this is. the moment it's crossed the headlines on the syrian defense minister killed in a suicide attack in damascus this according to state t.v. reports that's fresh violence flares up in the war torn country. and with the olympics private security firm proving incompetent u.s. agents are now being flown into british. thousands of troops. to terrorist cash. money laundering saudi arabian groups financed terror. also accused of handling drug cartel cash. media coverage of the conflict in syria and where the mainstream broadcasters are rallying support for regime change crosstalk.

and you can. start. with. a low and welcome to crossfire i'm curious about covering syria are we witnessing a new generation of warfare and information war there appears no doubt western media aims to construct a consensus to provide overwhelming public support for regime change in damascus and is the truth the place casualty of this conflict. can. start. to cross talk syria and the ongoing

information war i'm joined by it tomorrow rabinovich in tel aviv he's a distinguished senior fellow at the brookings institution and a former israeli ambassador to the u.s. interests we have a child leah he is a professor and dean at jindo school of international affairs and in san jose we cross the stephen zoom as he's a professor of politics and international studies at the university of san francisco all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect stephen if i can go to you first as a western narrative of this conflict in syria based on distortions manipulations lives in videotape. the overall narrative i think is pretty accurate but of course the spin always tends to lean towards western perceptions maybe it's not that there aren't severe human rights abuses by the syrian regime there certainly are but when you contrast to the coverage of say bahrain. or allied regimes that are being challenged by popular movements you can

really tell different similarly while the the bulk of the struggle against assad has been nonviolent there are also extremist elements involved including including terrorist groups this angle has been downplayed somewhat so so so the short answer is yes there are certain certainly some exaggerations going on that are served to. national political opinion but they you know they these are real these are real ok we go to tel aviv mr ambassador what do you think of western media coverage one sided biased you know pretty much what we just. see as you said the reason the information warfare it is part of this conflict is it is of almost every conflict in today's world both the regime and the opposition trying to shape the narrative according to the interests there is

a great deal of support. for the rebellion oh it's a great deal of these gusts but they clearly in the western media with the brutal suppression. began actually is a mostly. quiet. demonstration against the regime. but on the whole of these correct but with a few distortions if i could stay with you mr ambassador so there are the rebels are the good guys they wear white hats right. no question what do you mean by rebels because as has been said before there are according to some estimates about a thousand g. how these are penetrated syria who perpetrate acts of terror and nobody certainly nothing my country has a great deal of sympathy for for the jihad these so we don't say that universally

all the rebels are and where white heads are good guys but if you ask most experts at this point in time there are genes to live a legitimate easy. or use the tide of history on the side of the rebels or the opposition the answer would be the larger ok fingo to turn around what do you think of the coverage of the media coverage of this conflict it is a civil war after all. well the i.c.r.c. is now calling it a civil war and that's a welcome change because until then the media was painting the so-called free syrian army as a bunch of ragtag guerrillas with no training and with very light weapons and with and that they are outnumbered and that basically this is a war of the state against its own people the fact is on the ground the i.c.r.c. itself now says a civil war which acknowledges basically that the opposition is heavily armed it has the capacity to inflict damage on the on the government forces and that most

obviously defectors a bunch of defectors with no training cannot be so heavily armed and organized it means there's external support that part is totally been covered up in the western media projection of this war it's been shown as some kind of indigenous movement of freedom fighters against the us of dynasty when the fact remains that you know there is significant external support and we need to really uncover that and that's why we need alternative media the other way is it will be a battle of perceptions that will be lost by those who need a peaceful transfer of power in cedar rather than this kind of regime change that is engineered through in a form of a silent cool with the connivance of the western media is even if we hear enough about the opposition and what they're doing. now and are nearly in there certainly the support of saudi arabia qatar others of the of the rebels. that has not gotten the kind of play that it should ok explain explain to my

