good afternoon welcome to capital account i'm lauren lyster here in washington d.c. these are your headlines for wednesday october thirty first two thousand and twelve . there you go the u.s. stock market reopened after two days of sandy and some ask if this superstorm had regulators bearing not on the side of caution because of erosion of the shoreline but the a rhodesian of the best or confidence any year that seen m.f. global grain knight capital disasters all to name

a few on the one year anniversary of m.f. global's collapse which by the way is today we'll talk about what we think is standing in the way of restoring confidence we'll talk to a customer in peregrine who was still trying to find a way to hold regulators accountable and a superstorm sandy saw mother nature's wrath amount to death destruction fire unprecedented flooding on the east coast of the u.s. bad for victims is it also bad for some investors we'll talk to steve evans of artemis about catastrophe bonds and why the hunt for yield is growing this market and an ad for the tallest building support for whaling research these are probably not the ways japan's taxpayers were thinking the government would spend earthquake and tsunami reconstruction funds but that's what a widely reported audit found we'll talk disaster relief let's get to today's capital account.

superstorm sandy has flooded streets boys holmes and buildings caused power outages fire's devastation including the loss of dozens of lives in the us this is according to reports much of this all has occurred in new york the largest city in the united states now those in the business of trying to put a dollar figure on the economic damage of sandy put the loss at up to twenty billion dollars according to aqua caton i should mention these numbers are still very preliminary they estimate five to ten billion dollars of that amount i cited is expected to be insured losses so that also means a loss for the insurance industry and possibly security is related to it so what is

the impact on the catastrophe bond market what is the catastrophe bond market joining me is stephen evans founder and owner of artemis he consults and writes about catastrophe bonds of risk transfer and more artemis dot b.m. and he's going to tell us all about it so first of all thank you so much for being on the show welcome to capital account and circuits i'm not speak it's great to speak with you because truth be told i really have never heard of catastrophe bonds until stumbling upon your blog and reading about them and reading that sandy is relevant to them so before we get to sandy what are catastrophe bonds what is this market sure it's a fairly nice market as you would have worked and good to be when events like this stop them or do you that people should really take notice so to put it in simple terms or a financial instrument. to hedge against will protect itself against disasters

while on the flip side an investor is going to risk in return for an interest payment these are sophisticated investors who know what they're doing so they do this with their always wide open they're also known as insurance and securities and as well as covering trust. like a car a kind that can also cover life insurance health insurance or old lines of insurance business the market's been around you go now go right ahead you about the market share of the market's been around since the big ninety's when there was a number of people within the insurance market who sold the saudis of catastrophe losses from the kind of events that were happening back then a lot northridge earthquake and hurrican and jerry and they realized that the saudis of catastrophe events was getting such an extent that really the capital markets and capital market investors seemed like a very good place for the risk to be able to sit because they have they the financial backing to be able to support insurers in the times of need interesting so how does this work for the issuers of these bonds and who are the investors

primarily you mentioned they're sophisticated are these institutional investors are these retail investors sure well they sponsor saw it could be a primary us and sure the likes of us or travelers have issued cap bones and past that can also be reinsurers the major global reinsurers such as swiss re and munich re of old rule very involved in the capital markets. there's also actually the opportunity for corporations to issue their own capital as well this isn't solely something that insurers can do on the investment side they are institutional investors in the main very sophisticated they know what they're doing they employ technical and statistical cap models to help them to understand the risk typing on when they buy a cap bond so they're quite prepared to face losses if the worst happens and i really do everything they can to diversify themselves across a number of risks and also across a number of chip graphical areas as well so that pull photios can't be destroyed by

a single event interesting so what is the upside for these investors why are these desirable instruments sure at the moment they're very desirable because of the wider sort of financial climate to be honest with you. there's not that many assets out there that you can get a really good right of return on right now and cap bones i think of the deals that have been issued in twenty twelve the average return as a bank nine percent so that's really attractive to investors right now but as well as the actual return there's the fact that broadly correlated with the wider financial markets. they're not going to go down when stocks go down they're not going to go down when you have a solver in debt to crisis as we do at the moment largely on correlated and really the thing that triggers them and causes the losses is the events that are very strictly written into the contracts interesting and in this case given what worth saying with this super storm let's talk about the risks so what is the impact of

