if you. want. hello and welcome to crossfire i'm peter although a fragile cease fire hangs over gaza after eight days of destruction and death what did israel actually achieve what about the palestinians on what grounds can hamas and the people of gaza claim victory in this round of the conflict and is this truce merely a preload to more complex. to cross-talk the cease fire in gaza i'm joined by your mate while in tel aviv he is head of the herzog center and a faculty member at ben gurion university in gaza we cross to harry fear he's a documentary filmmaker and an activist and in amman we have moon rabbani he is coeditor of the job all right gentlemen crosstalk rose in fact that means you can

jump in anytime you want moving i'd like to go to you first in amman both sides are claiming victory here how can that be. well i think it's typical for all sides to claim victory and it's and it's questionable whether any one emerges victorious from such a conflict but i think if you look at it in political terms how can i think legitimately legitimately claim significant achievements whereas i cannot i think if you you know and it's not just how massive i think it's palestinians across the board including many who simply detest hamas who feel that rather than israel having deterred the palestinian factions in the gaza strip it was in fact they deterred israel from launching a ground invasion and whereas the previous israeli assault on the gaza strip in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine and you know

a lot of israeli cease fire pursuant to which israel basically. maintained that it could strike again will this time there is an agreement under which israel has made clear commitments that it has refused to make before how long it lasts is of course an entirely different question but i but i do think. you can legitimately claim significant achievements as a result of this agreement you're in tel aviv how do you see this who won who lost you agree with marine. well this country is not a zero sum game where one punch or the other side he's on the ground. is right is going. wrong but i don't think that this is the last round between these parties prostration news royal in general of the public opinion

he's really frustrated by the outcome of the you say days of confrontation and tomorrow. the most important to. emphasize this is that the game has changed the rule of the game has changed during this. of cycle of violence and the most important changes i see is not in the so called victory by the not victory by. but the most important factor here is the involvement. in this conflict ok harry how are the people in gaza i mean i've seen a lot of pictures here that they're actually happy it's over and i mean they suffered a great deal. well gazans are going through the first hours of

ceasefire where f. sixteen flying overhead fewer times a day where there are no bombs being dropped so gazans are feeling the relief of no more blood being spilled although people are still dying from injuries from the last few days sustained over the last few days however those that i've spoken to analysts here political activists analysts and except for very cynical about this is fired because it's a very simple c.s.i. just says stop firing at each other it really is a very simple cease fire and if we put that in a historical context israel has generally broken most of the cease fires that have existed and so from the palestinian point to this is seen as more of a lot more of a temporary stop to the bloodshed than some sort of massive political diplomatic game it seems like really the target people were killed obviously and we can talk about how precise it was but it was an infrastructure event they destroyed an enormous amount of in the infrastructure that seemingly has nothing to do with

military or any other kind of activity beyond running a city. but i think that's precisely the point or at least part of the point is there was enormous devastation but it was not the devastation that israel set out to inflict. harm us or at least. didn't manage to those targets which israeli defense minister. within hours of the beginning of this latest assault claimed he had achieved such as the long range missile capabilities while i well i generally agree with what harry said particularly about the cynicism about how long this will last i would like to slightly disagree with him i mean if you look at the agreement first of all there is an agreement second of all it's not just quiet for quiet it in fact commits israel to cease doing things that it. has been doing for the past several years in other words palestinians in

the gaza strip for example now according to this agreement have the freedom of movement up to and including the boundaries between israel and the gaza strip in other words it is still in prison on friday and that's in their own land. of course everyone agrees we know you are. and i don't think i would disagree with that characterization at all but i think there are elements in this agreement particularly if it leads to a genuine easing and eventual lifting of the blockade that help explain why so many palestinians feel that they came out of this strengthened in an improved situation but at the same time ironically it's precisely because of the point you're a made about israeli public opinion and so on that the next round could be sooner

rather than later in terms of israeli politicians particularly. as expected netanyahu was reelected being heavily criticized for basically and being up at the end of this in that position no better and arguably worse than where he was before it began. did you think netanyahu miscalculated. well i think in general the whole of the security apparatus the decision making during this operation. was. i would say. very difficult from the perspective of the israeli public opinion the major problem was not. in the eyes of most of the israelis the major problem was not the operations against the palestinian population and the