viewers why that's the case do you think. well i mean obviously i mean this is been the history of we've seen for many many years that for example in the popular revolutions in central america. the business on the u.s. was there the cuban support the soviets a poor which is grossly exaggerated trying to downplay the indigenous roots of the populist progress or some given soviet support but that was the main thrust of the revolution and when it comes to syria of course the narrative is just reverse they totally downplay or fail to even mention the external support stressing indigenous troops now personally i disagree with the iranian colleague and i believe that the syrian revolution is primarily indigenous but and has popular support but that does not mean there is not also

a foreign element in there and some of these foreign elements frankly rather sketchy in terms of their ideology and tactics mr massey when you think about that sketchy it's a good word for some of them yeah well just small correction right now and i'm going to make but anyway i was talking more about the free syrian army not so much about the civilian population which may have grievances against the us a dynasty for forty years i'm talking about letters analyze the rulz the funding the etymology for lack of better word of this free syrian army when has it come about it was being described as nothing and now they're saying they're about to take power and they're already in damascus so how did this transformation happen such a short time and would the forces that are behind this behind them bastards of you on this because he's an israeli ok mr mansour you want to jump in there. yeah i have a view not just because i mean. i would say the following it's. about the

opposition of the opposition is divided it is politically weak normally when i speak to and to another insofar as the events in syria i try something on the audience and i say can you mention two or three names of opposition leaders and the reason embarrassing silence they have not been able to portray themselves as a viable alternative to the regime the second point is that. i fully agree with professor sunni's the reason indigenous a genuine revolution at this point against the regime but i think he's also at the same time in irene a regional conflict between iran and iran's rivals an enemy in the region iran tries to shore of the regime enemies and rivals like saudi arabia qatar and others are arming the opposition and of course in a country like syria when you will become the reno regional war an international conflict the population paid the price but mr ambassador if i can stay with you i

mean is this a proxy war here but it's not described that way and in western mainstream media it's all about democracy and human rights isn't it but you said something very different. depending on which media you read and i try to read every piece that is written about syria i also contribute to western media and i've seen quite a few references to these proxy wars so. there's always an element of starry eyed people who. take a romantic view or russian but i think the reason sufficient those of realistic reading of what the geopolitics of these. chamfer got back to you in town what do you think about that. well i think i'm biased is spot on i think civil war is also a misleading term because it you know the term internal war and civil war have been often use even during the cold war some of the worst most barbaric proxy wars

financed by eastern west in africa and parts of asia and latin america were called civil wars the point is that the regime as well as opulent as as we know have some sectarian divisions but this is being heightened by usage of such terms we need to highlight the international war economy that is behind this whole syrian game rather than simply calling it a domestic uprising it was a domestic uprising but domestic uprisings can get hijacked and that's what we need to highlight other ways the narrative will go towards another security council resolution followed by possible nato intervention we've been trying to avoid this for a while and russia has some are holding the fort but i'm afraid that the propaganda war is not so advanced that they're making it look like you know twenty thousand or twenty five thousand there you know all kinds of figures coming from london and who knows who's behind all these things ok stranger things even go back to you it looks like a strategy of massacre marketing ok anything anyone that's killed in syria it's the

fault of the regime and then we people tend to forget and i'm not defending a son but every regime will defend itself it will even use force. well certainly and then in some of the some of the massacres we later came out were not completely unprovoked there were fighting at the scene which is not to say there weren't were crimes committed by the regime i think there's quite a bit of an evidence the six six suggest that but it was within the context of fighting and this is why well i don't make a moral judgment against oppressed people who feel the need to take up arms i think that the going towards an arms struggle is a major mistake by the syrian opposition in the first six months or so it was an overwhelmingly nonviolent movement a popular movement the regime call them terrorists was back then there wasn't much in the way of terrorism this is a popular nonviolent democratic movement there are similar to what we saw in tunisia in egypt and yemen bahrain elsewhere. unfortunately you start

again these defections from the syrian army people brought their guns with them joined with arms civilians joined with foreign supporters and outsiders and it is turned in to a. more of a civil war with outside powers trying to to manipulate it and i think you know. the best hope for cereal is that only hold that was given it's all down to get away short break we'll go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syrian state.

