author of the recent book to hell in a hand-basket carter obama and the arab spring in washington we have grant smith he is director of the institute for research middle eastern policy and author of spy trade how israel's lobby undermines america's economy and in san jose we cross to stephen's eunice he is a professor of politics and international studies at the university of san francisco all right folks cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in any time when i like to go to you first a lot of people say that mr netanyahu is stepped over the line in meddling in american politics how do you respond to that i think he hasn't stepped over any lines in meddling in american politics i think that what he's done is doing is trying to protect israel and what he's been saying to president obama is that the time is running out for stopping iran's nuclear program and so what he's saying is listen if you guys don't do it i have to do it ok grant would you like to reply to

that yeah that's that's not it benjamin netanyahu is the leader of a nuclear tipped country in the most volatile region soon on the planet we know from an f.b.i. report that was released in june that he's even had his own hands into nuclear technology smuggling to beef up that arsenal what he's saying is obama you don't have time to keep on with these economic sanctions you've got it tack iran with your conventional weapons or else israel is going to use its on declared nuclear arsenal to incinerate its anime its nuclear blackmail basically ok stephen jump in from san jose. oh it's not unusual and not improper necessarily for foreign leaders to raise concerns about the policies of other governments including allies but there's a widespread consensus even among some of israel strongest supporters and in congress and in the media and elsewhere that. does seem to be bringing in

a degree of partisanship in support of romney and and an opposition to obama in this election year by by pushing a number of issues involving iran and other concerns ok ruthie what about that because it really doesn't mean i'm going to jump ahead he's duty. i'm going to jump in here now to say that if what you think if you think that netanyahu is lobbying for romney that's pretty funny considering that the jewish vote in america is going predominantly to obama and netanyahu is an ally of the united states but obama doesn't treat him like one i don't think this is nuclear blackmail this is no joke at medinah dad has made it clear that he wants to wipe israel off the map and then take care of it as a racer who now that's a mistranslation. that's not true at all. that he opposes

this regime that's not allowing any sort of palestinian autonomy in the region i do agree with ruth lee however that this is not just partisan politics israel is used to reaching into its lobbying organizations in the united states and having a direct hand in moving resources in animating in agitating i mean this is been going on since ben-gurion first visited the united states couldn't get weapons and so we put together an arms smuggling network to get what he wanted and ship it to palestine via rich zion this donors so i agree that netanyahu is definitely trying to have an impact on a broader section of american voters basically by using a baseless argument that israel is facing an existential threat which it's not israel is the nuclear head gemma in the hedge i'm on in the region ok stephen

jumping go ahead. this is a line that obama's not treating israel's an ally. israel currently receive more than a quarter of all u.s. foreign aid even though it's only one one thousandth of the world's population and that's a relatively affluent country obama has brought us aid. israel to its highest level in history despite cutbacks in domestic programs at home he has used his veto power in the un security council to veto a non-binding resolution simply reiterating the longstanding consensus international law based on the force of the. convention for previous un security council resolutions and a landmark world court decision that that the colonization the settlements in the west bank are illegal i could go down the list. to say it's something.

that obama is not adequately supporting israel or that he is not treating his role as an ally is a gross distortion of obama's record you can agree or disagree with specifics but he has recommitted in self both and were indeed to is a steadfast support to israel even under the current right wing government with which he shares some differences ok with you would you like to reply to me if i don't let me know i want to be fair roofie go ahead. yes i would like to reply to that first of all since obama took office the first thing he did was to make it clear to the radical islamist world that he was going to do outreach with them including iran when the iranian people took to the streets in two thousand and nine after ahmadinejad stole the election obama abandoned them in favor of the mullahs and what he said was well you know i'm not going to interfere in your process and

and i'm going to negotiate with anyone who wins that election a few months later a year later he did exact the exact opposite with all of the rest of the arab world when they took to the streets he abandoned american and israeli allies in favor of radical islamists what he. seems progressives i know them they are not radical islam and. these people want to democracy they want to. is a muslim brotherhood stephen go ahead president even more lenient. even when they're lecturing but people have a right to elect their own leaders the difference between you and me and things i believe in freedom and democracy i believe people should be able to elect their own leaders or not enough governments like that that's why i supported the revolution the aborted green revolution in iran that's why i supported the movements in tunisia and in egypt in yemen and in syria and elsewhere that we don't

hear of their pros us or any of us they they need to they need to be pushed aside and allow the people to choose. obama did not disappear within. the last elections in iran if united states did play a more active role it would play against it would hurt the movement which he very much supported the server which it is a basically real concern to. dollars yes ok. the u.s. needs to prop up a dictator if it in any way will be better for israel and so by ruthie's prescription the united states should have found another shaw for around the united states should have created a clone of hosni mubarak the united states should have basically supported any dictatorship that lost the support of its people if it were better for israel and

