there is wide agreement that the sovereignty of speech must be respected but what about the growing issue of self-determination if a population wants to create their own state why should. any. cross talk to modern nation state i'm joined by christian winning in berlin he is the secretary general of the union of european federalists in belfast we have anthony rosado he is a political commentator and former irish political activist and in munich we crossed the jose newness he is a professor of the department of modern american history at the university of santiago de compostela all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want christian if i go to you first so we're returning to an age of nationalism a new nationalism considering what's going over going on in europe we're talking about the separatism that we see the so-called vulcanization of europe and all over the wall we have these strivings but i believe that we are getting into the

consulate days and of especially the european union as as the other regions in the world see they can't cope together. there are only two or three states but they have to be a real region to count in the world on a global scale ok so that means everything's fine in the european union. well everything's fine so far in the european union to know that we have a development going through at the moment we have to overcome a crisis we have separatist movements but they all agree that we have to solve the crisis on the european federal level and i think we'll hold onto that for a while tony what do you think about that is there agreement. well i would disagree with relates to both britain and ireland for example in scotland at the moment is not quite clear what the separate us what with relation to foreign policy and in particular the security policies that britain is associated with because as you may well know britain has its polarised fleet. in scotland itself and the majority of

scottish people by tradition would be left wing and are certainly not you know party to the british foreign policy at the moment so there's a serious political issue there ok jose what do you think about this i mean where is the continent going is it going to get stronger and stronger because it looks like there's a lot of people are not very happy well here's where this may be and the lies from their normative point of view or for and it's already open a view i mean for a normative there is nothing against the creation of a new nation states provided that a majority of folks relation with that i mean if they and depend this referendum is sanctioned by a qualified majority of people i think this european union should simply accept is a from theoretical point of view we may as sort of see i mean from the front of respect of our historians am that there has been several waves of separatism yet which actually. have been produced through the twentieth century after the end of world war after the second world war after

eighty nine i mean we actually had to believe that history had come to an end but he story continues and goes on i'm from tears are not it always sustainable not always the same christian that's a really good point i mean over the centuries even in europe we have more and more countries i mean why stop the process. no i told him to agree peter with what antony said well i just want to give you guys i just want to go ahead yeah i know that my point is that in a free empire i we're not talking about a european nation we're talking about a federal union which we which will be something like empire has been in the past in a modern empire you need to let people come to you by attraction and not by all pression and that's the key issue so of course people can make their choice and they have i mean we can have a european federation with fifty states it's just getting more complicated it's not building a problem for the democracy that is my point ok tony is the european union democratic

i mean why do some people want to leave because i mean it's not better to have your own nation state i think actually there are a number statement of the complexity of the situation for example it's quite clear that when poles were taken the majority of people in britain itself were totally opposed to the iraqi war and yet tony blair prime minister that time took the country into war the same thing would apply in scotland and i think you know particularly here in ireland where we have had a conflict for about thirty forty years which to some degree still continues even this week we have had several riots in belfast with many many policemen injured political offices burned dein the situation is much more more complicated than people generally believe europe itself i do not think is democratic because we continually hear for example that in germany the majority of german people are not in favor of germany building a greece so we get politicians constantly overruling the people of arizona if you

take for example scotland as a specific example i would suggest there that the people of scotland culturally totally separate from the people of england not only of the political level but the savings are made in westminster which are not accepted by the people of scotland and i think one has to acknowledge that not only within britain. including scotland northern ireland wales but particularly in europe itself if you take for example the baltic states three small countries that have a smaller population in total in ireland and yet the european union favored their total separation from the soviet union and supported them but i think that there's a degree of high-pockets say it off in my opinion simply is dictated by the strategic interest all of the other the european major parcels germany britain or the united states so i think we have to look at the reality of the situation it's not the actual world where we're living in a pure democracy where people say oh grant freedom to everyone there's total

high-pockets say and contradictions throughout the world at the moment with relation to the formation of small nation states because they want to let's look at spain i mean why should the richest part of spain pay for the rest of the country if they want to be on their own. well we put a question another way around the way why don't they feel they have to share their story directly with other parts of the country i mean you can reproduce the argument. within these nations as well and the poorest part of catalonia i mean sustained by the roots aspire of catalonia i think this is part to partially a wishful thinking i mean and it has to do with the legitimisation of the political system on the white hands and with a shot at radicalization of nationalist demands on the other hand which actually can not to be separated from the presence of course those is that are particularly affected by konami our economic crisis and well what i really i'm

really skeptical about the possibilities of determination to short term or to solve the real problems of people from get the loan from the legion from the basque country i think that normative problem we have to face is that how to stop leash which is the barrier or what is the worry or a referendum. and the people's way has to sort of parsing rather to legitimize the creation of a new nation state i mean it is respect that totally agree with tony and i think they were probably at this inequality by nature and it has to continue to be to more critique the real functioning of some europeans to do is still quite far from a real democracy and many people free in durham still believe that your brand is a kind of call for the regime of a loose cause o.c.a. tional. alliance of nation states that negotiates and back again in our day to achieve sometimes percentages of power within europe and

