previous policy turkey is now saying it would support this initiative it really remains to be seen whether other players not just players in the syrian opposition but whether other regional players whether the gulf arab states this would be prepared to support this and use their influence with opposition groups will the united states support this this would require a significant change in direction for the united states for the gulf arab states to support this kind of initiative but it is really the only way out in beirut what do you think about that i mean we've heard about you know negotiations before and they've always fallen apart so how realistic is it this time. first of all war in syria is a primarily western nato war on syria it is not the primarily a civil war it is a part of clear and tangentially a civil war which was used and exploited by what sort of power by nato ally turkey

to syria into western policy and to bring down that assad regime so what on syria is drive by is a west to control is through syria and our board using turkey is a new islamist regime in turkey the new islamist regime in egypt in libya as well as in tunisia along with already established. regime is in the gulf and in monaco or in jordan this new alliance aims at bringing down the last hour. or arab nationalist energy after saddam hussein was brought down and got tough he was brought down so really it is a war over who controls the middle east if the nato and its allies when that are countries of the middle east will fall under western nato control for the because you just become and if syria is able to resist. this a blood drive on it that will be a setback for him

a thaw and that i've been. in new york i had you jump in we have very different points of view. i have to partially disagree with flint and. there are undoubtedly foreign forces at play here. sees the continuation of the cold war in the middle east between iran and saudi arabia between sunni and shiite forces absolutely but i disagree with the point of view that this is just the foreign power struggle no it's not assad regime for many years as oppresses own people there's been distinct corruption in that country where many people around in the countryside have been marginalized they have been massive abuses of human rights. so over the years and the syrian people have basically been ruled by the barrel by the gun in that country and what we see is a backlash of many years of oppressive policies by the assad regime so yes there are foreign players in this conflict but let's not forget the syrian people their

life was not paradise in gratian little form. their conflagration up a very good point what about the people because it looks like the proxies are not thinking about the people they're thinking about the other proxies openly other proxies. yeah you know i think that i think i'm probably somewhere between between myer and i am on this i think that there is a genuine popular base for the opposition in syria there are indigenous factors that contribute to this conflict certainly but i also think that the syrian government the government retains the support of probably a narrow majority of the syrian population you know at least half of the syrian population i think still supports the government that's why i say i don't think there's really

a military solution to this i've not that confident that the government can really win militarily particularly as long as the opposition is supported by outside players but i also don't think there's a way for the opposition to win and that's why i come back to my basic point that the only way out of this is a negotiated political process the problem so far has been that there are players the united states the gulf arabs the turks that have insisted up to this point that any political process not just have preconditions but what you might call pre results that departure had to be stipulated at the get go and for the united states there is further concern that they have never wanted to have iran involved in a regional process or a contact group on syria that's just not a serious diplomatic position if you really want

a political settlement that's why you come back to the point that if we're going to have a political settlement it is going to requires some significant shifts in turkish and u.s. and gulf arab policies if you're in new york. jumping pleased to. see. peter peter flint is being a little bit too kind on the iranian government here in regards to their impact on the conflict that we see that's going on the iranian regime had recently in in september had they told some talks with members of the opposition but they always insist that the opposition has to accept that the bashar assad stays in power this is what these lamas said after they met with the legations from the reigning government when they travel to tehran. there have been talks but again the reigning government is also one of the causes of this come conflict we see that they are supporting the assad regime financially we see that the iranian regime itself members of the quds force the deputy head was saying that they are assisting the assad regime and the iranian regime has always insisted that assad stays no i think

this is something that has to be agreed between the syrian parties but one thing's for sure flynt assad cannot stay after the massive abuses of human rights in his own country after you know there's a recent human rights report that says twenty eight hour years in syria have disappeared what can what chance is there for us are to stay we all want to negotiate a settlement after this and i think this is for the syrian people to decide ok general we told really running. from you i think in beirut you're going on let's say assad did leave what difference would it make there are still people there that are stuck in the middle of a sectarian war. first of four we will be do your duty i want to serve and fooling i wonder. if we say a war on syria is a war on human rights and on democracy which countries in the middle east which are always things i wars on syria or support things i want on syria as