unfortunately you know you see the same sort of anti-democratic for and desire to support israel even in the united states i mean you should play that clip of where the democratic party delegates at their national convention are saying we don't recognize israel's illegal annexation of east jerusalem we don't want that in our democratic party plank and yet they were steamrolled by people within the democratic party who simply passed that resolution anyway and so this is neoconservatives smart yeah it's the same type of mentality that they either surrender with the guy has or merely it is and i read the ages there are many tears are fair time ruthie please jump in. they were not steamrolled by other members of the democratic party that fiasco at the democrat it were the tension was the one i reckon that i had its own island nation it

was over saddam was that way the israel lobby works on gentlemen. please speak roofie obama orchestrated that fiasco they were not steamrolled by other members obama gave the directive not to let that pass because he was afraid that that might lose him and elect a general election that's first of all second rate of amazing. why should he be afraid of that because the one true way to put that out of the america i need please i'm allies and peace into the democratic party platform which you know basically destroys any u.s. credibility for negotiating any sort of settlement all rights horrible is very intense and very split. into three separate three missing some point what is the power of the lobby the israeli lobby party hollowing obvious great leagues go ahead

i think the power of the lobby is greatly exaggerated frankly the united states supports dictatorships in the arab world the same reasons that supported dictatorships and in africa and asia and latin america elsewhere throughout history that because they believe that these dictatorships and they may be more supportive of u.s. strategic and economic goals then than democracies is not the put the blame on israel is grossly exaggerated certainly the blame on the israeli lobby you know israel's lobby back in the sixty's wanted to have israel armed with nuclear weapons and they steamrolled the kennedy administration with people like abraham feinberg financing nuclear weapons development shapiro transferring material i mean this is almost a clean are you saying that anything is more stick change or shift elsewhere in the world are you saying that's all israel lobby to i mean i got your son and i say to

show israel's last recent rewordings even created a credit processes in the united states for example israeli trade minister dan how current stole classified documents and they haven't really been here we're going to go to a short break folks a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the israeli lobby in the u.s. state. re jews and creative. elegance and full and public speaking. her from.

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welcome back across time to mind you we're talking about israel's role in america's presidential politics. ok stephen let's go back to what is the overlap of american foreign policy interest with israel's foreign policy interests well received. for see the overlap is the united states and israel both status quo powers. challenging both left and islamist of movements in that part of the world. military industrial complexes of the two countries are closely intertwined israel has and united states supported certain governments in insurgencies and others and. cooperate in intelligence

gathering and covert operations if you go down the list but. you know i think that while certainly the pros will lobby and plays an important role i think the main factor is they perceive fluence of interest and i think the long term it actually hurts this is where i want to. go because it encourages a backlash by extremists ok i think the perception is that israel is an ally ruthie what do you think about and also it's ok i think it's appalling that we should call the alliance between the united states and israel a perceived none of you has mentioned the share democracy shared values of freedom what about the palestinians those are the american society. what about their democratic right i'll tell you about the palestinians. the palestinians have made it clear again and again and have announced it that they can

say they're all of israel to be settlements the palestinians has three thousand eight hundred. american and israeli issue and israel within a status of a process ok grant jump in and clearly the israel lobby within really dominates washington is a pac and it has a direct lineage back to the israeli ministry of foreign affairs or its founder worked and so this lobby has been competing with law enforcement agencies and the foreign agents registration act to keep from being actually considered part of the israeli government all of these trade agreements and military agreements were not really motivated by u.s. needs they were lobbying initiatives for memorandums of understanding and all sorts of military aid the iran contra scandal in fact it was borne out of the lead in this where a bunch of israeli arms dealers are trying to find out how they could get back into

iran and then run the mossad torture camps and sell more arms back into iran so none of these were really. true that is and is really around me and i this point in time is extremely dangerous and believe me the cia and f.b.i. worry more about counterintelligence against israeli mossad than they do cooperating with it and whether that's the recent israel aircraft industries work with stewart and those that or the supply they think you major plank you major selling i don't know because you're espionage ok stephen go ahead ninety percent of all so so called u.s. military aid to israel goes back to american arms manufacturers it's a way of subsidizing the military industrial complex it doesn't help israelis in fact for every dollar that it was nice or true there's a lot of you know. they want he's a great source and he's only have twenty to five. and so they get lots of spin offs

so they manage to get lots of technology for their own industries and compete with the u.s. industry certainly is owners are years away leisure and there you see very well there's a real competition for you gentlemen your comedy goes for your top and they don't want to pay for their ok rupie i'd like to go to you netanyahu says that iran's only months away from getting the bomb ok he said the same thing in one thousand nine hundred two. you know what it's not only that and you know that said the same thing in one game when he said it and this is what we're trying to do for us when he's telling americans this ok scaring americans so why should we believe him now excuse me john bolton john bolton is an american and he's been telling that to israel for years as well because. it is no authority most at all is a pathological liar you believe that nuclear program was a lie. come on you can. ok if i want to get paid for get me ask you something on both and i would like to yes go ahead ok i would like to jump into these cock

