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oh and welcome across our computer lavelle the central intelligence agency it is feared in secretive as well as the stuff of legends but the cia has a checkered history to say the least since its inception has been revealed that it consistently goes beyond the bounds of law and even morality what is the use of this agency today should it be shut down in rebuilt from the ground up. to cross like the cia today i'm joined by paul schulz in london he is a nonresident senior associate with the carnegie endowment in washington we have jacob hornberger he is the founder and president of the future of freedom foundation and in philadelphia we crossed to lawrence davidson he is a professor of history at west chester university all right gentlemen cross talk

rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want jacob if i go to you first isn't it time to shut down the cia. absolutely it's long past time it needs to be abolished it is no place in a free society its justification was the cold war that ended a long time ago and it's really at the root of many of the foreign policy was that the american people are now suffering well that was very st paul how do you feel about that. i think that's a gross oversimplification of the story if there are errors that the american government makes it's not due to the cia it's due to the directions they're given and to close it down would cause immense disruption and difficult him building up an agency with comparable competence and replace it ok if i could stay with you so the cia has never done anything without direction. that's not exactly what i said but i'm not aware that there is evidence that the content of the contemporary cia we're not talking about the sixty's and early seventy's and all those things which

were put right by the church or the frank church investigations you know that but the contemporary cia i do not think is alleged credibly to be proceeding without direction ok lawrence you want to jump in there write. your guest in london. your guest practicable to. the cia in era of nation states and also i agree that you cia does not act in a rogue fashion under normal circumstances it will take direction it is given direction by the politicians by the white house and sometimes it will interpret those directions or people in your own turf interpret those directions broadly one of the problems is that the politicians the president the national security council

has over time given the the cia. the ok if you will go to go beyond the very laws of the nation of the united states and so what we need is not its pollution so much as it's restructuring or reform so that it operates within the laws of the nation and it operates to do what it does best which is to gather information. as a basis for policy formulation of what do you think about that i mean you know big over board sometimes ok but isn't that their creed there are a paramilitary force that belongs to the president willing to carry out whatever orders the president orders now i can understand why any proponent of the cia would not want to go back to the sixty's in the seventy's and so forth because this was

the era where the the cia for example ousted the democratically elected prime minister of iran destroying their experiment with democracy ousted the democratically elected president of guatemala on presidential orders but then murdered two americans in chile in their support of the pinochet coup we still don't know whether the president was behind that or whether the cia did that on their own initiative now we have a force that's carrying out the president's orders to assassinate people including americans without due process of law none of this is consistent with the principle of a free society and a limited government republic yeah ok paul but you know it is going back to the sixty's and seventy's isn't it with drones go ahead. i wonder if you are curious in first of all your your timing those events show talking about

grata moller iran for example with charlie the one nine hundred fifty s. rather a long time ago and currently there are congressional oversight arrangements and i if if if you are running a project about the future of the cia i wonder if you have been in touch with those congressional committees and giving them evidence because it is their job to look at what the cia is doing and see whether that's consistent with u.s. law and the directions of the u.s. government now have you been in touch with them well let's go to dr let's go to drone so ok what's the congressional oversight for drone well that you're jumping to a different issue but it was related to maiming you the same issue where is the oversight when you're making a general claim and let me remind you that the cia consists of lots of things go ahead it is not just drones it's not just our amounted to nothing or pretty big deal aren't you want to jump in there. they're the cia the cia is in fact an arm of the executive branch of the government. and if that

executive branch says we're going to kill americans we're going to we're going to if the executive branch if the politicians say you we're going to give them kill americans we're going to kill children we're going to put on sanctions that destroy economies. there are plenty of people under need that the executive branch that will carry out those those orders the oversight has also eroded the principle that the cia and any other government operation should in fact be restricted to the laws of its own nation is a is a principle that has to be enforced if it's not enforced if it's overlooked or it's ignored then bad things will happen so it's really like you know matter of pressure ok paul you want to jump in there go ahead i mean that the south well

let's hope it's going to london. let's try to bring some clarity into this and some responsibility it sounds as though the critique is about american foreign and security policy not about the cia if you don't like what the u.s. government is doing that isn't about what the cia is and that problem would not go away if you abolish the cia if you don't like the american drone strike that's a different critique that's what this one which has been democratically the us has just had an election where that issue was not raised by any major party within the american public so i assume that that's a real democratic and a real tragedy as an it that's a real tragedy well you may not like to hear it and i understand the critique and usually it's i know not unusual jacob jump in go ahead but but you need. that if you leave this going wrong you're you should be objecting to the american democratic process and the views of the american electorate jake up go ahead

