hello again this is all see the headline. syrian troops drive the rebels out of that capital some of the fighting moves to aleppo the country's largest city and the keystone hole the president has signed. also fears of state's new paying twitter signs that hold the nearly twelve hundred government requests for hughes a day to those in the first top of the chair eighty percent came from the to us government. the recent times transparency report reveals a giant gap in the global economy as the world's ultra rich trying to get over twenty one trillion dollars in offshore but. those are the headlines up next he's pieces of our with his debate try to crosstalk. please.

continue. to. follow and welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle occupation what occupation the recently published report by an israeli judge concluded that israel is not in fact occupying palestinian territories has engendered a wide array of emotions and outrage after forty five years what should we call the situation in the west bank. and. started. to cross thought the occupation are non occupation of

palestinian lands i'm joined by michael merman in tel aviv he is a writer for the jerusalem post in jerusalem we have it tomorrow marcos he's the founder and director of palestinian media watch and in san diego we cross to susan how why she is the author of the international bestseller mornings and janine all right crosstalk rules in effect folks that means you can jump in anytime you want susan can i ask you because you got up early as for this program what is your reaction to this finding by this judge that the there is no occupation of the over the west bank but. i mean that's that's that contradicts decades of international law and a multitude of u.n. resolutions and policies by. by by by the international community end all tenets of international law the most basic of which is that acquisition of territory by conquest and forces inadmissible it's knowledge void.

you know it's outrageous it's it's another it's a step towards israel's consolidating of the whole of palestine which has been the zionist plan all along and through tomorrow in jerusalem what do you think about the report. well first of all there is a lot of factual errors unfortunately what susan just said. what what this report has said is that international law recognizes that this is not an occupation meaning that's land was originally occupied illegally by jordan this is not palestinian under any sort of kind of palestinian state so therefore this land was not taken from jordan or taken from the state this was taken from jordan that illegally occupied it and jordan has given up its claim to it israel took it in a defensive war united nations to four to recognize that israel that was it was not

a defensive or a liar and let me just innocently sixty seven who are with started that you know you say you've made it you just you need a huge error but you ain't nobody jordan in the world are not acting is really tiny u.r.l. it was not it that's not true nineteenth the one nine hundred sixty seven is right the way the israeli sixty seven language or it's really not that was started by israel when they attacked egypt but you can't you can't change history that's right that will start there is no you're right let me jump in here ok i want to have another person on the panel my call to let me what do you think what do you think of the report in the middle east michael i would interrupt in the middle of the world where i want to hear all of our gas at first ok and then we can continue to continue this way michael what do you think i mean i didn't even finish first of all and i didn't even finish and i was interrupted michael has managed a chance to speak go ahead michael. first of all i would point out that the report hasn't been adopted by any government or record body and so it's likely to be

buried by the prime minister and he knows that it's going to have bad political repercussions for him and he probably will not want to touch it. secondly the biggest problem of the report is that it doesn't address the palestinian people it simply talks about the land the occupation was recognized. as such by the israeli supreme court in multiple occasions both under the geneva and hague conventions and they've been creative in how they apply it but the concept of an occupation i mean the fact is that there's military rule over the palestinian people in the west bank . ok tomorrow what do you think about that. ok let me just finish what i was saying before the israel in the west bank according to a un resolution two forty two and according to the us court which recognize that israel had a right to be there until there would be a final settlement and that's the most important thing israel is following all the united nations agreement and the other that's all that this that this ruling this

document is saying i agree completely with that says the document is a technical document dealing with legality it is not dealing with the most intimate relations and what about that i was skinny and i know the way to try if i could i don't know if you would about the people. absolutely the issue of the palestinians there has to be some kind of a solution and israel has been hoping for years for a palestinian population that is willing to live with us together in peace and i would say tragically every opportunity to negotiate every opportunity to work toward some kind of a peaceful settlement has been rejected by the palestinians starting with the intifada that was started by yasser arafat which left thousands decile do you know that i'm going to side settlement israel just wants to work this out in peaceful ways that's right the settlements are accepted in the us little accords is something that must be resolved in the final stand by for not as negotiators i'd really like to jump in there. ok explain susan jump in peter i mean there is this