a mamie concern here isn't familiar say about about as a real judith miller also saying that there is a nuclear weapons in iraq a gentleman let's let them i mean they're really nice beans i mean is it ok with a fair time fair time ruthie go ahead. and then tell me how is doing when in time now has to do he is assessing the world situation based on and now not only on analysis but on what the muslim world says publishes and does have you not noticed there has been massive acts of terrorism committed against the united states even more so than against israel you're talking as you know lawyers a lot more in this really enjoying the stories really like about the. conspiracy that is may happen. i said one of these really it was entirely america how do you notice that was terrorism when you marry him big and were setting off milk

can bombs to drive the british out that was terrorism what's this spouse a nation with terrorism is real the first of all the story of paul johnson was interesting they are going to go back to the 1940's it's interesting they are going back to the one nine hundred forty s. when menachem begin committed acts of terrorism quote unquote he first a warrant i don't see if there is any run you going to get out of anywhere he was the he was tried that's true he was trying to drive out the british and it is true he was using violent means but he was not using them as a way of murdering people and others were not of the order and there's a certain look here and there it was it was because of the terrorism the occupation the humiliation of palestinians and israel and the terrorist let me ask you examined who doesn't know anything about these real factors behind terrorism

wow lover is totally disinterested i think he knows very much out of terrorism energy but energy the issue is you know that i'm sorry. to say we've go ahead. you know. this actually is the occupation and oppression can never justify terrorism and terrorism can never justify occupation and repression and i don't like the fact that iran has supported extremist groups that have killed civilians i don't like the fact united states has sent aid to israel that's used those against civilians you know eight hundred civilians slaughtered in the cities and gaza and nearly that many years earlier on lebanon i oppose terrorism by by any sides and none but you know whether it be a regular armed group or state sponsored or u.s. ally that killing civilians is wrong across the board and none can justify the other and i think what we really need to do is have a consistent view on human rights where there's already too many arms and middle east the united states should stop supporting dictatorships we should stop

advocates yes we should stop supporting the israeli occupation we need to have a consistent pro-human rights rights goal and i really think that the it's not the problem is not the israel lobby because again the support of the draw here is it is a real where it's not the double standard on iran the israel lobby really. has a lot of and they're able to do with indian party stands nuclear and now it's a much more since you know i mean this is our biggest problem israel is its clandestine nuclear weapons program and it was the israel lobby that made a horrible policy of strategic ambiguity possible you know the israel lobby when nixon and kissinger were trying to shut down their nuclear program by denying jet fighters the israel lobby was going to work and they were trying to shut it down there too early in the morning already in the morning and gentlemen i am pained they were really told in lachlan's and said to me at all when i don't really know he still black i want to go back to ruthie ruthie do you think that netanyahu

alienates american jews. absolutely not i don't think. it's american jews i would like to say however that this so-called israel lobby that so pronounced is exactly something i will put that it's i'll put obama in the white house so you should be thrilled that the israel lobby the jews vote really never got two thousand and one and i mean i'm thinking marching orders from tel aviv in zero eight. and i want to get them registered as foreign agents so that we can have a better policy for the middle east apac those horrible work in terms of transferring unwarranted amounts of aid and weapons to israel and it's completely anti-democratic again what they can't win a bill such as the trade bill they steal information from their opponents and use

it against them it's one of the most anti-democratic and dangerous forces in america and it has to actually have their way around it's actually the other way around if anybody or any washington it's a pac if anybody has it had now a. parentless lead dangerous organizations been investigated by the f.b.i. back when morris amitie was working there he still has missile secrets to florida jordanian missile deal that almost drove him into the arms of the soviets i mean this organisation has been warding advise and consent governments ever since its founder left the israeli ministry of foreign affairs in one thousand fifty one ok steve i don't know how you can say it even i want to go back to you netanyahu risk a real rift with the united states of iran. you know he has alienating a lot of some of the strongest supporters as i mentioned earlier and jews according to public opinion polls are much closer to obama's position than they are to

netanyahu is position not just because of the iran are these are the the palestinians as well. packet is not representative of the jewish community not even represent of the americans i insist is there is there is on the us on the right wing of american jews and the more netanyahu is criticized obama the higher obama's ratings have been in terms of american jews over seventy percent of american jews who find a vote planned to vote for obama and so i mean i think it just shows how isolated a pack is and not just in terms of us follow politics overall but but even among the american and jewish community including those who are broadly supportive of israel all right that's. going on for hours i want to thank my guests today in new york washington and in san jose and thanks to our viewers for watching a c.r.t. the next time remember crosstalk. can

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