something like sandy on this market or what could it be sure with sandy it's actually it's really hard to tell exactly what the impact is going to be at this stage it's still early days as you said the estimates are very preliminary and it's going to take a number of days before they're ready to any degree but there are a good number of cap bones which have exposure in this area the white cap bones are issued they're structured in different ways to protect the invest the investors and also the small misses in the way that they need some be an aggregate capital and which means that it can add up losses from a number of events they are probably the warmest that are the most at risk if anything was going to get triggered the other type which are sort of one shot one massive event will trigger them we don't think that sandy is going to be big enough to trigger any of those but for the aggregate cap almost this could be a qualifying event which means that they rode some of the protection that they

provide to investors it doesn't necessarily mean investors will lose any money but there is the chance that the protection within the bond for the investors begins to get eroded a bit more ok when when you say triggered you mean bit there's been no. anger has to be paid because this event was too catastrophic is that what that mange yes that's right when a bomb gets triggered investors could lose a pool should all of or even a whole lot of the principal of that bill and. the trigger will generally be based on the odds of the losses suffered by the sponsor or on an industry loss basis so how big is the actual industry loss and a lot of the capital has that are exposed to the northeast us who are trying risk our own industry spice's so really it's the total industry loss to the insurance industry that's going to really matter there are other types of triggers as well some of parametrically triggered so triggered by wind speeds are occurring but none

of those are exposed in the northeast at this time interesting so just so that i'm straight on this as an investor in one of these the upside for you is you get nine percent yield in a in a time when it's difficult to get any he'll be able or say thing they're hopeful to get this return their money not even return on their money so that's the upside to that the downside is that the risk is the whether the risk is if there is a disaster there's too much of a disaster you don't get anything back is that what i'm what i'm gathering yeah. it may be that you get something back it doesn't necessarily mean the whole bownde is lost some of the bombs lose principal on a sliding scale but sensually the benefit is the uncorrelated return that the investors can achieve which generally if you're talking about a big investor like a pension fund for example they'll put a small amount a couple of percent of their total capital into the trash people market and it gives them a very nice diversifying our site with the only risk being that i have and

qualifies under the terms of the dail and the deals are very strictly written in legal terms to make sure that the investors are fully aware of what can trigger that bond interest and you mentioned. and buns which are something that you maybe don't traditionally think of investing in something that you said is very exotic as for sophisticated investors so this brings me to something that you've written about in your analysis which is that this market is doing very well it is the second best last year i think since you've been tracking it second only to two thousand and seven why is it doing so well right now sure there's a there's a number of factors coming into play this year of the factors is that we had the sort of extreme losses last year in the trash free market so not only a number of catastrophe bombs were affected but reinsurers generally faced a great deal of losses last year so capital was seen as a good wife shore up in that respect but the main factors were the hair all that there's greater acceptance of cap bombs now as

a form of restaurants for among the sponsors so the beginning to get more and more comfortable with this as a new sort of tool for their restaurants for toolkit among investors they will start getting more comfortable with these now and there's broader education about them people are beginning to sort of learn about these it generally takes an investor a good sort of six months potentially up to two or three years if they're a large institutional investor to decide to commit to this sort of market. for yield is a major major issue at the moment that's driving the market there's a lot of capital actually whiting to try and get into this market but currently the market's not big enough to satisfy all of it. so you may hear more and more investors sounding like meteorologist that was steve evans he's owner of artemis you can check out more about catastrophe bonds at his website artemis dot b.m. and still ahead it has been one year since the m.f. global collapse but what has changed will delve into that after the break but first

your closing market numbers. mean are we both agree we agree we have to bring the tax rates down i felt the same as the president did governor romney i'm glad. you agree with let's come back to something the president i agree on and the two you agree that the voters have a choice you know so when you wonder who to vote for when romney and obama agree on so many things remember you do have other options come november sixth tune in to see the second round of debates between the major third party candidates right here on r.g.p. . i

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welcome back as u.s. markets reopened today after two days closed for sandy a weather related closure of a length not seen since that eighteen hundred it's heard the question of why the markets really shut down here's the way it was posed to terrence duffy of the c.m.a. on bloomberg. if we look at the scandals the problems that have gone on over the last year whether it's knight capital peregrine and the global bat the facebook deal so many investors have simply lost confidence in the market without a factor at all in the decision made on sunday to really shut the markets down what is going to bring investors back to us financial markets.