was you know this is this is a this is israel's perpetual claim that you know all they wanted to do was live in peace they want to have peace for neighbors but if you actually look at the map and if you actually look at the numbers and what's actually happening behind their words palestine and palestinians are quite literally being wiped off the map i mean if you look at a succession of maps and i'm sure you've seen these before you know we have gone from from palestine where you know six percent jewish land ownership to palestinians sort of being squeezed into these can tons and ghettos that are that exist on less than less than ten percent of our historic homeland and in all of these are are these are these are ghettos that are surrounded by walls and fences and checkpoints palestinians live quite i'm a miserable and oppressed life under military occupation and are subject to

military protocols and arbitrary detentions etc you know i was so so to say that all israel wants to do is live in peace is just that's completely disingenuous and it flies in the face of of every reality. that's existing on on the ground so i wish it m.r. would just be would just be straightforward and honest israel stated aim and what they have always said they wanted is to have that you know the land from the mediterranean to the jordan river you know have that be jewish and if they have to put up with a small non jewish minority well they'll have to do that and they're going to make sure that there's no demographic threat from that minority by whatever measures that they need to take and these measures you know we've already gotten a glimpse of them over the past six decades including expulsions assassinations detentions you know it's i mean just just be honest just yes there are and don't

don't say you want to live with us as peaceful neighbors that's not a hero during my call i want to go to you i mean if there is no occupation here and the palestinians should be given citizenship that's logical well that's one of the one state solution a one state solution a little cynically looking at the letter for four. things taking that you can be taken from the live report but if there is no occupation and you don't mention the palestinians then what do you what do you do with them if there's not going to be a palestinian state than. palestinians will have to be given all the civil and human rights that israelis enjoy. so that's definitely one problem with the lever of course if you're coming from a two state stance it tomorrow looks like a one state solution with this report peter if i may maybe. susan just said go right ahead he's going right ahead yeah. susan said that there were six decades of suffering and i just didn't tell you something very significant. israel died as i said the west bank and in defense of war jordan as we know attacked israel from

jerusalem without any provocation israel had a right to attack in egypt because they blocked them they did a blockade but beyond that in the years from one thousand nine hundred eighty seven to one thousand nine hundred three when israel was ruling the west bank of israel was. administering the west bank what was the relationship between palestinians so first of all there was hardly a checkpoint the two economies milled everything in palestinian society was growing in the one nine hundred seventy s. the fourth group fastest growing economy in the world was in the west bank and gaza israel did let me finish please all the universes eleven universities were open for palestinians by the palestinians by israel i want to say one significant thing polls were taken in one thousand nine hundred sixty one thousand nine but the most important palestinian posters here is palestinians to rate for places in the world in democracy and human rights and in those early years after the beginning of the oslo accords from one thousand nine hundred six to nine hundred ninety nine before

all the palestinian hate education came through four years in a row palestinians gave israel the best rating in the world in democracy and human rights better than the united states better than france and far better than the palestinian authority the palestinian people when they were under is an administration admired within you larry that even if i gather i'm good neighbor susan jump in go ahead exactly exactly i hate to say this is a way to mind a road race imagine that when a blip intifada they rated israel better than the palestinian authority except the palestinian authority that actually exists at that time that's what i'm saying in these hard life i mean after the palestinian authority live under that excuse we observe even though it's a holiday imposed for don't military occupation palestinians live under a brutal military occupation i don't think so you say so to home demolitions the layer of freedom but in a day or so it's not i'm not saying so this you know this i am palestinian and i

you don't get to separate me from them and this is the opinion of every human rights organization that has ever ever observed or covered the situation in that part of the world this is how things are so much a plane of those posts and exactly why palestinian so there was there are hundreds of palestinians hundred. palestinian children who languish in israeli jails without charge or trial one on one planet is any palestinian going to say that they you know that israel that they're rating israel number one is that why they launched a resistance and a popular uprising is that why they're marching every friday against the wall is that why human rights workers from all over the world gathered to support palestinians is that why nelson mandela said you know we will never be free and i will tell you why there must be an brothers are free the whole world is standing against you in the face of this occupation and this man and it's him are you are trying to say that oh we actually love this occupation that's all ranges what

you're saying is completely on usenet you're not listening to me go ahead and i mean i know you get it i don't know if joint years really an obstruction beginning of the us no period all right i have to jump in on we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on the occupation state starkey.

