by a qualified maybe already of people i think this european union should simply accept this a for us here at the open and feel we may as sort of see i mean from a different perspective our historians am that being several waves of separatism. which actually. have been produced through the twentieth century after the end of the war after cycle where war after eighty nine i mean we actually had to believe that he's thirty had called to an end but he story continues and goes on i'm from tears are not always a stable not always the same christian it's a really good point i mean over the centuries even in europe we have more and more countries i mean why stop the process. no i told them to agree peter with what antony said well i just want to go i just want to go ahead yeah i know that my point is that in a free empire i was not talking about a european nation we're talking about

a federal union which we which will be something like empire has been in the past in a modern empire you need to let people come to you by attraction and not by all pression and that's the key issue so of course people can make their choice and they have i mean we can have a european federation with fifty states it's just getting more complicated it's not building a problem for the democracy that is my point ok tony is the european union democratic i mean why do some people want to leave because i mean is it better to have your own nation state i think actually there is an understatement of the complexity of the situation for example it's quite clear that when poles were taken the majority of people in britain itself were totally opposed to the iraqi war and yet tony blair prime minister at that time took the country into war the same thing would apply in scotland and i think you know particularly here in ireland where we have had a conflict for about thirty forty years which to some degree still continues even

this week we have had several riots in belfast with many many police men injured political offices burned dein the situation is much more complicated than people generally believe europe itself i do not think is democratic because we continually hear for example that in germany the majority of german people are not in favor of germany building a greece so we get politicians constantly overruling the people of arizona if you take for example scotland as a specific example i would suggest there that the people of scotland culturally totally separate from the people of england it's not only the political level but the savings are made in westminster which are not accepted by the people of scotland and i think one has to acknowledge that not only within britain. including scotland northern ireland wales but particularly in europe itself if you take for example the baltic states three small countries that have a smaller population in total in ireland and yet the european union favored their

total separation from the soviet union and supported them but i think that there's a degree of high-pockets see it off in my opinion simply as dictated by the strategic interest all of the of the european major parts such as germany britain or the united states so i think we have to look at the reality of the situation it's not the actual world where we're living in a pure democracy where people say oh ground freedom to everyone there's total high-pockets say and contradictions throughout the world at the moment with relation to the formation of small nation states because they want to let's look at spain i mean why should the richest part of spain pay for the rest of the country if they want to be on their own. well we put the question another way around the why why don't they feel they have to share their solidarity with other parts of the country i mean you can reproduce the argument. within these stateless nations as well and the poorest part of catalonia i mean sustained by the roots aspire of petroleum i think this is part to partially a wishful thinking i mean and it has to do with the legitimisation of the political

system on the white hands and with a shot at radicalization of nationalist demands on the other hand which actually can not to be separated from the presence of course those is that are particularly affected by konami overall economic crisis and well what i really i'm really skeptical about the possibilities of determination to short term or to solve the real problems of people from that alone for a long leash on the basque country i think that normative problem we have to face is that how to stop these which is the barrier or what is the worry or a referendum and the people's way has to sort of parsing rather to legitimize the creation of a new nation state i mean it is respect that totally agree with tony and i think they were probably at this summit at the very nature and it has to continue to be to a critique the real functioning of some europeans to do shows is still quite far from

real democracy and many people free in europe still believe that. is a kind of call for the regime of a lose cause o.c.a. tional. ally on this of nation states that negotiates and barry gains in are they to achieve sometimes percentages of power within the european union that this rather than nothing but i think that the process of for the recession from below should be accompanied by a process for all of for that of these asian from the globe ok question i mean let's take a look at the euros i mean once you're in it it's a straight jacket you can't get at it you don't have much control over your economy that's one of the complaints. well that's a false complaint you have to have to see what is your currency and what is the economy you have to see the benchmark we just i had had a report yesterday in german t.v. that showed how many countries in the european union are competing to each other along with the tax system so i have to tell you again that i still agree with both

of my other guests in that in that broadcast because i am totally for a european democracy but i'm a representative of a civil society who says there is no real democracy yet but if you see the way that we are going the last sixty years we are. as i said an empire of peace of abstraction people come and people don't go the only people that has so far had a problem with it is maybe greenland and that is that is an example really out of history so something has to be clear at the moment we talking about a european european union that have been tremendously successful one even the noble prize for peace and then we have to get the next step which is a real deep european democracy then if you know where your money goes you will bail out the other countries and then of course you have a leadership that kemah posed to some public opinion such as in germany they want the death model i mean chris is. just

