benefitted from the system and the majority of the population want to change it so what you see in the middle east is exact numbers but as the west looks upon muslim societies at this time war going on within fundamentalist and liberals islam and fundamentalists their brothers actually and this is really the divided up in the muslim world which is why everyone looks surprised by the arab spring and by is the one with the following i have been are is the same them are the same people who are going to go to the middle east people want to get james and decided to

squabble now what does this do just one focused on we have political mafia else all of the political parties have not got together against being so they have sort of the this is a desert this is a good some of them got this is a good sign is that iran that if people are gathering around to oppose you very very must be scared. oh maybe five because the last time by the sun we saw red is as big as the doing to god one and. a lot and one was forty years ago was a girl you would do the father don't be uneasy and when that these sort of the numbers don't know you swept the election he just went and he was an underdog and the stooges bodies along the way so that's why difficult skin we researched the wiki leaks cables from islamabad to see what they said about you and in two thousand and seven the us ambassador said. whose p.t.i.

party is effectively a one man show has little to lose his credibility rests in his so created role as a politician he sticks to his principles and he's popular with the pakistani intelligence here and elements of diaspora but has never been able to turn his starring role as captain of pakistan's only team to really win the international cricket championship into an effective political party that's obviously changed now what's happened in the last few months with julian what was the. media. from the times of the fight on words we suddenly had. the friesian of independent television jones. the most. the most watched programs begin to fail programs so today if you watch the

television it's like having read jeremy bags one don't give you you have. these these guys have become a billion moves like terry virts and you will have one on the mean one of all the journals and. where you would for instance have a big brother in england or some sort of grew up here don't even want to watch don't interfere programs. such as the desire. to understand the political situation of people's such as the interest that the diamond did they have the highest viewership it's what's happened in the past six months i mean there's really been a tremendous rise the opinion polls that i've read have your popular support at something between sixty to eighty percent. of the pakistani population perhaps you can describe this. how your party has grown in size and momentum

and what's it like in europe for you trying to manage this incredibly fast growing organization was full of what go to elections in two thousand and eight. because you know these and the elections bug manipulated by the bush administration big group to deal between we share and businesses but all of the corruption cases work and not only the bottom distance they were given an amnesty by a shark and this was the deal brokered by the americans and it was the end not all nationally can see this ordinance so in the middle of reading solution the americans got it was sheriff and been sued together and got all these are a case in the latest book drive with due dates above that whole bushkill were about on the back when she got them together and some of. the suits so i

and along with a lot of the buy just go to the election. because we've for the supposedly boring. for a while wake up and go on because we stood up and actions and then as the governments began to mess up because once the guerrillas came by our corruption broke all records and biased nationally because when you have a lot of crime big crime multiplies and such as the way it was doug remembering that i want everyone to know is what got in the election that this election is a disease it's going to be a disaster for the people of bias the one it's only meant for the bush administration to have one who. was sure it was struggling so you would like to go both they wanted another puppet government so they could pursue this war on terror without a lot of arm was blowing on him and saw that. whatever i was saying and went to the roof the war on terror was has been devastated by this for

a because for two thousand and one this time is a big get in a war we have nothing to do we're up busy our own army killing on people and then get it then doing suicide attacks on the folks that is evidence and. the cost of seventy billion dollars of this war totally it has been less than twenty billion so all i was able of these things and suddenly. it just resonated with people and almost two years ago my gut grass started going up as though says the bigger the who wanted to go see those genes. we are seeing not politicians rushing to me so people who are electable is realizing that the war although not belongs to me and i'm going to do and i heard it even even musharaff tried to say to you. you you pm me president. well there

you see bush or. does not understand what's happening in pakistan because he's outside is all over you know politics is on the face of he doesn't realize that on the ground and by just on the situation is is completely different number one can be the biggest liability to get a load but number two he's responsible for the mess he's responsible for this is a record corruption because he's the one who give them amnesty the good of the good of the new order in the world goodness given amnesty and that are going to just elections again and then get into bomb on and secondly this war on terror so he's responsible if you look at say the soviet union which also had a lot of corruption for people said well that. well at least the black market is a market. so you're going to have some kind of trading it helps you get around regulations which are impeding business. what is the problem with corruption in