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welcome across. talking about the israeli palestinian conflict. and. say. all right michael and i to go back to you in tel aviv where is the so-called peace process now if there is no occupation. the peace process is clinically dead it's exists solely for the purpose of a process at this point. we haven't seen any serious efforts in at least three years to reach any two state solution and i think it's in the interests of both political leadership that is that it is that way both of them have an interest in sustaining the process. for the israelis the status quo has become comfortable for the palestinians they don't actually have the ability to deliver a two state solution both because of the schism with hamas and also because the palestinian authority president abbas lacks democratic legitimacy. he's in the

seventh year of a four year term. and both of them not that the palestinians are happy with the status quo but by by maintaining the process they're able to push forward. statehood bid and more or different steps towards independence and where is the peace process in your mind it look because i think what michael just said makes a lot of sense i mean we really don't see any evidence of it at all absolutely i mean i agree with michael. it has it's been a process all along it was. it is seems that it was intended all along to just be a process to to buy time as we've seen israel has used that time to more than quadruple the presence of illegal settlers in the territory that was ostensibly to be created as a palestinian state. there's there's no way in my mind that

a viable palestinian state in the west bank and gaza can emerge under the current conditions that israel has created. precisely because of these illegal colonies that are entirely segregated so you know in order to ensure the rights of everyone who is living there to provide full equality under the law regardless of religion creed color which is is hopefully the ideal. i see no other way than to create a single state where where the rights of everyone rights a very wise are respected i think that's really what it gets down to it's a one state solution can israel give the palestinians equal rights well i don't think a one state solution will satisfy him when he says that the reality right now is

that the reality right now is a one state if there is no occupation it will be right there is no occupation there is one state number of years and i'll tell you what. from up for many years from for many years from sixty seven to one thousand nine hundred three before the oslo accords there was the fact of one state in fact there were no borders there were no checkpoints and hundreds of thousands of palestinians worked in israel spoke hebrew and it was all israel hoped with the signing of the oslo accords to have a peaceful palestinian side who would then work out a final agreement with us so that we could have two states living side by side in peace and i just want to tell you what has been happening and what's been going on on the palestinian side let me just quote you from some things that have been said by official palestinians recently so for example at an event which was the forty seventh anniversary of the founding earlier this year the most he was introduced with the following words are war with the descendants of the apes and pigs is

a war religion and faith after he said this that the war with israel is a religious war then the most it came up and said that it's law meant destiny essentially to kill all the jews to bring about resurrection we had a children's program just a few months ago a young girl on television said that christians and jews are very to christians and jews are inferior smaller more cowardly and despise them to market forces anymore as it is that any worse for a party is really behind a very bad any worse than politic politicians in israel saying there is no such thing as an palestinian yes or yes maybe the palestinian to accomplish and other things like that i mean what you the equivalence here i don't see the point of no listen to what's the point you know i'll answer your question if i can just say this i think i'm fairly sure iran was when are we going to class is any i mean right so you enter in and i had serious and the energy and the going as we listen here and we'll ask him you after you asked peter you asked him a direct question and instead of answering you he's creating the smoke and mirrors

once again to try to try and create and try to portray palestinians as these monsters irrational violent i mean this is the israel this is their tactic it's such then and this is is this. the propagandists attempt i just knew i was there on my. own merits i guess using it at them but you know what i can't sit here i can sit here and point out a whole lot more israeli textbooks television shows quotes of by leaders in the highest office that completely demonize and dehumanize us that relate to us in the most horrible animalistic terms but that was not the question he asked you a direct question and why don't you just answer that that's not in the other thing is your claim your claim your claim that you know since the oslo accords israel has just been trying to to help establish you know a policy and see what tell me then why did israel actually confiscate nearly all of the areas sea and proceed to build settlements on