with. technology innovation all the developments from around russia we've got the future. secret laboratory. was able to build the world's most sophisticated. mission to teach me. this is why you should care only. welcome back to prosecute you were talking about media coverage of the syrian crisis.

ok stephen i'd go back to you in san jose you want to finish a point before we went to the break. if you look at uprisings that have successfully overthrown dictatorships in the past several decades you'll find that the largely nonviolent movements have a much stronger indigenous base they are more likely to lead to a genuinely democratic transition and less people get killed when the opposition takes up arms however with a kind of martial values in vanguard mentality strict military hierarchy more authoritarian elements tend to dominate because they become dependent on foreign arms foreign governments come in and start influencing the movement and after and after the character was overthrown more often than not you end up with another dictatorship sometimes with ongoing factional fighting and very often with

over bearing influence by a foreign power that supported the armed struggle so again while not making moral judgments against people who feel that say feel need to take up arms against a repressive regime i think is a big mistake because it makes things a lot more messy a lot more complicated mr ambassador in you think the media under places sectarian differences in this conflict and i'm kind of going back to saudi arabia and qatar to go ahead. no nother no this point i think the media is full of unfortunately correct description of the of the core of this conflict is a conflict between regime that is essentially a low i don't mean ated by members of the community. and the sunni and the sunni majority but i'd like to go back to an earlier point if i may now i think issue with. stephen because in the first six months when the.

action or the demonstrations were quiet we had daily. events of police. should be high live and shooting into the demonstrators killing one hundred one hundred fifty a day that of course was. i was at the same time to demonstrate demonstrators you know nonviolent they were saying this was nonviolent of course it was very private about how long how long how long how long can you have a nonviolent opposition when the regime is using violence in egypt the decisive element going to measure the says it i meant was that the army decided not to shoot at the civilians and the dictator had to go in syria this is not me in the case and he says that i mean the nature of of war there is no almost a year and a half old this is. a long ongoing conflict ok if i got it to around what about the secretary number nine are under even got old and in egypt.

you're not in the eighteen days egyptian uprising over nine hundred people were massacred by the police and military in egypt so they got out there largely nonviolent focused we've. we've seen and in many other tale. well i would also disagree with them in the shower on a shark and there are millions of people and i and thirty nine ok let's go to toronto go ahead. and the audience of people i mean if you look at my own mar forty two years of brutal military rule and now you have evolutionary transformation towards a possible democratic future and the people have not taken up arms the burman majority so it's not necessary that you know violence is the answer and i would rather side with stephen on this point to say that you know mark mcgann the us once said and eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and i'm afraid that syria is too much and this could have been avoided it could have been slower the

transmission could have been slower and you know people struggle for decades to get the desired outcome what is the hurry who are the regional powers who want to quit . why are the pushing for it so fast and for a quick change this needs to be investigated what is the strategic game behind this whole so-called syrian uprising ok mr ambassador let's talk about the other proxies here what is the rounds role in this and that's maybe gets to the answer the question asked in turan. iran in iran supports the regime with primarily with money and weapons not so much diplomatically because iran doesn't have too much diplomatic leverage and so if you ask yourself how does the syrian regime over the syrian economy hold up. after so many months of violent disruption of the normal life part of the answer is you were in iranian supposed to have also been reports of participation of elements

from his below which is you runs along i mean eleven on in together with the shah behind the. suppression of in the sunni sunni opposition and unfortunately looks more and more like an extension of a sunni shia conflict in. the region well that's what i mean i was actually i was trying to get out earlier in the program no i'd even first i had i don't think that quite that i don't think it's quite that simple i mean i think there certainly are distant elements within minority communities including the the christians alawite so do oppose the regime crony capitalist class which has really been the backbone of the assad regime and then respects is largely sunni we see the overwhelmingly shape opposition in bahrain fighting the u.s. backed sunni dictatorship there they have gone on record in solidarity with the