shouldn't you that's right i think he's got an absolute i agree with alan to want that really what. what ought to be debated here in the united states is the whole edifice of the national security state the giant military empire the military industrial complex president eisenhower warned us about that he said this is a grave threat to america's democratic processes president truman in one thousand nine hundred sixty three said that the cia at that point had already turned into a dark and sinister force it was never designed for covert operations they converted it into that and the fact is that the cia is the principal vehicle by which the president carries out assassinations regime change operations military coups they just assassinated a sixteen year old american citizen and worse the congressional oversight on that well the fact is the no limits how are you going how do you start to take on the

cia the issue is how do you stop that you get rid of this entire and i don't know if you disagree and call it just remember if it isn't over the cold war is over. lawrence ok just like you did and i did not go to war over laurence continue to point and then we're going to have to look. lawrence first if you want and i just want to line in lawrence first. look i mean it's very it's very well and good to have these ideals about freedom and what have you the issue though is how do you accomplish a reform or restructuring of the cia that can be done. but it takes popular pressure and it takes political will all right it's been done before that the cia has been restructured and so if you want to do that you've got to

raise these issues which i'm sure the fellow your other guest is doing however in terms of the industrial complex and all this i mean the united states' economy is tied up into this industrial complex and you're not going to do away with it in any short order but. i think that with the proper. pressure and with the proper publicity you can embarrass the politicians into. causing the cia take be directed. by virtue of the laws of the nation and you have to set up a permanent oversight permanent oversight that publicly carried out ok not carried out if you have a man you know words to hurt you you mention the word versus you all you want to comment you had two points you said couple of points first of all i have what what we have seem to have heard is. a very recognizable mirror marxist critique of

american politics and the economy i get that we've heard that but how do you get america to adopt the policies that you would like to paraphrase brecht use sounds like you have to dissolve the u.s. electorate and create a new one because what else are you going to do these facts that you're mentioning are no no there's no inhibitions about talking about them and yet american the american public and political class except for the continuation of the drone warfare strategy now you might not like that but it's not about something being done in the dark it isn't about distorted behavior by irresponsible or out of control operatives and your point about the right you're going to make sure i mean you so i just point out we're going to short stories we're going to get a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the cia stay with r.t. . something

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welcome back to crossfire i'm peter lavelle your mind you were talking about the central intelligence agency. ok jake i think you were called a new york marxist or how do you want to react to that i mean is it there has to be some kind of reform here out or there's no accountability whatsoever yeah go ahead. well i think we can forgive paul for that indiscretion because he lives in britain he's obviously not familiar with libertarianism and the libertarian movement in the united states but let me let me

edify him a bit that libertarian this is a libertarian critique of the national security state libertarians here in the united states paul we believe in individual freedom free markets a limited government constitutional republic and none of this is consistent with a military empire in which there is military bases and more than one hundred countries which engage in a cia that engages in regime change operations military coups. interference in the internal affairs of other countries assassinates people incarcerate people indefinitely tortures people none of this is consistent with a free society and that's something that status or committed to is something we libertarians are opposed to ok paul if you want to reply to that go ahead yes i'm on one repents and i don't think that was intended to indiscretion you may be a libertarian in the politics you espouse the changes you'd like to make but the analysis you were using about what drives american state behavior and the marriage

of between politics and industry and on the company is that that is a marxist critique i'm not saying for that reason nor do i feel it's wrong but how that may be the way i was coming from what are you suggesting the president eisenhower was a marxist. he said because they read it well and are you suggesting that president eisenhower was a minus lawrence jump in the problem with the cia goes beyond jones and. assassinations and the like the probably one of the one of the particular problems is that in the middle levels of the intelligence agencies particularly the cia but in the defense intelligence agency in the state department etc at those middle levels you have very competent very good analysts who essentially know their territory know the languages and produce data produced

produced intelligence that is valuable for for the use in policy formulation however if that intelligence does not match up with the op priority political positions or ideological attitudes of the president or of the democratic or republican parties or whoever the who controls the congress and cetera the intelligence is ignored and that's a serious problem i mean that happened in the second iraq war where where they just you know mind the data for whatever whatever they wanted and ignored what the analysts were telling them and it actually happened in the early stages of vietnam to. an intelligence agency an intelligence agency which operates essential to its best perform best performance you have you run the

