hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle a fragile cease fire hangs over gaza after eight days of destruction and death what did israel actually achieve what about the palestinians on what grounds can hamas and the people of gaza claim victory in this round of the conflict and is this truce merely a pre load to more conflict. to cross-talk the cease fire in gaza i'm joined by your mate while in tel aviv he is head of the herzog center and a faculty member at ben gurion university in gaza we cross to harry fear he's a documentary filmmaker and an activist and in amman we have moon rabbani he is coeditor of the job all right gentlemen crosstalk rosenfeld that means you can jump in anytime you want moving i'd like to go to you first in amman both sides are claiming victory here how can that be. well i think it's typical for all sides to claim victory and it's and it's questionable whether any one emerges victorious

from such a conflict but i think if you look at it in political terms how can i think legitimately legitimately claim significant achievements whereas not i think if you you know and it's not just from us i think it's palestinians across the board including many who simply detest hamas who feel that rather than israel having deterred the palestinian factions in the gaza strip it was in fact they deterred israel from launching a ground invasion and whereas the previous israeli assault on the gaza strip in two thousand and eight two thousand died and you know a lot of israeli cease fire pursuant to which israel basically. maintained that it could strike again will this time there is an agreement under which israel has made clear commitments that it has refused to make before how long it lasts is of course

an entirely different question but i but i do think. you can legitimately claim significant achievements as a result of this agreement your i'm in tel aviv how do you see this who won who lost you agree with marine. well this country is not a zero sum game one punch or the other side he's on the ground. he's right is going. but i don't think that this is the last round between these parties prostration news royal in general of the public opinion he's really frustrated by the outcome of this a days of confrontation and to my. the most important to. emphasize this is that the game has

changed the rule of the game has changed during this. of cycle of violence and the most important changes i see is not in the so-called victory by the not victory by. but the most important factor here is the involvement. in this conflict ok harry how are the people in gaza i mean i've seen a lot of pictures here that they're actually happy it's over and i mean they've suffered a great deal. well the gazans are going through the first hours of ceasefire sixteen's are flying overhead fewer times a day where there are no bombs being dropped so gazans are feeling the relief of no more blood being spilled although people are still dying from injuries from the

last few days sustained over the last few days however those that i've spoken to analysts political analysts analysts and except for very cynical about this is because it's a very simple c.s.i. just says stop firing at each other it really is a very simple cease fire and if we put that in a historical context israel has generally broken most of the cease fires that have existed and so from the palestinian point to this is seen as more of a lot more of a temporary stop to the bloodshed than some sort of massive political diplomatic game it seems like really the target people were killed obviously and we can talk about how precise it was but it was an infrastructure event they destroyed an enormous amount of in infrastructure seemingly has nothing to do with military or any other kind of activity beyond running a city. but i think that's precisely the point or at least part of the point is there was enormous devastation but it was not the devastation that israel set out

to inflict. harm us or at least. it didn't manage to those targets which israeli defense minister. within hours of the beginning of this latest assault claimed he had achieved such as the long range missile capabilities while i generally agree with what. particularly about the cynicism about how long this will last i would like to slightly disagree with him i mean if you look at the agreement first of all there is an agreement second of all it's not just quiet for quiet it in fact commits israel to cease doing things that really has been doing for the past several years in other words palestinians in the gaza strip for example now according to this agreement have the freedom of movement up to and including the boundaries between israel and the gaza strip in other words it is

still in prison largely and in their own land. of course everyone is even though you are. and i don't think i would disagree with that characterization at all but i think there are elements in this agreement particularly if it leads to a genuine easing and eventual lifting of the blockade. that help explain why so many palestinians feel that they came out of this strengthened in an improved situation but at the same time ironically it's precisely because of the point you're a made about israeli public opinion and so on that the next round could be sooner rather than later in terms of israeli politicians particularly. as expected netanyahu was reelected being heavily criticized for basically and being up

at the end of this in that position no better and arguably worse than where he was before it began. did you think netanyahu miscalculated. well i think in general the whole of the security apparatus in the decision making during this operation. was most i would say. very difficult from any perspective of the israeli public opinion the major problem was not. in the eyes of most of the israelis the major problem was not the operations against the palestinian population and the gaza strip in general. the major problem was that there during this eight days there has been like a huge gap between the expectations to. give hamas and the