a gun of oil companies the royalists companies that headed to thirty system is those countries as a ploy to get your my rights as a. supporting of human rights and c.b.s. no this is not the questions i question is a struggle for power is a struggle over resources of that even understandable to control that he's run through the last bastion which is that as this things us at them without control which is the syrian regime the syrian regime is not probably the idea is that she and that is implementing a human rights on syria we are not claiming that but says syria there g.m. is on human rights and civil liberties and that i had some of my in order these has about that of fart about that and i call it the most of the energy mix of that all your listeners dreams which are to claim in full support of democracy in syria this is one hundred seventy years i want to join you go ahead in new york to jump in please do so sorry that i agree with your point that i don't i don't think for

a moment that the saudi royal family or the qataris are out of flame hold of human rights you know they are not they're not the leaders absolutely but i think it's inaccurate to say that all countries will support our in our undemocratic look at turkey turkey is a very democratic country look at egypt egypt has recently had a revolution and it's been my friend i sharif and west says let democracy in turkey let's take the democracy internally does my thing if it does is a democracy like good adam a practical action erdogan won fair and square on us and i like the songs on my not it isn't going to keep i've been a lot like rumsfeld into what what is that what the where i was i'd. according to us and thirty's the human rights of the court was the political right is a slow regarded as fate is laid low you don't really know you far away you go to the break i want to go to flint jam before we go to the break democracy's kind of dropped off the agenda here when we look at syria has been it really

i don't know the never really been on the agenda ok i agree good. keep going i don't think it's ever really seriously been on the agenda i think that you know i think that niamh made a very very good point at the outset by saying particularly for the united states. the united states jumped on this situation much as it jumped on the situation in libya because after the loss of mubarak in egypt the obama administration really telling the american way where's the i just want to knock your comparison when finished. so you go to great rationale it's the same basic it's the same basic rationale the united states the obama administration was looking for places where it could appear to be on quote unquote the right side of history and take the arab awakening when i mean if i didn't hear gentlemen i'm sorry we have to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on syria today

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still. come up to. plug. welcome back to cross talk on capitol hill to remind you we're talking about the syrian civil war good. luck getting. started it's. my only go back to you in new york here there was a bit of a blow out there about what's the nature of democracy in this conflict here and you disagreed flem so go ahead you can finish up your point. i think i think this this conflict is also about democracy and the syrian people who are fighting for their right to vote in their own country and not to live under a one party system i also disagree with flint and the things that he says that this is the same as what america did in libya you can compare american involvement in libya which involved using fighter bomber jets and nato to what is happening in syria and i think america's actually taking the right choice by backing what is happening in syria and in terms of iran well the arab spring has been

a disaster from the beginning for iran we saw what happened of the tehran on the line moving the one in there and basically backed the syrian people against the iranian regime's point of view and this is just going to get this current trend of the arab spring being against iranian interests is going to continue and i don't blame and i don't blame the rains for seeing it as something negative to go to be. what do you think i do remember you. go ahead and we're going to be rude. yeah i think the radiance definitely see this differently and i think they actually are right on this point analytically they think the arab spring is working very very strongly in in their favor in that any government in this region which becomes at all more representative of its peoples attitudes beliefs preferences and so forth is automatically going to become less

interested in strategic cooperation with the united states much less with israel supporting that it's going to become more open to an iranian message of resistance because i think that asada in contrast to mubarak. actually has a popular base as i said i think he's got half of syrian society on his side you know what why should i saw a little before i was interested in with that. there's so much. for your time let's go to beirut iran isn't. colonel reforms fair time why not have one time on what i think for the gentlemen let's just. go ahead. let me pick up where a friend has mentioned. a few months ago a qatari funded institute and took a public opinion survey in syria and this sort of showed that fifty

four percent of the syrian people supported the assad regime that was in the early summers and i think now after that increasing and massive destruction which is a striking syria and everywhere the popularity of that i didn't see him as we can see has risen from the fifty four percent the probably to sixty percent of people are afraid in syria for the future after this whole bombardment and then as well which is striking all over the country this has then turns out that assad regime did and did not weakens assad regime so it is if you are to speak on a from the perspective of democracy and of popular support that assad regime does have a popular support and this is a fact based on data and this that this sticks and as i pointed out i am evil what i want for our for our friends my my it is not mentioned in new york if the issue is democracy. in the middle east is one of the closest system in the

world left typed it has cracked down on a on a movement does which was elected democracy democratically and it was supported by the united states to destroy hamas and destroy it as a how can we talk about democracy we cannot have our cake and eat it too we cannot use double standard when we talk about democracy we have to are to speak with a house a steady hand as far as logic is concerned this is a shoe my good friend this is not about democracy it is about a strategic withdrawal over the resources of the middle east this is a fundamental fact that leadings i measure the power to. in the world to get involvement in this mission from the united states to britain to france and most recently to russia russia i think has and has taken a very good position in standing up against this western new imperial attempt to control the middle east and specifically the near east syria and so on