risk of having its due recommendations ignored if they're not politically appropriate paul you want to gentlemen's a risk with a system that isn't going to risk anything silly it's absolutely right it's one that has you or your great should it seems going direction seems to be not with the cia but with u.s. administrations perhaps not so much the present one because you're referring to the bushel of liberation they write that clear well that i should continue with american politics well they they are right i think i think you're right i mean that the true issue isn't the cia why do we pretend to be truly run the cia if you're branches with those american political system i'm here because they invited me to be here just like you do. right now i'm trying to bring a bit more i wonder jake i want to jump in ok peter yeah. even

when the cia is successful in its operations we can't ignored the net negative blowback yet here they oust most the deck in iran in fifty three and end up with the iranian revolution after supporting and training the shah of iran to dictatorial secret police force which was there for a little cia then we end up with an iranian crisis many years later and these gentlemen don't say well let's not go back to fifty three even though that was the precipitating cause or when the cia induced the soviets on the i don't face that i don't think there's any doubt. i don't think there's any doubt that the political political decisions that led to this were in fact disastrous. the thinking is short is short term and it's and it ignores often ignores the intelligence that you have and it's a it's a serious political problem and it's not unique to the united states i agree with

your fellow and when you do and it's not unique paul it's a hard thing to do to anticipate how history is going to work out isn't it. already is right on a convention was not so good but that doesn't mean you can do nothing every time about because you how about say and how do you know if you're an intervention go ahead take a container they suck the cells they're going to do that they want to improve the so. quite a work in progress that they said well so how is it invading afghanistan they support the radical islamists to alice the soviet occupiers and then all of a sudden we end up with nine eleven in the terrorist attacks on the u.s.s. cole and the east africa embassy and the whole war on terrorism as a result of that blowback i mean the cia well history of cia and interventions is a disaster. ok paul no memory i think that's going to fall in line did not leave it

shake up doesn't understand all right lawrence go ahead i think what jacob doesn't understand is that if you destroy the cia they were i mean they being the political structure and the political leadership of the united states will in fact recreate it and it doesn't matter if it's even if it's a libertarian government in some fantastic a way you know we create this because of the nature of the the nation state world we live it i mean look what happened you know after if i may and after the russian revolution i mean you had a rather vicious kind of intelligence secret kind of thing going on under this song called the check what. do away with it know they just restructured recreated it and it's the that's the case with almost every country in this on this planet

and well i mean i think what you gentlemen is any you know a when he will have the nation right any fear would be evil by definition right. jake up absolutely it's yes i mean with her sort of take up here in america live without america live without a secret domestic police force for more than one hundred fifty years we live without a cia it was brought into existence in forty seven with the ostensible purpose of opposing america's world war two partner now i the soviet union that call it means the usa or for there is no need for that cia anymore it's inconsistent with their roofs and i know all americans are going to live without it they can live without it again it's going to palm london it's well it's going to fall in love isn't it so fine just say no to their own appalling wanted guys there were no problems of fire to see to say that there was no american secret service before the cia that was the

o.s.'s was which was extremely active in world war two so that's factually just wrong but if we look also at the question of blowback we could go through every single cold war and post cold war crisis and say this worked that worked no it didn't yes it did that's a rather long term analytical process we're not going to achieve any agreement in a couple of minutes now but if we're going to talk about the kind of stand and the american response from the russians soviets and that was an action which helped bring down the soviet union the support to the afghan groups then ended the. communist empire in your asia much quicker and with much less disastrous collateral effects but if you want to see a way to predict the collapse of the soviet union did it well you know you really understand history isn't so fine you know i don't think they did however believe it would stress that so the soviet union and that not to be true the fact that it

broke the soviet union was a welcome once one for you that's one theory ok go ahead lawrence look. well i mean i hate to be simplistic about this but every country has its rules its laws and i think that what's doable here is to produce some sort of which do you think most of. these countries have. pressured. have a no they don't have whatever agency that they have or do have we have to act within the rules of law and to make that a voting issue to make it an issue in the elections i think is a do both thing it's not easy so what is what i don't know how to proceed they're going to assume ok jacob go ahead jump in well you know it's a very good he gave us the last word as. well i found it interesting that paul

goes back to the o.s.'s i'm talking about america from seventeen eighty seven to nineteen forty something america lived without a cia for more than a century a free society cannot have these kind of horse is within there we have the president we live in a very we're challenging we're challenging the status paradigm that's what we're doing as libertarians were saying it is possible to restore a limited government republic to our land by dismantling these cold war totalitarian time edifices. well i'm perfectly legitimate political i think it's all for the good it's not going to work because modern society is just much more complicated when i can be totally naive a lot more interesting i am and we don't have it ok many thanks to my guest today in london washington and in philadelphia and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. it's

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