anding up to iran and so i would not agree with the. you know saying that the shiites in iraq are somewhat more showed than the or because. you know they do have a history of being having fought you know the main rank and file of the iraqi army during the the war with iran was basically a shiite or a me and this is also true today so while there is a certain affinity towards iran in iraq today the. iraqis were to a certain extent more willing to compromise with the americans and with the worst but this this policy by the us has effectively caused the shiites throughout the middle east to become alienated and to join the certain axis of resistance to western interests and what do you think about that axis against western interests. while one blame the united states for the sectarian divisions they have existed in the middle east for hundreds of years and they were

exacerbated by the iranian revolution you have a theocracy in iran that has tried to shape the region according to its own interests and a lot of the sunni states resent this and of course the united states is allied with a lot of them including saudi arabia but that's different than just saying the u.s. created this situation there are alliances the u.s. remains committed to preventing a nuclear armed iran and this is a regional and global issue such as not so black and white ok josh could use a good idea for the united states to be so closely aligned with saudi arabia as events unfold in the region. well it's not it's a rather. it's a very it's a confusing alliance and i think it's confusing for many americans because. the united states claims that it wants separation of church and state in the world affairs and it's fro secularism and here we have allied ourselves with one hobby

country that pumps out the religious doctrines and supports schooling for wallabies for islamic schools and so it does make a very strange alliance but we want oil and we want bases in the in the persian gulf and the arab gulf and we want to support. saudi arabia so that that is what we have and we saw in bahrain when our principles came up against our national security interests in other words supporting democracy which would be supporting the shiites in bahrain. we have done it only rhetorical but in actuality we've supported the monarchy and we've supported. the counter democratic forces if you will because those are the ones who are allied with and that helps us retain our interests national security interests in the gulf when moving how does that look in the region i mean if the u.s. and saudi arabia are so aligned does that empower the the shia. it causes a great deal of animosity on part of the shiites towards the us and this has been the case. since even before the iranian revolution because the us has always been

supportive of these dictatorial regimes which effectively used to repress the show its beate in iraq saddam pre. before the one nine hundred eighty s. also the regime of the shah in iran which was one of the main are those of the us and also the us support for the regimes in the regime precisely the lebanon where the shiites for so long on to the one nine hundred seventy s. were among the most disenfranchised and oppressed community and also because of u.s. support for the saudis and saudi being the main exporter of what ideology across the world which was caused so much extremism to grow across the world specifically because of saudi funding this is causing more and more animosity towards us among the shia of the shiites you know you know it's very interesting i mean if you look at al-qaeda you know the going after the united states nine eleven except when the

united states continues this relationship and it is same time talks about democracy but just not there that's kind of strange isn't it. well we have some very common interests with saudi government it's a big oil producer we're both committed to maintaining security in the persian gulf well our all of our values and interests converge of course time and we don't have that kind of relationship with any country in terms of the democracy movements and arab spring sense that started the u.s. has promised promoted democratization and the arab world especially in countries like egypt now it's kind of accomplice that complicated situation in the persian gulf with saudi arabia for example how far do we push political reforms and part of the world are the countries in that part of the world ready for these reforms you can argue yes but how will that affect our relationship the u.s.

relationship with those countries and pact some of our key objectives like containing and you clearly run josh i've just never understood it i mean so he may be has a lot of oil i mean whatever regime is there is going to export it to make money right so why not have a democratic one or push for that. well it's not really about saudi arabia it's about. control of the second world control of the gulf persian gulf at the end of the second world war america learned a very important lesson we in a sense defeated. because we took away his energy his oil his panzer units his air force scame to a screeching halt because they didn't have supplies this is the point of the hinge of fate stalin grodd and el al i'm a know where he was turned back he was trying to get soviet oil he was trying to get middle eastern oil yeah yeah but just i don't know if i guess i don't know as yahshua i mean the united states will be self-sufficient relatively soon in oil

recent report it's about the world it's about keeping your hand it's about keeping your hand on the world's tap of oil if you can deny oil and energy to your potential opponents we don't even know who they might be then they cannot you know in a third world war well america is still the world leader if we relinquish that. a lot of a lot of major oil importers want the united states to protect shipping in the persian gulf so it's not just about the united states having its a hand on oil in the persian gulf there's much more to the europeans. japanese than the chinese count on the united states to maintain stability in that region look at the region it's very unstable. what do you do you are right and i think that's one reason i think you community of stability you can go ahead and you can achieve stability avoid supporting the main saudi arabia which is the main troublemaker in the region which does cause the bulk of stone to be to become such. a haven for

extremists because of its exporting of ideology which was represented in the deal bundy's school in pakistan which did not exist decades ago and this is also the case in syria where because of so the funding and precisely because of so do support you have all of these judges pouring into syria so you can't really talk about stability when when you're. actually supporting the saudi arabia which is which also is responsible for the for funding at least you know funding and supporting other. than iraq which is what schwartz you know the main reason for all of the six. in iraq and josh you want to jump in there before we go to the break thirty seconds well i think i think i think this is a point america has killed almost a quarter of a million middle easterners in the war and talor terror and they're almost all sidney's so the al-qaeda movement the terrorist movements have been and that are

anti american are largely sunni it's and. you know this is this stirring up the religious strife and i think that alley is right it's not just america's fault this is a regional problem and it is that only middle easterners can come to terms with but america is stuck in the middle of it all right gentlemen we're going to go to a. very short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the sunni shiite divide stay with our. slate. still. hold it. hold. her mother.