now terence duffy cited macro events like the fiscal cliff is getting in the way of investor confidence but come on it is the one year anniversary of the collapse of m.f. global today and if you want to talk about bringing investor confidence back how about delivering some justice and the global customers still haven't gotten all of their money back we haven't seen john corazon or anyone from m.f. global in orange jumpsuits or even seen civil charges from regulators even though a year ago one point six billion dollars in customer money was taken and you may think paragraph and was more reassuring as there weren't charges and the c.e.o. pleaded guilty to embezzling more than one hundred million dollars from customers lying to regulators and fraud but you made these surprised at what standing in the way for some who are trying to hold regulators accountable joining me now is larry

williams he is author and veteran future trader and he's going to tell us all about this because he has been trying to get some people held accountable has it been working too well we're going to talk about why first of all thanks so much for being on the show. thank you my pleasure yeah just to put this in context mr williams you had money in a segregated customer account with pair or grand quite a bit of money according to a what you told me in a phone conversation we had have you gotten any back. no i haven't no i have not ok so no money back from peregrine and as we know because we've covered this extensively this fraud by the c.e.o. was going on under the nose of regulators for years he was falsifying bank statements using a phony p.o. box and while the c a t c is old similarly the regulator in response that's responsible there is what's called a self regulatory organization the n.s.a.

the national futures association which was responsible for much of the day to day policing in the auditing and in fact audited p.f.g. in two thousand and ten and two thousand and eleven it found nothing so are these the folks that you really hold responsible. i do and i am a former member of the board member of the n.s.a. it is their responsibility they are charged with keeping the markets fair not only for their brokerage firms themselves because they can be ripped off by customers. rogue traders as an example as well as customers and clearly the n.s.a. just walk away from any duty of the ok and resident the they're going to was on the board and they treated him with kid gloves and that's a great point you bring up which is that russ watson was on the board of the n.s.a. and you hold them accountable you want to hold them accountable for what you consider gross negligence these guys are not paid by taxpayers they are not a government regulatory body though they're given some of this authority by

government regulators you want to sue what did you find but it's really interesting what i found is this this group that really set themselves up they went to the commodity futures trading commission and let's set ourselves up they've been drawing salaries to president of well over a million dollars a year and you cut his benefits as well but they are totally immune as well i found out from lawsuits it cost me probably fifty thousand dollars in legal fees to find out but i think this is. an important battle this organization is supposed to protect us they have it and they can just walk away from it they have more immunity than john cores and you're right it should be in an orange jumpsuit but the n.s.a. members but they'll never morry about that they have no responsibility and what do you think is the consequence of that these guys get money from the industry to function a you say they get cushy salaries and yet they can't be held accountable by the industry they regulate that is correct the law is real clear that

a self regulatory agency can be sued even for gross negligence it's almost as though they are the government and you can't see the to the king so i think we have to come about with a new way of making these people accountable that's one thing being on shows like best to let people know how sad the situation tremendous me ports are i greatly appreciate the opportunity to be here today yeah of course and you mention the king and i did get some official who legally from your lawyer about how this works i think i asked for it in the plainest terms and here is what he said let's take a listen. the plainest terms i guess sort of the old terms that are there the kings agent and the king says you can't sue them in reality what you have is a sofer regulatory agent organization that is policing an industry that is paying for your existence but those people are supposed to

be protecting have no recourse when they feel completely at their job. so what do you see as a solution if there is literally no recourse through the legal system. well the market always works out a solution and one is many people are stopping trading and that alone is going to make the n.s.a. hopefully wake up and realize they do need a solution that this year that to make themselves accountable which is real simple you don't need another governmental agency all you need is for them down liability insurance for errors on a mission just like any corporate board out if they had that and would feel better about the fact that we can't be ripped off by the end activity the software good tory organization and it's important i think to talk about this issue of investors not being in the market especially on a day like today where the markets reopened people were thinking there was going to

be pent up demand and then at least as of this morning you had terence duffy in an interview saying it's half the volume that we would have expected already in a year when volume has been so light he talked about some macro economic issues but to what extent do you think the global the pair of grains and the still year of regulators laws they think there's a lot of things play there actually two things first of all a lot of brokers are owed commissioned by m.f. global and by green a minute they're going to get paid for honest work that they did so brokers saying you know what i'm going to find a job where i get paid so that hurts the industry and then traders such as myself and and people i know throughout the world to say why would i want to commit millions of dollars to this game if i can lose all of my money not because of my bad traits but because somebody stole it right out from under the eyes of the regulators and there's no recourse so it's really going to hurt the industry the industry needs to stall the situation to shore it up again to give good foundations