pakistan why is why is corruption bad for pakistan just to give you know the statistics then i and i am history of sixty years the total debt if you milledge it by bikes don is about five trillion in just four years the debt has gone up from a problem by one of three. so we had. already . due to service our debts so if not of one point eight trillion. debt servicing is eight hundred billion harvard goes to debt service and six hundred billion goes to before the army how do they need to million people have two hundred billion to be used as a livable so clearly the ganges and why and so on and itself russia they could still go on in tears and my son we're looking at the atlas we're

looking at. us going down the drain the country is heading towards complete chaos we don't have money to don't run the country and at the moment load shedding we don't have money to buy and you do. not buy our generation so because we get a lot of buy food for a pardon or slow the government are there's almost fourteen hours notice you did there's no electricity for fourteen hours a day. and and the corruption in pakistan the tax evasion is one thing but the the stealing of money from the treasury how much of that ends are back in pakistan i just taking from the poor of the middle class and transferring it to the rich in pakistan versus how much of the money is taken out of pakistan and stashed into london banks or stashed into swiss banks or u.s.

companies. so do things number one because we do not have money to bear for to get finest oil for our generation the country is having lordship in this electricity for fourteen to fifteen hours and indeed eighteen hours in the rural areas. that would mean the farmers don't run there. the jubal has to water their crops that means factories and industries are closing down there because there's a massive unemployment only of inflation so that's one aspect of corruption the second is that it was sort of this money ends up and this was a chance of the dog was gone and the people who politically don't the weirdest money are excited by this don and i have everything in by you stand in mine and apart from more particularly this head of political bodies there have banned guns and brought their properties abroad and this is not declared so of this money most

of this money and that the country let's move on to the u.s. . tell me about this assassination of osama bin laden in pakistan what was the feeling in pakistan to the i.s.i. it was hiding this hour bin lot of that there in confidence why. was a solid bin laden in pakistan and you know what you must understand is that some of them not them was trained by the i.s.i. and cia. did lot of adam were trained by the cia and i.s.i. about twenty years back so this is this is these people were assets of the by this time are. they would really by the bogus and i mean the i.s.i. financed by the cia or but they were fighting the soviets and for a long time these groups had very close association with the most unsecured

agencies now suddenly comes no new level and you do under the leading degrees does i mean we shadowed us eight hundred eighty degrees to. but it didn't mean that all along the way people would have accepted this because here what people are trained for jihad our job and this is in this just means fighting the foreign occupation so how are you going to convince them having indoctrinating not only. these militant groups but also your own intensities that they're fighting for an occupation is it is a religious duty play right some subset in the i.s.i. some people perhaps who are dealt with him in the past who are still loyal as goes people who would have thought that if i do another foreign occupation which is now the worst is also as it is today of course if it's possible as it is there a feeling that the u.s. is helping our clean out militants in pakistan or is there a feeling that it's

a violation of pakistani sovereignty and this was the ultimate humiliation. it was a goatee which was a bad omen to most about thirty five thousand people dead fighting america's. and as i said the country had lost far. in terms of what do you lost those then the aid given to us and the government was the figure to seventy billion dollars is going to be debated so this war isn't going to the supposed to be second posing for the worse and they're not and i did not trust us and actually game and kill someone on our own soil it wasn't that at all factors combined in the sacrifice and secondly it is an area that would be about going for it and. forget about what the government tomorrow i'm done with the people of the country who didn't know what was going on because it. was the as it was being used the only way

to get them or europe all by the way because of this is either the involvement or in cahoots but what about the people so good that there was a definitive in there was a very strong reaction borne out of feeling of humiliation and do think that you know that the us argued that so and bin laden is a terrorist responsible for the deaths of many americans so they have a right to go in and take him out i'm saying is that the. war on terror is the lord. of the confusion as they do when the war on terror by bombs and. you know killing people actually war on terror is one when you win hearts and minds of people if you lose the war this is that that is the word this is going to end i mean by this time as well radicalized did that it was eight years back by this time and this one or is it it's

a polarized society that it was here two years ago whatever we do military this is not a solution we have. for eight years the americans and feel for eleven years but what are we going to do now which is different and as i understand said madness is doing this if you go over and over again and expecting a different result it's not going to happen there's no military solution only with political solution by just the bottom the bottom to the solution we do not have politicians workable or good whatever so you need elections a credible government a hope for the osce we'll start a political dialogue help the americans in an exit strategy from understand this is the one we are all those. we discovered a cable in two thousand and nine from the islamabad embassy. prime minister of. interior minister mal ak went into the embassy