a creature. they have been. for the euro we have well you're a leader you're nearly finished it's stagnant tony it's stagnant it doesn't have much better future ok go ahead. well i would actually be in favor of the european union i'm not a low i believe and you know the private the separate development the various ethnic groups throughout europe and i dress particular situation here in ireland separatist movements do not necessarily equate with isolationist policies and i mean i would be a very strong european and a low i would argue strongly and support the people of scotland for their independent parliament it does not mean and it does not follow that the people of scotland want to be totally isolated from the european union i think the economic realities that we live under forced us to live together and cooperate because i know for sure that i mean our major competitor i always focus on america i don't think america is satisfied with the united europe and i mean i think the various

lessons we've learned over the last number of years would suggest that america in many ways undermines the idea of united europe because a united europe potentially a number of years will be a stronger economic unit than the united states when we'll see what you think about that because the outlook isn't good the economic reality you're going to raise from here i know a lot of them is their borders of europe they are throughout the world i mean you have recessions internationally so i don't think we should focus on the situation in europe and say oh it's all doom and gloom i'm actually very very hopeful of a bright future a strong economic europe. ok we're going to greenwood on that one there i'd gentleman we're going to go to a story go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on separatism stay with our. education system. and.

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a lot of people will say is that they lost more and more of their freedoms to make decisions about their economies civil society sick cetera. well i totally disagree to that i mean of course the european union has to be based on subsidy or it's a principle which means that the decisions are made close as possible to the citizens on the other hand you know is an indication is that the case song truth is that the case let me finish all right go ahead yeah yeah of course about dontcha think that . in a case that a federal union existed with a federal strong budget that the sovereignty of the european citizens overall would be better than we have it now in that crisis we are all victims at the moment because we do not have a fully fledged clearly question is the people who join to create something like the united states yeah i mean they are going to they join it to create a united states of europe that has to be discussed i'm not saying yes there is no

alternative to that and if they don't want to be. bound to a federal union or european union or state of the united states of europe they can of course leave or negotiate the treaties short ok tony i mean i'm not saying the united states of europe is a bad idea but the people sign up for it. i think in ireland initially many many people were reluctant to both north and scythe in this country and we joined the european union but i think very very quickly people realized the economic benefits you know we've essentially got you know free trade across borders and i think one of the most important things is that when we're speaking about the various you know groups ethnic groups of people around europe i don't see that anyone has lost their ethnic identity their cultural identity and certainly if anything in ireland today the cultural identity of people be stronger since we joined the european union so i mean i don't think people here are you know i reluctantly members i think they realize that in the global economy that we have today we have no choice but to work

together in cooperation federalism even in ireland today we have still got our two countries but i would ultimately say that we will have a federal solution here within our own because we don't have any actual border any longer and i go from here to england there's no border to go from here to france of no border and i think it won't be always must remember is that people of europe do not want world war three in europe we have much more in common with each other and to work with each other for the future of our children than to argue over minor points of national difference tony do you think the possibility of conflict is in europe today i mean i hear this argument all the time. yeah i mean i mean i i think you know as we move forward i mean i you know i lived in russia for a number of years and during the cold war period i think the majority of european people for the wrong reasons feared russia and russians possibly feared the people of europe but now i look we do have these open borders i think we have a greater unity and i think that when we look at the global picture i think that

other nations other states other global states are actually quite envious of our potential unity and so i think the actual chance of any future war in europe is greatly reduced and could leverage if they're going to keep pressing this point here i mean did in the european union the people sign up for it when they joined it because it's turning out to be a different project now. what i would say is that i mean it's and i was probably at the to see europe as a further a problem but the problem is that there are as many for there are probably as many for mothers as for there are countries in the world that's where our quality so far is we have to define our model for the isma well that is for as much as to be based on the existing nation states or on the other whether we have to actually. call this phase of historic a nation state i do think a lot of new forms of social and political organization and i think in this respect . one thing i hate is that the night there was a way for optimism and i call it the way it's. so very will be actually led

from would be attacked from below from and from have all but so that nature stave to leave disappear i would rather leave. this nations and regions and starr. would have a new place in a unified europe i think now many people in the catalonia scott langley country or in flanders have simply realize is that you need the states in order to join the club and the club is defined by several rules and these rules are quiet. clear and simple for you and you know is a causal ca tional policy where the states have to to made war where do they have to to make power and everything is decided on the top and not from below and they see in this respect i actually enjoy my my partner's view for the european union is

still is a fact that it was characterized by the starting democracy a democratic deficit which means. i'd like to have a domestic process for the future i don't really think there is going to be a conflict there's going to be an as the conflict but what i really thing is that i find a result the paradoxical final result of this wave or of this period of going to crisis could be the strengthening of the nation state and i think it will be a step backward and not a step for worse ok a lot of people say the solution for europe's problems is more europe ok but a lot of people on the ground are saying enough europe how do you square the circle well you need leadership of course the anxiety tells you i go back to the to the place where i feel comfortable the comfort zone is the nation state so far of course you have to ensure that there is a solution with more europe and not even more trouble i strongly believe in an economic crisis if america lentil and. the names of the leaders are