other palestinian factions a huge blow torie cause hamas will go down to its knees and that they will wave a white flag and the outcome of course you know was so far away from this so i think that yes in the eyes of most of the public opinion of israel it's not only about frustration they're asking no question is difficult questions are targeting israel's decision makers and. you all know very well we are just two months before elections general elections and i think it going to be like a very tense and insanely intensive debate in israel about the whole of this rule cheek or an logic of getting him to come down with the palestinian. groups in terms that could have been reached before using violence and for so

the whole of this logic is now under question marks here at least in part of the israeli public opinion harry had it with your experience of the people on the ground what is what is their opinion of hamas now after this. or compare before in a dollar. one one thing that has come about as a result of the operation is israel held everything that happened in the gaza strip under the responsibility of a mass you elected to mass. regime governs a strip whatever happens that's your problem now historically over the last few months and years have masses not been able to control many of the military operations of the different resistance groups here which is what the gazans call them and so actually it's been all the time i've been hearing israel's targeting hamas but hamas is no gaza why are they targeting gaza hamas and gaza are not the same thing now speaking today there are massive reconciliation at reunification

attempts rather excuse me in central gaza city between fatah between hamas between other factions p f l p for example as well so what's happened is seeing is these military operations against israel over the wall over the water fairly unified they stood together the military groups and the the militant groups now after the war they're now getting towards a political position of doing the same thing less less fragmented. i mean it's very interesting this is the second time they've tried to destroy him so they have failed i mean to come out of this. well again i think precisely because of that it comes out strengthened and. reconsider which one hopes i've also been given a significant boost by this except that there may be now forces within hamas who

feel that they have been so strengthened by the events of this last week in combination with the regional changes refer to those elements may conclude you know why pay a price for something that we can get for free later on the basis of their assessment that the palestinian authority in the west bank. is disintegrating i would like to make one point about why we're discussing this issue yet again i think i think an absolutely key issue here is israel was not put in a position of having to account for its actions in the aftermath of operation cast lead in two thousand and two thousand and nine and i think that is an absolutely key reason. right after the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza stay with our.

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if you. crossed off on peter lavelle to mind you were talking about gaza after the announcement of the truce. if you. want to make you were talking about israel and accountability can you elaborate more on that and can you put it in the context of the arab spring because we had a lot more voices from the arab world discussing this unlike before. well i think.

to a certain extent israel's political impunity has now begun to be arrested and reversed on account of for example the growing egyptian role and israeli fears about how its actions and gaza could have had an impact on its on its relations with egypt but i think you know this this kind of reality where israel regularly and repeatedly have its way. with the gaza strip knock off school kid playing soccer here and the home of the family there as a you know this is. this is no more unusual than going for a swim while the world will speak in response to these actions will speak only of israel's right to self-defense i think unless and until that is addressed we're not going to get out of to get out of the situation there are of course other broader underlying. it is and harry referred to one of those. in terms of the seeds but i

do think that impunity and addressing impunity is absolutely vital. to dealing effectively with with not only preventing the next round but should that come to pass. ensuring ensuring that it just does not turn into another slaughter fest you're in do you do you think now that the israelis have to live with hamas it's a political reality that's there and they should start dealing with you do you think we're going to be getting any closer to that. well if you ask my personal views. for several years have been calling and writing on the need to recognize as a political movement to start dialogue between israel and hamas about vast majority of the israelis and if i'm not wrong vast majority of the americans and

public opinion in the west in general do not appreciate and do not. understand the logic of political islam in the middle east. recognition of hamas is part of this problem as i see it now there are some voices within the israeli public opinion. start questioning this logic of not talking to hamas in this regard. a point that i think is very relevant to our discussion there is a common ground between the right wing parties including the likud and hamas those parties were and still are against the two state solution. bove against the. they both basically

prefer getting into. a long term cease fire then getting to and therefore to solve the basis of the the basic problems between israel and the palestinians so there is in one hand a common ground on the other hand there is the obstacle in israel and elsewhere of not understanding this movement of political islam ok harry i mean. what is the attitude. after this the end of hostilities here do people look to the hamas to being able to continue to govern i mean i guess it gets down to you if the siege is lifted the blockade. well i mean mass is mandate is now six years old that's you know it's not ideal but generally here people don't want to disrupt that because things have generally been kept going that has been in the last two years a boom in relative terms and reconstruction efforts obviously that will have to be