and. offered to share now that is the voting record system for voters in pakistan and a front company was set up in the united kingdom of international identity services which was hired as the consultant on that drug to squirrel out. the. all of pakistan its it seems to me that is a theft of some national treasure of pakistan the entire pakistani database registry office people. judy it's so shameful. you know never has a country's ruling elite for personal benefits never had to betray to people as much as this elite and it was sure of and they got it lead not only have they

done as they have been just number of people who have disappeared by just. on suspicion of terrorism they were biased i mean these people from by just any sort of handle would do the americans on this mission of of. them being involved in some terrorist and people have disappeared. people that get it when it suspects up a limited to troop drawdowns and not of the suspect their wives the children the neighbors and an agent never has there been any wording in one of these people innocent or not new country has ever been born and as we are being one of those country as i said is the bullshit bit of my history never has a country that willingly betrayed its people saw the light at the start intruding elite and for personal benefits because a lot of them about comes across their money laying abroad and guess what the

americans go on about guns they do believe on the sofa not from me how how would you reconfigure the pakistan relationship with the united states we're going to be a complete severance what would you commit drone strikes what kind of intelligence cooperation what would you do in practice. have a relationship based on the dignity self-respect. so it should be a relationship like the u.s. as with india it should not be a relationship with moscow and lucia tippett and even worse there bystanders are higher than big beer to. kill americans and it is it's not it's of relationship that is feed it's loaded over to the people above his son nor is it delivered to the americans the only thing that you that the americans should be dollars that

look there will be good there is a promise but you can only do that if you loan the perceive to be a student of the americans or you going to be a problem get and then deal with terrorists or at the moment the generous or the militants have declared jihad against bugs on government so they're giving us songs and on and on and up with these guys say that this is a pull out and do something americans so the woman should get out of this war this job's the will of the jock those we need then against are sifting through the rear end to me this is it within our borders and then only can we get into that it will be don't desert from us and so therefore number one step has to be pulled out as a lot more worried we become a sovereign independent state and the relationship with the us should be of dignity and self-respect no longer the. last relationship you know your you give a good description of how the war on terror in pakistan has been counterproductive

it's created in the miti towards the pakistani government thirty five thousand to forty five thousand pakistanis have lost their lives why do you think the united states pursues. its agenda its during drone strikes in pakistan if if the us ambassador even is writing back saying that it's counterproductive what is the driving forces from the us. well julian i think it's because the the public just like us the policy in us is being driven by a big dick and it's the this is the army would produce blows because the lead military people always think of military solutions if you look at it here and you listen throughout the room wasn't general magnum r r r i just remember a lot of dough and him well they're all saying we're back in it sixty's that we've done the corner we're about to win the war a few moments

a few more moments and this would do the trick so generals always think like that. one final question in iran. have you met a.q. . and what do you think about the father of the pakistani nuclear bomb. i've made a. clone of you know. there's a lot of pieces in but a couple of years back but i'm going to the twenty years because he'd give the first edition to when i started building the guns hospital he was the one going forward first. here's a hero his is. here washington by the sun because if i was in the news of the one it was someone there was security in other words of the same reason given by the israelis that they needed the bomb goes their cell phone or blow. hostile neighbors

is ascendant by the sun before she was with india which is seven times size by just on and there's a lot of the security in the country and this is a guy who's supposed to have secured us so from their point of view he's a hero worship and biased on what i think of him i don't really nor was he in war and this is a proliferation not one of the ones of you why don't. you know by the americans and we share over the others into my room said with the logo ready to. give all i want is that i never was a lot of those not i didn't really know of it but it on television that it was avoided but he said he was forced by oneself to do that so i do really believe the truth behind it julian buzz only i am and you hear i don't know diddly. for the world of it which has gotten you know a nuclear bombs. but at the moment there's the where the situation is. people will

i don't hear this ever since we've had acquired nuclear weapons even though there's been a lot of attention we've come across but there has been no war would be focused on india and before the nuclear weapon there were three wars so the people will argue from that point of view ok. thank you very much to i wish you all the best because i think you. i don't agree what you did with weekly freedom of information system was toward the thing because we always did get controlled by people with information and this is a video of war and as i said i'm the biggest menace issue this is going to be these last years would have just been during the mission and we would never and i would just sort of coming to the bar i was so there you think a little bit thank you there and good luck. to cut cut. cut. cut

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me it is easy to. see.