syrian opposition against assad i mean i think there is i mean i'm not denying certainly that you know they are sectarian elements within within the conflict and other conflicts but i think it's important not to overplay the sectarian division similarly obviously iran has interests in keeping the syrian regime in power that is their only real arab. ally and has been so for some time at the same time i don't want to. also has a tendency to exaggerate iran's role to some to some degree as well i mean what's going to happen i think ultimately is going to be settled by the syrian people and by and by the syrian government the my fear though is that the longer the bloodshed continues the longer the violence and both sides the more it's going to ossify the sectarian divisions and it could end up being self fulfilling ok even though back

to tehran one of the things western media doesn't like to admit is that assad does have some popularity with some groups but it's not mention too often. yeah into that's the binary you see when you want to create a black and white situation when most of these kinds of conflicts have grey areas that's when you need wineries and clear opposites you need a villain and you need a heroic uprising of the entire population that's been the legend of democratization in western popular myth but remember even samuel huntington who wrote about the waves of democracy marketisation talked about how you know most democratic changes happen through peaceful negotiation and transfer of power rather than through muscle presence so this kind of you know period of the masses you know running over the gates and or throwing the dictator out i think that's the kind of image they want to create because then you know you can justify foreign intervention saying that the masses need help and the point is that the masses in

many parts of the world when we fought for serbia domination in our ports or in india we didn't get foreign help we didn't have external military assistance to through the british show so this is the kind of situation. where the liberation of sardar is entwined with new imperial objectives and unless we separate the two i'm afraid that the middle east is heading from arab spring into a long spell of war regional warfare with sectarian elements as well as with this kind of vicious foreign intervention that is culture as humanitarianism and and sympathy for the human rights of the people of syria humanitarian imperialism we are living in that era and i'm expecting that it will it is on the downswing now because of the cuts to the u.s. military budget in the european union. own economic problems but still that game is being played out humanitarianism and the whole call for saving and somehow supporting the people of syria from outside and that is what i'm really afraid

we're heading into we're the liberators are going to be foreigners once more mr ambassador that's a very good point is the west you know is that i'm talking about perceptions here they're the good guys in the liberators of the oppressed syrian people that's what it looks like is it that black and white. no actually west of the western position is much more ambiguous than is often described you know they're getting aid we're getting aid from the west in the ally i have in the region that's very clear yeah yeah but at the same time if you look at. it work that the united states western europe could have done by way of pressuring the regime you find out that they could have done more and they don't do everything they have in the political diplomatic economic arsenal to push the regime. they know where you hide behind russian opposition to sanctions in the security

council and my my theses that since the opposition has not been able to portray a clear vision of what syria would look like after the toppling or the fall of bashar al assad and there is fear of the break breakdown of the syrian state spillover effect into neighboring countries there were some countries are not pushing as hard as they could award given this complexity ok stephen i would it looks like that's already happening to syria go ahead. you know i mean it's interesting that a lot of people forget that way serious cooperated with the west at times and suppressing the palestinians the lebanese national movement during the early phases of the lebanese civil war in the one nine hundred seventy s. the syria was backed by the united states in the coup against. at the end of one nine hundred ninety series been a destination for the so-called extraordinary rendition program where

a terrorist suspects were sent to syria to be tortured including and innocent canadian man who have now had the same name as a suspect to use he was grabbed at the john f. kennedy airport in new york and sent to syria for nine months of a brutal torture. and so you know serious sometimes been willing to cooperate with the west in certain areas and there's concern about some of the salafi elements in the opposition and there and so there is indeed some ambivalence about what's going to happen what's going to happen later the problem with syria and i think it what makes it makes it more difficult situation is unlike the tunisian libya egypt cetera where you had essentially one man rule. syria is much the way i'm sorry i'm going to have to jump in here gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks and i get to tell the truth and and in san jose and thanks to our viewers for watching us here see you next time and remember last time.

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