again after this most recent war but. people here some of them are very cynical about how much they said what is hamastan for us next but the others most i would say simply say israel has put this siege on our territory how can hamas you know they can't jump over the wall and bring stuff into us to develop this place so generally i think people realize that the problem is not hamas even if hamas has a political and policy failings but the problem is that the the siege the smallest level and be the occupation at the biggest and obviously most essential level. you know i'm always a cynic about these things i think the whole situation in gaza city is really fine because they continue to colonization of the west bank no one's watching and it's always look the other way. i think i think for israel one key issue is indeed as you said to be able to continue colonization creeping on the

west bank the other one. is that regardless of how israel may see i think at the end of the day israel's decision makers prefer a west bank palestinian authority controlled by and a gaza palestinian authority controlled by hamas rather than a unified palestinian palestinian political system i would certainly agree with that now in terms of would just like to make two observations to what really are first of all in terms of recognition and so on while he. entirely correct to say that that recognition does not yet exist there are in fact and we've just seen it in the past few days now. and there have been for a while primarily through through the egyptians negotiations between israel and hamas and direct negotiations to be sure but negotiations going on for quite some

time and that appear much more serious than any talks that have taken place between between israel and the palestinian leadership. and secondly regarding how mouse's position on a two state settlement and has in fact frequently. more or less explicitly stated that it would accept a palestinian state on the nine hundred sixty seven boundaries it's a different formulation emerging from a different approach than that of the p.l.o. leadership in the west bank granted but in effect the political programs and objectives of the of these rival palestinian movements have become in my view virtually indistinguishable you know what you know what do you think about what we just heard from moving. well i in general i agree with this analysis i would there to do. for now at least

one decade. is rarely right coalition is actually working intensively to dismantle. any possibility for a two state solution. i think it will not be a huge surprise for all of us to see the. very soon maybe from the next couple of days the israeli decision makers the government would start working. in an effort to dismantling the pier a. bid for statehood in the us and this is part of what i feel the right wing you misread see. historical opportunity the arab transformation is a historical opportunity to dismantle totally. any

possibility for a model of a two state two state solution between israel and palestine and fortunately i would say that. side of the retore you were stern countries especially the united states. the israeli this israelis policy carries on continues. as i see it the project of colonization in the west bank. is going to not only continue but to be intensified in the next coming. years what how much is this un bid for the past go ahead. playing well i don't want to say that i should makers now go ahead. i think i think you hit upon an

absolutely critical. factor here which is that you can look at this issue in terms of israel and the palestinians and israel's actions towards the palestinians because the us is an absolutely key and i would argue extraordinarily destructive player in this process and i mean you know if you want to have a proper understanding of american israeli relations you should probably do better . you would probably do better to consult specialists in erotic literature than historians or political scientists like you rob i mean it's you know it has achieved simply mind blowing proportions and therefore again picking up from an earlier point i think it's absolutely essential to restore international law. and un resolutions and so on as

a criteria on which this issue was dealt with rather than kind of these more political factors in other words holding israel accountable for its actions in the west bank and on that basis seeking to reverse and ultimately declare illegal it's off the patient of the west bank and gaza strip. where you live in gaza what is to perception of the united states in gaza among people average the perception that i just say it is that they know all too well that what israel gets away with doing is because the united states supports i don't also europe as well you have got a bit of a c. in europe is the united states put a little on the wild yes particularly the united states people know all very well that if the ministry a package is stopped if the u.n. security council cover stopped if the diplomatic international diplomatic cover stopped then this would just end in five minutes so people to. truly aware of that

i decided to add one thing here which i think is very important. the legal consensus in the international consensus is that should be a two state settlement however when you live in gaza you start to realize that people's hopes and dreams are not for a two state settlement by the palestinians get back less than half of the historic homes i am going to tell right here tell me fascinating discussion many thanks indeed mike us in amman gaza and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching if you don't see next time remember. any. mission. couldn't take three months for charges free. range month

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