for traders and investors do you think one of the ways would be to not have these self-regulatory organizations that are funded by the industry but these powers by government as well as a new unity government enjoy well there's probably a good place for the f.a.a. and all the. is that a one or two cent surcharge on trade and set up an insurance program some of the f.b.i. c s l i c or have an insurance policy to cover their off their errors and omissions that's a simple process to do it doesn't take a rocket science it doesn't take another bureaucracy it doesn't take a senator to suggest that they should do that on their own and you've been in this industry for a long time you've been trading for decades is this the worst you've seen it in terms of the industry's confidence in the regulators it is in fifty years of trading and it's been

a little bit over fifty years now i've seen everything come and go. and there's always been the problems here and there's been bad group there but my gosh to this magnitude i never imagined that it would be to this magic magnitude and this depth defeats to see people are former senators still literally still i think one of the billion dollars it disappears to see brokerage firms collapse with no support from the government or the the regulatory agencies that was never in anybody's imagination not in their worst nightmare wow well i appreciate you for being on the show and telling us this story a year after the collapse of and that's global when it does feel so little is changed i should also mention to our viewers about why you wouldn't just go forward with that anyway you can actually get docked with sanctions and sees for filing a claim that is found to be not meritorious or some kind of legal term that maybe i messed up but that's what your learned told me earlier so thank you first hearing

the story larry williams author and veteran futures trader. thank you. all right let's wrap up with loose change at dimitri i want to talk to you about the interview we had earlier on this whole idea of catastrophe bonds and hedging against the risk of not the financial system not the mortgage market not the european sovereign debt crisis but the web what do you think of that i think this is really interesting actually you this was a pretty pre-tape interview because stephen is located in london so after hearing the interview i had some questions for him and i gave him a call because what i admire her first heard this i thought immediately i feel like

some of things you said as far as people really understand the risk models and going in with their eyes wide open i think there are a few points i want to make number one i think this is an example of how. financial innovation can sometimes get a bad about rap when it shouldn't because this clearly addresses risks it does a good job of trying to spread those risks for example taking away from insurers or reinsurers and putting them into a broader capital base however there's an important point to note here and that is the quest for yield right the very low rates of interest that the fed and other central banks are artificially created have created bubbles right they create a bubble in the housing market so financial innovation their securitization of that this is that's really a bad thing is that the exact same thing and in some ways and yet the very low interest rate environment because they've boom in that securitization a boom in home building and a credit bubble in this case i could see a perfect example i'm not saying this will happen with this market but what i'm saying is when you have very low rates of interest you could incentivize let's say

buy this through this marketplace and set them. sure insurance at lower premiums create a boom a small small boom in that industry and basically create create a bubble right in the insurance market now again i want to make clear this is in the mortgage market so much smaller market. and that's important so so i thought that was interesting and i think i think is interesting is in general there's whether derivatives market i would be kind of prices and i'm a big fan of free market and i would like to see if there is some way that we can use that will weather derivatives market which are from want to understand is not necessarily that big or maybe the options market is but is there any way to price in or figure out what investors think is the likelihood of catastrophic events going forward in other words how like how real is climate change because it's a debate that people have rightly and academic market way and on the other like this or you're saying it's interesting prices one thing about betting on the weather at least you're betting on something that may be unpredictable but it's not

being manipulated in the way that the ecosystem of the economy is by central bankers when she gets back to your issue of yield that's not you know maybe people would rather risk the weather than central planning it's a good point that goes back then correlated aspect of it which is that it isn't the the weather is not correlated to the risk in the financial markets to make sure before we go because we're talking about risk we're talking about not just natural disasters and this audit came out that japan tsunami funds have been used on things like paving roads in other places advertising for the tallest building whaling research does this get to the issue of government allocating this money because what i find is case after case too where you hear non-profits misusing money to so what do you think is the solution there i have to get eight second or first as i listen i just think it shows how corrupt governments are and how it's one thing i like about what to redistribute funds and then when you look at it in practice you

see just how bad government is doing it's true but you see the same thing with nonprofits. we're going to have to leave this open ended maybe you can tell us what you think of that's all we have time for thanks for watching come back tomorrow and the meantime you can follow me on twitter go to our you to hulu or facebook and have a good night. emissions free grinning tastes three friends four charges free arrangement free. street stooge rights free. download free bone counseling videos for your media projects a free medio gone to our t.v. dot com. culture is that so much going to be a huge music history of a person's mind mark let. me say also it's only getting worse as money or saudis

going to mention restoring order and take on the. wealthy british style sun. it's no time to write something a little cartoon i was. my .