involved and i think the future will tell that assad will get out on from this conflict on top side we're on the same irish and there's you know a lot said there's a lot to deny or go ahead in new york. well just just to first of to start with flints point regards to iran i think the running regime is not interested in democracy in syria the reason being is that between all the people in the middle east they run and people know syria best because a lot since the revolution hundreds of thousands of iranians of travel to syria they go and visit the shiite shrines the as it is a now been in damascus many of the government subsidize their holiday trips are for civil servants are there and people know syria very well and the iranian regime is scared because if the syrian regime falls that could set an example for the iranian people who could say look we also lived in a in a dictatorship and we also want to have freedom just like the syrian people i'm not

saying that what is happening in syria both sides are playing fair i think they're all positions they're also concerned about the opposition forces some of them are jihadi some of them we you know are al qaeda related but the concept here remains that the people in syria are participating in this conflict i don't agree with saying that the regime is popular name how can the regime be popular when he uses cluster bombs against its own people which popular regime we should call twenty four hours earlier this neighborhood country and where you got israel can just make one more point with regard to israel i disagreed with the israeli policy of not allowing hamas. when hamas won they were siding with p.l.o. and piro did not allow hamas to take over the government as they were supposed to after the elections i agree this was a mistaken policy for israel to back the p.l.o. however after that i also blame hamas hamas is also responsible for not allowing democracy to flourish because they don't agree to new elections israel is not an

apartheid state it doesn't make mistakes let's also not forget the palestinians i think in that conflict both sides have got their own share of blame then you go ahead reply go ahead. unfortunately has been the state the hootch has. made infraction and violation of international law in some most number of cases since world war two was and it is i gave up on a c n n in gaza hours i west bank or . was it would have been to create the jewels of the matter or it is sold out of lebanon or in other parts of their board so this is not the issue it was ok it is you can lost rules all right i want to i want to stay here your old i want to stay with syria flint if i go back to you it looks more and more like a city carrying more do we should we start saying sectarian war instead of civil war because when we add all the proxies in it's sectarian all the way down the line

. i think that the sectarian card has basically been used by the opposition element and by some of its. sternal supporters as a way of mobilizing support against this so supposedly infidel regime in damascus i think that i mean certainly the assad government draws a lot of its support from religious minorities in syria but that's not the only base of support that it has and i think that to the extent this conflict is becoming sectarian eyes that's being done by elements on on the opposition side and it's not a very positive positive trend i think in terms of the comparison of the way the u.s. is dealing with libya the way the u.s.

is dealing with with syria obviously the united states is not intervened directly militarily yet in syria but i think that the fact that in contrast to libya that russia and china have been willing to veto three security council resolutions which would have legitimate sort of intervention by the united states is a really important factor here it's certainly not a guarantee that the united states won't at some point basically act even without a security council resolution the united states unfortunately has done that has done that before but i think that has been an important constraint on the united states in this in this situation and it's a slightly whoever wins. here is going to have a strategic choice to make ok it's going to be a route go ahead if it is making a valid point. it is

a position in syria which has. made this conflict sectarian damascus five point five million people who live in damascus and around damascus the absolute majority of them are sunni and many of those sunni supporters energy him. more as a city a city that is three million people alipore as a province five point five million people many in aleppo also support of the regime and they are sunni sectarian character of this conflict has been made by the opposition by how jacking your people on their ideas. back a ground. back a ground or sectarian back around and killing them for more as a result than being a christian or to being underweight in the in very very ugly and barbados but on the journey here almost out of time i want to give my year the last time the last word on the program could we see syria partitioned as one of the outcome. my i

think though i think the fact that the syrian government is arming the kurdish rebels in northern syria on the border with turkey is creating a de facto state kurdish state in that part of the part of the country and if asada falls i think we're going to see the kurdish people probably declare independence so i have some kind of a kurdish regional government like there is in northern iraq i think that's a very positive development to the world powers who drew up the maps of the six pick a degree meant basically forgot the kurdish people and i think this is going to be a very positive development to see them at least off the many years of suffering and is communication having their own state ok gentlemen i wonder what the the neighborhood would say to that many thanks my guest today in new york washington and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember a problem. well

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