gaza strip in general. the major problem was that there during this eight days there has been like a huge gap between the expectations to. give hamas and the other palestinian factions a huge blow there a tory cause hamas will go down to its knees and that they will wave a white flag and the outcome of course here was so far away from this so i think that yes in the eyes of most of the public opinion of israel it's not only about frustration they're asking no question is difficult questions are targeting israel's decision makers and. you all know very well we are just two months before elections general elections and i think it going to be like a very tense and insanely intensive debate in israel about the whole of this

rule jake logic of getting him to come down with the palestinian groups in terms that could have been reached before using violence and force so the whole of this logic is now under question marks here at least in part of the israeli public opinion harry had it with your experience of the people on the ground what is what is the opinion of hamas now after this. or compare before in a dollar. one one thing that has come about as a result of the operation is israel held everything that happened in the gaza strip under the responsibility of a mass you elected hamas hamas regime governs a strip whatever happens that's your problem now historically over the last few months and years have masses not been able to control many of the military operations of the different resistance groups here which is what the gazans call

them and so actually it's been all the time i've been hearing israel's targeting hamas but hamas is no gaza why are they targeting gaza hamas and gaza are not the same thing now speaking today there are massive reconciliation attempts reunification attempts rather excuse me in central gaza city between fatah between hamas between other factions p f l p for example as well so what's happened is seeing is these military operations against israel over the war over the war time were fairly unified they stood together the military groups and the militant groups now after the war they're now getting towards a political position of doing the same thing less less fragmented. i mean it's very interesting this is the second time they've tried to destroy hamas and they have failed i mean to come out of this. well again i think precisely because of that it comes out strengthened.

the reconsolidation efforts which one hopes i've also been given a significant boost by this except that there may be now forces within hamas who feel that they have been so strengthened by the events of this last week in combination with the regional changes that you're on refer to those elements may conclude you know why pay a price for something that we can get for free later on the basis of their assessment that the palestinian authority in the west bank. is disintegrating i would like to make one point about why we're discussing this issue yet again i think i think an absolutely key issue here is israel did was not put in a position of having to account for its actions in the aftermath of operation cast lead in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine and i think that is an

absolutely key reason. right after the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza state with our. sacred laboratory. was able to build a most sophisticated. version of doesn't sound anything. to teach creation why it should care about humans and. this is why you should care only.

liz. liz. please. please please liz please liz .

if you. come across i'm peter lavelle to mind you were talking about gaza after the announcement of a truce. and if you. mean with me falling into the bank you were talking about israel and accountability can

you elaborate more on that and can you put it in the context of the arab spring because we had a lot more voices from the arab world discussing this unlike before. well i think. to a certain extent israel's political impunity has now begun to be arrested and reversed on account of for example the growing egyptian role and israeli fears about how its actions and gaza could have had an impact on its on its relations with egypt but i think you know this this kind of reality where israel can regularly and repeatedly have its way. with the gaza strip knock off school kid playing soccer ear and bomb the home of the family there as if you know this is. this is no more unusual than going for a swim while the world will speak in response to these actions will speak only of

israel's right to self-defense i think unless and until that is addressed we're not going to get out of to get out of the situation there are of course other and broader underlying factors and harry referred to one of those. in terms of the seeds but i do think that impunity and addressing impunity is absolutely vital. to dealing effectively with with not only preventing the next round but should that come to pass. ensuring ensuring that it just does not turn into another slaughter fest you know if you think now that be israelis have to live with hamas it's a political reality that's there and they should start dealing with you do you think we're going to be getting any closer to that. well if you ask my personal views. for several years have been calling and

writing on the need to recognize us as a political movement and start dialogue between israel and hamas about vast majority of the israelis and if i'm not wrong vast majority of the americans and public opinion in the west in general do not appreciate i do not. understand the logic of political islam in the middle east and recognition of hamas is part of this problem as i see it now there are some voices within the israeli public opinion. start questioning this logic of not talking to hamas in this regard. a point that i think is very relevant to our discussion there is a common ground between the right wing parties including the likud and thomas