you know that despair that are nothing but i think that the process of for the recession from below should be accompanied by a process for all of for that all these asian from the globe ok christian i mean let's take a look at the euros i mean once you're in it it's a straight jacket you can't get at it you don't have much control over your economy that's one of the complaints. well that's a false complaint you have to have to see what is your currency and what is the economy you have to see the benchmark we just i had had a report yesterday in german t.v. that showed how many countries in the european union are competing to each other along with the tax system so i have to tell you again that i still agree with both of my other guests in that in that broadcast because i am totally for a european democracy but i'm a representative of a civil society who says there is no real democracy yet but if you see the way that we are going the last sixty years we are. as i said an empire of peace traction

people come and people don't go or the only people that has so far had a problem with it is maybe greenland and that is that is an example really out of history so something has to be clear at the moment we talking about a european european union that have been tremendously successful one even the noble prize for peace and then we have to get the next step which is a real good european democracy then if you know where your money goes you will bail out the other countries and then of course you have a leadership that kemah posed to some public opinion such as in germany they want to death i mean. they have been. for the euro we have well you're really nearly forgotten it it's stagnant tony it's stagnant it doesn't have much better yet you're ok go ahead. well i would actually be in favor of the european union i'm not a low i believe and you know the private the separate development the various ethnic groups throughout europe and i dress particular situation here in ireland

separatist movements do not necessarily equate with isolationist policies and i mean i would be a very strong european and a low i would argue strongly and support the people of scotland for their independent parliament it does not mean and it does not follow that the people of scotland want to be totally isolated from the european union i think the economic realities that we live under forced us to live together and cooperate because i know for sure that i mean our major competitor i always focus on america i don't think america is satisfied with the united europe and i mean i think the various lessons we've learned over the last number of years would suggest that america in many ways undermines the idea of united europe because a united europe potentially a number of years will be a stronger economic unit than the united states when we'll see what you think about that because the outlook isn't good the economic reality if you're going to be raising here are not going to diminish their borders of europe they are throughout

the world i mean you have recessions internationally so i don't think we should focus on the situation in europe and say oh it's all doom and gloom i'm actually very very hopeful of a bright future a strong economic europe. ok we're going to greenwood on that when there are gentlemen we're going to get away sorry you got to a short break and after that show broke will continue our discussion on separatism stay with us. and if you. still. want to. sleep well with. science technology innovation all the list i'm elements from around russia we've got the future covered. easy to see. destruction without the see.

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welcome back to crossfire van about to remind you we're talking about separatism. ok christian and i go back to you in berlin you're the general secretary of the union of european federalists when people joined the european union where they were joining a federal union and people because you know what a lot of people will say is that they lost more and more of their freedoms to make decisions about their economies civil society six cetera well i totally disagree to that i mean of course the european union has to be based on subsidy or it's a principle which means that the decisions are made close as possible to the citizens

on the other hand the only is that in that case is that the case song she would say is that the case let me finish all right go ahead yeah yeah of course about dontcha think that. in a case that a federal union existed it with a federal strong budget that the sovereignty of the european citizens overall would be better than we have now in that crisis we are all victims at the moment because we do not have a fully fledged my prescription my clear my question is that people join to create something like the united states yeah i mean they are going to they join it to create a united states of europe that has to be discussed i'm sorry i'm saying yes there is no alternative to that and if they don't want to be. bound to a federal union or european union or a state of the united states of europe they can of course leave or negotiate the treaties short ok took tony i mean i'm not saying the united states of europe is

a bad idea but the people sign up for it. i think in ireland initially many many people were reluctant to both north and so i thought in this country when we joined the european union but i think very very quickly people realized the economic benefits you know we've essentially got you know free trade across borders and i think one of the most important things is that when we're speaking about the various you know groups ethnic groups of people around europe i don't see that anyone has lost their ethnic identity their cultural identity and certainly if anything in ireland today the cultural identity of people be stronger since we joined the european union so i mean i don't think people here are reluctant members i think they realize that in the global economy that we have today we have no choice but to work together in cooperation federalism even in ireland today we have still got our two countries but i would ultimately say that we will have a federal solution here within our own because we don't have any actual border any longer and if i go from here to england there's no border to go from here to france is no border and i think it won't be always must remember is that people of europe

do not want world war three in europe we have much more in common with each other and to work with each other for the future of our children to argue over minor points of national difference tony d. what do you think the possibility of conflict is in europe today i mean i hear this argument all the time. yeah i mean i mean i i think you know as we move forward i mean you know i lived in russia for a number of years and during the cold war period i think the majority of european people for the wrong reasons feared russia and russians possibly feared the people of europe but now i look we do have these open borders i think we have a greater unity and i think that when we look at the global picture i think that other nations other states other global states are actually quite envious of our potential unity and so i think the actual chance of any future war in europe is greatly reduced and could we reduce there are going to keep pressing this point here i mean did in the european union the people sign up for it when they joined it