say we need to more coordinate these things people would agree and you make policy by policy you see that north africa immigration is not an italian problem so you don't make a national competence but european you see that foreign policy cannot be national nationally let's say steer only but european wide and step by step people will understand that this solution is more europe ok in return how do you explain people in spain for example when there's fifty percent unemployment for young people you need more europe. well you know i think if the spanish people look at the successful nations of europe that's where they where they have to take their model from obviously both greece portugal and i would say to be uncertain as well they need i mean i remember a lot of these countries that worked in them i think they need to reform their

economies particularly greek economy a very very familiar with it and the situation there is disastrous and they do need in greece more european standard and it may well be a better pill for the swallow but they are going to have to swallow that pill i mean we have had to compromise in ireland over many many things and i think it's been for our benefit we have had no riots in the streets here over austerity we have had a financial crisis and we're just getting all of that we know that if we are to succeed we have to learn to compete economically with the major countries of europe whether it's germany italy france britain and i i have no regrets in saying and i don't feel like losing any of my nice solid answer day by suggesting that we become more european but the one thing i think that we do always need to make sure of is that the regions the smaller regions of independent states or individual states need to have correct representation and i don't think one can assume for one moment that westminster london can rule for the people of scotland the people of scotland

need to have their own assembly the people of wales need to have their own assembly and they need to have a much much greater sense of autonomy then takes into the gray areas of foreign policy and the military situation these are the real issues to be decided in the future but i do believe that those countries in europe that have field should not be saddled with failure they should try and take the lessons. from the more successful states of europe because they do want to jump in on their own and i ask all of you about how globalization is affected this here because everyone says bigger is better. we look at trading blocks and what not. here. you may where you may have many smaller is not only nicer but better i mean smaller states like switzerland like. monaco are extremely rich and prosperous i mean what they really think is that will lack of ferrous strong leadership that's had severe i've already been pointed out but second we need

a project within we need to procure that may create an illusion that may create a perspective work to go for most of the people we need a kind of a strong definition of entity and i think one of the problems of european entity is that this compose is made up of so very different things and very different elements and he started in chorus that it's very difficult to find a common other or even a common set of values and i think i mean it well it looks at the symbols that had been the better lot by the european union but most of these symbols are extremely weak i mean they are unable to create passion to create unable to create. feelings so to speak emotions and emotions are very important for maintenance and for the long term. survival of politics and of political communities i have this respect i mean ethnic nationalism are having now yannis of the peripheries or. we will always

take the lead because they have a stronger. weapon so to speak they have a stronger character if you're originally going to you don't go to go it's go back to christian in berlin again last year here what about that identity issue european identity i think is a really interesting point. it's a very difficult point peter as well i mean of course i always say i can be very annoyed bought into some dark oberlin and i can be a german and not going to be europe or the european it's called we are together for a common good soul what's the exclusion of it i can i can have a european identity and i need to deal with we have one everyone who works abroad sees that how many much more we have to learn until we are european and of course our kids should have the opportunity to be really european like they're swimming in a pool and of course then it must be a european identity i'm not sure if we should compare this to that let's say

nationalistic reading nationalistic bound to an army bound to a football team type of nationalism identity like we had it in our nation states let's keep that for the nation states why are we not looking too forward to a future government we very rarely if you don't apologise it is gentlemen thank you very much for us fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests in brussels belfast and in munich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the next time and remember prosperity. and. you can. download the official application so choose your language stream quality and

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oh who claim. looters that takes your breath away few tourists travel to these parts no prepackaged comfort but the joy of the wild is guaranteed guinea's a zoology professor works in the u.s. and travels to these remote areas in washington every summer as he says he confines untouched landscapes like this anywhere else in the world. we're going off the list below sea line if i go wrong. and surprise you you'll go to the water and so we did. one animal whose par you definitely wouldn't want to shake here is the brown bear you can literally spot agrees the here by every small

river. where the bears are fishing but they have a very concise well to be able to see that we have to keep an eye away down at him and the distance between them and also told i could be dangerous so we're going just a shell but the record. and quiet we went but the wind was not on our side and the bear got away another local resident to haiti's piece being disturbed here is this howlers sea eagle it has a wingspan of two and a half meters it nessa only here in washes far east because of the bundles of salmon and seagulls which feed the giant bird in his studies if gainey focuses on birds so he took me to one of his favorite places here the island it has the biggest colony of seagulls in the region. the climb back up was tough but the prize

was worth it. maybe for the wildlife here the lack of physical resists for the better but when you stand on top of phenomenal and like this you just cantelupe wanting to share the beauty. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harkin.