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welcome back to crossfire comparable to remind you we're talking about the sunni shia conflict. and if you. came with it if i go back to you in dubai after everything that's happened with the arab spring and what's going on with syria do you think that the west is rethinking its neo colonial project in the region or is it just recalibrating using the sectarian divide. i would say it's just recalibrating because. as you can see the muslim brotherhood is becoming just as aligned with u.s. interests as was as was the mubarak regime just slightly less there is nothing that they can really do about that this is also the case in tunisia where french and american influence is not likely to diminish anytime soon the main problem here is syria where the u.s. is trying you know as we know trying to gain more influence by effectively trying

to tie up with the regime through all of its you know through the its clients saudi arabia and qatar which are funding the jihad is going into syria so i wouldn't say that there is this is causing an end to the neo colonialists project this is just changing changing the equation just roughly ok joshua changing the equation when you think about that. well united states is trying to withdraw from the middle east largely and consolidate its interests in the gulf region around saturn arabia because we have pulled out of iraq we've pulled out we're trying to pull out of afghanistan and we're trying not to get into syria although we are creeping there there is a growing mission creep with just recognize the new government but we prescribe al qaeda in in syria so we're treating syria in a much more gray zone than the old bush you know with us or against us where we're prescribing al qaeda we're coming out against assad we're recognizing

a new government that's. hopefully pro western so. obama is trying to complicate this and not just turn it into a sectarian you know slugfest and i think i think washington is very conscious that they do not want to be siding on one side of a religious war they have it all if i go to you it looks like it will in the end as things are going to go ahead in washington well. in a lot of ways what we see today in the middle east is a sectarian war a conflict between the sunni shia specifically a major rivalry between iran and saudi arabia and it's not a neo colonialist project there is no such thing the us has a specific set of interests in the middle east we work with our partners to achieve them sometimes there are tensions a lot in lot of countries the united states doesn't have that much influence we can't shape the outcome of the syria conflict exactly to our liking we have to deal

with the situation we have in the middle east so looking at had this son the divisions will be a big part of what's going on in the middle east if you what do you think i mean i use neocolonialism you seem to agree he did and. this is not a green i think this is just semantics the u.s. is behaving just start a. new clueless ball we're so this isn't changing regardless of all we need try to see things differently the u.s. is trying as much as it can to gain influence i wouldn't agree with with the saying that the u.s. is trying to retreat from syria over the middle east and concentrate in the gulf you know to some extent perhaps in egypt but the u.s. is trying to gain a lot of ground. you know trying to the outcome of the crisis in syria to the advantage of the jihad is there and the and the armed opposition josh are you afraid that syria is just going to explode we had libya imploded but syria could

explode and then again let's say with the sectarian issue well i've not sure i think that has been overblown the sort of first world war in the middle east because syria sectarian problems are just going to sweep over the rest of the region it is true that the sarah sectarian problems and particularly the outflow of refugees. is weighing down the neighboring countries and lebanon is fragile jordan we've seen demonstration. it's fragile iraq is still unsettled with a war going on between sunnis and shiites in iraq so and it has it has increased sectarian tensions in turkey shiites particularly amongst the heterodox communities the isle of eason the alawite different shiite inflected groups are very distressed where they are of this policy of supporting the muslim brotherhood in syria so it has increased tensions but i don't think the middle east is going to collapse although syria the future of syria looks very bleak today that is for sure and it's

going to be a constant engine stoking this religion this religious tensions only if i go back here in washington all of the borders were designed by western powers after the first world war are we seeing a redrawing of borders in a way i mean maybe not officially but i mean because of populations and sectarian beliefs and some ways we're seeing the system being undermined not necessarily by the united states or the west but by the realities on the ground for example the syrian nation state is made up of many different ethnic religious and sectarian groups and the syrian regime maintained order through fear through force through oppression that really works for so long so there are a lot of these states that are not natural nation states like turkey or iran or egypt and we see instability in those countries more than anywhere else so in some ways this is a breaking down of the old order. movement when you think about. the breakdown of

the older just to what degree west has control over that change i think. ok i'd just like to go back just a little bit to what josh was such regarding whether or not the conflict in syria is going to spill over into other countries i would say that of a certain regime were to come to power in syria there is a very great possibility that the sudanese lebannon who do not have a very strong leadership. as opposed to the other communities might feel empowered and especially the more radical groups to try to provoke a certain suspect area in strife within lebanon by attacking by attacking hezbollah and shiite populated areas this is also the case in iraq you know or you might very well have certain sunni and sunni extremist groups who might not for the majority but might be powerful a powerful enough to initiate or try to restart the civil war there in iraq so yes