because it's turning out to be a different project now. what i would say is that i mean it's a nice for you to see europe as a further a problem but the problem is that there are as many for there are probably as many for mothers as for there are countries in the world that's for quality so far as we have to define our model for them is well that is for as much as to be based on the existing nation states or on the other whether we have to actually. call this phase of historic a nation state i do think a lot of new forms of social and political organization and i think in this respect . one thing i hate is that the ninety's i was away for optimism and i call it the way it's. so very will be actually led from would be attack it from below from and from the world so that nature stable as it were a to leave disappear i would rather leave. stateless nations and regions and starr . would have a new place in

a unified europe i think now many people in the catalonia scott the language country or in flanders have simply realize is that you need the states in order to join the club and the club is defined by several rules and these rules are quiet. clear and simple for you and you know is a causal ca tional policy where the states have to to made war where do they have to to make power and everything is decided on the top and not from below and they see in this respect i actually enjoy my my partner's view for the european union is still is a fact that it was kind of to arise when a certain democracy is democratic deficit which means. i'd like to have a domestic process for the future i don't really think there is going to be a conflict there's going to be an at the conflict but what i really thing is that i find a result a paradoxical find

a result of this wave or of this period of going to be crisis could be the strengthening of the nation state and i think it will be a step backward and not a step forward ok i mean a lot of people say the solution for europe's problems is more europe ok but a lot of people on the ground are saying enough europe how do you square the circle well you need leadership of course the anxiety tells you i go back to the place where i feel comfortable the comfort zone is the nation state so far of course you have to show that there is a solution with more europe and not even more trouble i strongly believe in an economic crisis if america lentil on how all of the names of the leaders are say we need to more coordinated these things people would agree and you make policy by policy you see that north africa immigration is not an italian problem so you don't make a national competence about european you see that foreign policy cannot be national

nationally let's say steer only but european wide and step by step people will understand that this solution is more europe ok in return how do you explain people in spain for example when there's fifty percent unemployment for young people the you need more europe. well you know i think if the spanish people look at the successful nations of europe that's where they where they have to take their model from obviously both greece portugal and i would say speed and certainly as well they need i mean i am familiar with all of these companies i've worked in them i think they need do need to reform their economies particularly greek economy a very very familiar with it and the situation there is disastrous and they do need in greece more european standard and it may well be a better pill for the swallow but they are going to have to swallow that pill i mean we have had to compromise in ireland over many many things and i think it's been for our benefit we have had no riots in the streets here over austerity we

have had a financial crisis and we're just getting all of that we know that if we are to succeed we have to learn to compete economically with the major countries of europe whether it's germany italy france britain and i i have no regrets in saying and i don't feel like losing any of my nice solid density by suggesting that we become more european but the one thing i think that we do always need to make sure of is that the regions the smaller regions of independent states or individual states need to have correct representation and i don't think one can assume for one moment that westminster london can rule for the people of scotland and the people of scotland need to have their own assembly the people of wales need to have their own assembly and they need to have a much much greater sense of autonomy then takes into the gray areas of foreign policy and the military situation these are the real issues to be decided in the future but i do believe that those countries in europe that have field should not

be satisfied with failure they should try and take the lessons. from the more successful states of europe because if you want to jump in on that i mean i can i ask all of you about how globalization is affected this here because everyone says bigger is better. we look at trading blocks and what not here. you may you may have many smaller is not all united but better i mean smaller states like switzerland like. monaco are extremely rich and prosperous and there what they really think is that will lack of ferrous strong leadership that's has been already been pointed out but second we need a project within we need appropriate may create an illusion that may create a perspective work to go for most of the people we need a kind of a strong definition of the entity and i think one of the problems of european entity is that this compose is made up of so very different things and very

different elements and historical roots in chorus that it's very difficult to find a common other or even a common set of values and i think i mean it well it looks at the symbols that had been the boat by the european union but most of these symbols are extremely weak i mean they are unable to create passion to create unable to create. feelings so to speak emotions and emotions are very important for maintenance and for the long term. survival of politics and of political communities i have this respect i mean ethnic nationalism are having now yannis of the peripheries or. we will always take the lead because they have a stronger. weapon so to speak they have a stronger energy you're originally going to you don't know if you've got to go back to prison in berlin again last year here what about that i didn't the issue european identity i think is a really interesting point. it's

a very difficult point peter as well i mean of course i always say i can be bavarian or bottom goods and i can be a german and i can to be europe or european it's called we are together for a common good soul what's the exclusion of it i can i can have a european identity and i need to deal with we have one everyone who works abroad sees that how many much more we have to learn until we are european and of course our kids should have the opportunity to be really european like they're swimming in a pool and of course then it must be a european identity i'm not sure if we should compare this to that let's say nationalistic reading nationalistic bound to an army bound to a football team type of nationalism identity like we had it in our nation states let's keep that for the nation states why are we not looking too forward to a future government we very rarely if you don't apologise it is gentlemen thank you

very much for us fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests in brussels belfast and in munich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the phoenix time and remember prosperity. and. you can. sometimes see the story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you don't. charge is a big issue. claim

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