confiscated palestinian property most of it from private palestinian owners in order to build jewish only colonies with segregated roads that are palestinians are not even allowed to drive on and checkpoints the route if it was indeed the intention of israel to to to comply with the oslo accords why did they do that why did they go about making facts on the ground that make they didn't. you're making a palestinian and i to go to michael michael was also really there are many mean let's go to michael in tel aviv was also just really a mandate to create settlements not a peace process. think the intention of also was to let's not forget that all slow was it was a temporary process it was a process itself. the division of areas a b. and c. was a temporary situation until the future borders could be negotiated. what it

resulted in is as not benefit the palestinians definitely. with the exception of the second intifada that came following the also accords it has created a relatively comfortable status quo for israel where settlement growth has continued that is true. making it more difficult to move beyond a process that was only supposed to last for a few years and it's now eighteen years old ok to my do you have any sympathy for the palestinian people at all. even your tone and your question is unfortunately you know like i'm going to the issue of the people or the bell where there's problems and not wait until in france where. people are important yes it is and i why would you assume that i don't because i'm israeli i don't i absolutely have sympathy and i have palestinian friends and there are even palestinian journalists who i speak to regularly about the terrible things we're witnessing a palestinian media watch and the hope to bring about peace with the palestinians

you can be a peaceable stand there be a p i have tremendous sympathy and all i want i would love. let me tell you something when i quoted you before is the reason why there's no peace the palestinian use in the past the need adults are being bombarded with such poison and such hatred there never would have been and it defied had there not been poisoning from one thousand nine hundred four through the year two thousand that we were observing and that we were screaming about and we were warning about it because as i said polls showed at the beginning of the oslo accords that palestinians admired israelis and democracy human rights that was a population we could have slipped into a peace treaty with if not for all the poison coming from the palestinian leadership who came from tunisia as you know this was not the local population we signed oslo with who very much wanted to live in israel in peace this was a foreign population yasser arafat they poison the people they started into further they created violence and they essentially the worst i have appeared in jumpin please do he. is right exactly i stand for mr it's some are. you know

my parents i'm palestinian my parents were born there my grandparents are buried there my great grandparents are buried there you can go back for centuries and my direct line i'm not talking about my religious attachments or anything else my direct personal history i would like you to tell me why you a new york born white jewish man with no apparent. personal family ties beginning with your parents and going for why do you feel you have more rights than i do to live in that land or my parents who can't even step foot there. just answer that question for me ok i will answer that went ok when the zionist movement started. people disagree about the population of the land at the time but even at the highest population about your giving it to you and your

starting point for gay marriage i'm glad i'm not honey i'm answering your question you're a flock and there's again i'm talking about me and i'm giving you the answer and you know you're not you're never of the right there is no one answer that you have let me finish answering i had yes and there is not one answer that you let me finish tonight please i just finished when the zionist movement started this land had a few hundred thousand people the majority were arabs but today this land has over ten million people those hundred thousand people did not have the land there was mostly owned by foreigners people who lived in syria people of the lebanon the land was desolate when the zionist movement started you'll tell me it wasn't i'm telling you now there are ten million people now there are two hundred thousand people then when the zionist movement started jews started moving there were turning to our land a great hunger and i was right no one was this no one was let me finish no one was displaced. no one was interesting article rami was an american from the nineteen eighties come on now really no no no no no no i don't excuse me lands on

a piece i was i don't want to live here we're only or high and there's two thousand and twelve i want the story. because when you have one hundred fifty thousand people in a land where there are ten million today the land was empty just look at the numbers. the majority the landlady's done as i did and our great americans can immigrate you know irish they were in least eight hundred thousand there were at least eight hundred thousand refugees that were expelled where how did you how did you squeal how did how were half a hundred people get squeezed out when you know a hundred thousand that you know you're referring to this is outrageous and you know why israeli that is you know whether it was a four letter i mean like everyday or say is just is just outrageous that it's just outrageous and it is this guy gourmet they don't even you're talking about it even britney mandate that how right folks we didn't resolve anything as usual on this topic many thanks to my guest today in jerusalem tel aviv and in san diego and thanks to our viewers for watching us here and see you next time remember prasar.

if you. want.

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