those parties were and still are against a two state solution. bove against the. they both basically prefer getting into. a long term cease fire then getting to and therefore to solve the basis of the basic problems between israel and the palestinians so there is in one hand a common ground on the other hand there is the obstacle in israel and elsewhere not understanding this movement of political islam ok harry i mean. what is the attitude. after this the end of hostilities here do people look to the hamas being able to continue to govern i mean i guess it gets down to you if the siege is lifted the blockade. well i mean mass is mandate is now six years old that's you

know it's not ideal but generally here people don't want to disrupt that because things have generally been kept going that has been in the last two years a boom in relative terms and reconstruction efforts obviously that will have to be again after this most recent war but. people here some of them are very cynical about hamas they say what is hamastan for us next but the others most i would say simply say israel has put this siege on our territory how can hamas you know they can't jump over the wall and bring stuff into us to develop this place so generally i think people realize that the problem is not hamas even if hamas has a political and policy failings the problem is that the the siege the smallest level and be the occupation at the biggest and obviously most essential level. you know i'm always a cynic about the things i think the whole situation in gaza city is really fine because they continue to colonization of the west bank no one's watching and it's

always look the other way. i think i think for israel one key issue is indeed as you said to be able to continue colonization and. the west bank the other one. is that regardless of how israel may see i think at the end of the day israel's decision makers for a west bank palestinian authority controlled by and a gaza palestinian authority controlled by hamas rather than a unified palestinian palestinian political system i would certainly agree with that now in terms of i would just like to make two observations to what you were said earlier first of all in terms of recognition of hamas and so on while he's. entirely correct to say that that recognition does not yet exist there are in fact

and we've just seen it in the past few days now. and there have been for a while primarily through through the egyptians negotiations between israel and hamas and direct negotiations to be sure but negotiations going on for quite some time and that appear much more serious than any talks that have taken place between between israel and the palestinian leadership. and secondly regarding how mouse's position on a two state settlement has in fact frequently. more or less explicitly stated that it would accept a palestinian state on the nine hundred sixty seven boundaries it's a different formulation emerging from a different approach than that of the p.l.o. leadership in the west bank granted but in effect the political programs and objectives of the of these rival palestinian movements have become in my view

virtually indistinguishable you know what you know what do you think about what we just heard from. well i generally agree with this analysis is there to do. for now at least one decade is rarely right coalition is actually working intensively to dismantle. any possibility for a two state solution. i think it will not be a huge surprise for all of us to see the. very soon maybe from the next couple of days the israeli decision makers the government would start working. in an effort to dismantling the piri. bid for statehood in the us and this is part of what i think the

right wing you misread see. historical opportunity the art of transformation as a historical opportunity to dismantle totally. any possibility for a model of a two state two state solution between israel and palestine unfortunately i would say that. their side of the retore worster in countries especially the united states. the israeli this israelis policy carries on continues. as i see it the project of colonization in the west bank. is going to not only continue but to be intensified in the next coming.

years when one how much is this un bid for the past go ahead. playing alan said i should makers now go ahead. i think i think you hit upon an absolutely critical. factor here which is that you can look at this issue slowly in terms of israel and the palestinians and israel's actions towards the palestinians because the us is an absolutely key and i would argue extraordinarily destructive player in this process and i mean you know if you want to have a proper understanding of american israeli relations you should probably do better . you would probably do better to consult specialists in erotic literature than historians or political scientists like you rob i mean it's you know has achieved simply mind blowing proportions and therefore again picking up from an earlier

point i think it's absolutely essential to restore international law as and un resolutions and so on as a criteria on which this issue was dealt with rather than kind of these more political factors in other words holding israel accountable for its actions in the west bank and on that basis seeking to reverse and ultimately declare illegal it's off the patient of the west bank and gaza strip. here you live in gaza what is to perception of the united states in gaza among people average the perception that i just say is that they know all too well that what israel gets away with doing is because the united states supports and i don't also europe as well europe but obviously europe is the united states put a lot on the wall but yes particularly the united states people know all very well

that if the military aid package is stopped if the u.n. security council cover stopped if the diplomatic international diplomatic cover stopped then this would just end in five minutes so people to. truly aware of that i decided to add one thing here which i think is very important. in-session a legal consensus in the international consensus is that should be a two state settlement however when you live in gaza you start to realize that people's hopes and dreams are not for a two state settlement by the palestinians get back less than half of that has started home i am going to jump in here gentlemen fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests in amman gaza and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching a few darkie see you next time remember. if you.

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