there is and we believe very strong possibility that what is happening in syria as a result of a lack of leadership among sunnis in iraq and a limit on this might eventually lead to these families trying to instigate the sectarian strife in these two countries. yes ok josh would you want to reply that you agree or disagree. well i do you know i i think it's true it's going to put the coming to power of a sunni government in syria which looks very likely is going to give a real boost to the sunnis in iraq who are very unhappy that they've been completely pushed out of power by the maliki government and it's going to cities in lebanon who feel like they're the natural leaders of lebanon are quite bitter about the power of hezbollah so those those two those two things are going to have an effect will it greatly change the balance of power in the region i don't think so on the other hand i do think we're seeing you know the biggest redrawing that we're seeing is amongst the kurds because the kurds were very were left out as

a national group of the first world war settlement in the middle east and in eastern syria the kurdish region is now largely autonomous and there are many who would like to break off and secede from an arab syria and and join kurdistan in iraq and of course this is cause kurds and recrudescence of violence in eastern turkey where the pay k.k. is once again. engaged in violent acts in eastern turkey so that that has you know that is going to definitely be an area of some conflict and experiencing the arabs fight in the kurds when. i don't know if the kurds when but i agree with josh i had the kurdish issue is huge in the middle east it tends not to get a lot of attention we've been focused very much on the sunny shared divide but the kurdish issue is very important because turkey syria iraq iran all have big kurdish

minorities that are arrest so i think that's an issue we should really keep an eye out on because that will be a big part of what's going on in the middle east today but if you know one of the things that really bothers me is that these jihadists that are paid and trained or whatever and however they're related to the saudi arabia it's really easy to get them moving but it's hard to get them to slow down you know you fire them up and once they're fired up that they're almost impossible to control do you worry about that when it comes to syria yes you know the soldiers are not very picky about who these supports and who would be fun this is exactly what up in the for going to stern with the soldiers from the. the chickens are coming home to roost in saudi arabia and in yemen and does work and so this is going to be the exact same thing in syria because it is a policy for saudi arabia to fund as we all know extremism outside of saudis so that they wouldn't start any problems at home but eventually funding all of these groups that are becoming so well organized is going to cause problems for saudi

eventually but more importantly it is going to cause a great deal of problems for both syria iraq and iraq and also lebanon oh you look like you are skeptical there you want to reply to that. well i think the jihadi threat is very real i wouldn't just say that the threat comes from one source or one government really there are number of individuals across the arab world that are funding these groups and this is the risk of having bashar al assad government in syria collapse i'm not arguing that we should try to promote change in syria we should but it's understandable that the u.s. government is cautious when it comes to the situation because we don't fully understand what's going on on the ground who will succeed succeed but shiela sad well be groups linked to al qaeda and this is a real danger ok josh i'm going to give you the last word we've seen the birth

pangs of a new middle east right before our eyes. real quick where we are seeing the birth pangs and getting back to the end of the first world war the whole idea of nation states has not really been adopted in there was always a minority sentiment that nation states are a foreigner imposition on the middle east and that the kayleigh fit and that we should go back to an islamic rule and al qaida represents that sort of thinking and represents that sort of rump islamic thinking it's a minority but it's still an important element in the middle east and it shows the weakness of the national sentiment which i think we're seeing coming to the fore and this this is a battle in some ways between an older islamic vision of a caliphate than a unified islamic world against nation states all right as i said on the now if you're saying we have run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks today to my guests in dubai norman and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us to see you next time and remember across troubles.

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it's perched atop a jod under view from the ball scrabble and stretches as far as the eye can see up for a city that chilled all of siberia for centuries. it lost its economic importance even before it was bypassed by the chance i bear in railway but the a spiritual center. things like these are a yearly occurrence thousands of orthodox worshippers of them selves and blessid water to commemorate the baptism of jesus. when you pull up on board them it doesn't matter if it's minus thirty it's a siberian tradition i do it myself every year for everyone to overcome their worst fears it is desirable to take the plunge. but that's

a picture postcard church is the story of a city built by opportunist explorers political exiles and crafty fur traders. in the fifteen eighties the russians had only just conquered siberia taking it from the muslims. surrounded by enemies the balls to be their stronghold constructed on top of the city but soon enough it became an economic hub siberian fire was the oil of its star i'm bringing in a third of all russia's state revenue but the location head of the says for the russians are. to moscow as one of the most popular places to send political dissenters not any people were exiled that wants a giant bell that was used to incite riots was supposed to set a three hundred ten. the russian heiress across who led a revolt against the czar in eighteen twenty five known as the decembrists worse than heroin drove. there they created

a replica high society adopting the latest fashions as soon as they came out or at least once they made it from paris to siberia. but the city also serves up some bit of irony for the russian royal family after the bolshevik revolution this is the office was nicholas the second spend most of the last year of his life his whole family had been exiled here they led a fairly comfortable existence this was a big house but they weren't allowed to see visitors or go outside themselves leaving the ordinary normal countryside life style they even had thoughts of escape but within the year bizarre and his family would be dead. never again its political significance but the streets will always echo with a glorious past and will likely provide the livelihood for some habitants in the future.

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