over so much time indeed western civilization i'm afraid is falling a civilized and we're talking about economic political social military i shudder when i think of the western civilization and western values has done and it gives me much to write about and i've written a couple of books i've written three books on it i didn't call the western values a western civilization but i reflected those things in what i wrote and i discuss it all the time in my own radio program in the many articles that i write i write them daily before the program today i grafted on an article i'll get out tomorrow is certainly reflects western values i'm afraid i have nothing good to say about them all right on that point i'm going to thank you jamie john good job there was a lot there go ahead while i look the west does not have a monopoly on virtue and it's not devoid of of evil but obviously i

would strongly disagree with what the previous speaker mentioned i think that the west has been a term that we grew used to during the cold war when it was a battle between east and west when it was a battle between a society that was going to advance democracy and and market economy that put the individual at the center and had the state as a servant to the citizen rather than a citizen a servant to the state and also the also the west has the ability for critical self examination and to advance itself it's made many mistakes and as a learn from it ok michael jump in where do you come in on this. from a very interesting that there's a comment about gandy you know where my wife is from south asia so i'm very familiar with indian culture and you'll be pushed to find an indian today even more than a billion people who would take that comment by gandy seriously gandy of course was

a product of western civilization he was educated in the united kingdom and for a time in south africa and india went through generations of poverty until it actually rejected it spawns the idea of gandy embrace capitalism we think more than two hundred fifty million people have been given good incomes in the past twenty years because of that love is too simplistic to say that any one side or one course has all the truth but if you want the idea of western values first this is important that doesn't just mean the united states i'm not here to bash america i love the united states but western values and virtues important word is more than just the us i would trace this back i suppose to the ancient greeks to hell in it culture through to the romans to the birth of christianity very important that of course came from the middle east but expanded into into europe and the west of course bad things have been done in the name of western values terrible things of committing the crime of love democracy freedom communism all sorts of things but if we think about progress science enlightenment for example the power to enforce

slavery but then the ability and the morality to end slavery so it's just too facile to say that the west is bad the west is wrong and if you look at the emerging world it's not embracing the values of say the former soviet union embracing the english language a controlled capitalism progress something approaching what the west enjoys now civility democracy it goes wrong but generally goes right the feeling i mean you can take some of the values like democracy ok but you shouldn't force it on other people i mean we're talking about different things. well i'm not sure what democracy are you talking you would actually let me let me go to you in person on this one here because i think everyone likes them ocracy everybody does ok but bombing someone to have it is another thing you know i had stephen. well i don't think any nation has the right to force any system on another nation in america of course many makes a practice of that it institutionalize forcing its ways on other nations and

international law is very clear on this this is absolutely illegitimate illegal but when you talk about democracy i write a lot about democracy i go back to america's founders and i can assure you in their own words the last thing they establish in america was democracy they deploy democracy they wanted no part of it i mean look at the country they they they instituted they gave voting rights to fifteen percent of the population blacks were in people they were commodities women had no rights they were homemakers in childcare is what kind of democracy is that america exterminated is made of people is it in slave this black people and we got rid of but we got rid of chattel slavery and what do we have today in this place. wait slavery i mean you can really take america piece by piece michel you are well these are just mindless cliches i mean they're just silly aren't they i mean i want to i don't conversation here but a little respect if we're just going to if we're going to speak in cliches we're

not going to get anywhere first of all historically this is just infantile the founding fathers believe very much in democracy no democracy involved of course and you had a market say that only applies to people who own property you have the birth defect of slavery which the country then strips off into a civil war largely to remove but when you talk about imposing values on others i'm sorry i was all for imposing values on national socialist germany we had a right not legation to go in there and destroy that regime fascist the pan is well i don't but look at the iraq war i was against the iraq war afghanistan i think there's an argument for that but this idea that somehow america imposing its values across the world is the norm that's not true and the united states getting involved in the second world war leaving five hundred fifty thousand men dead in in africa in asia and europe a war it could all that i'd like a lot of money that ok no i go there are a good idea out there i'm all of us let's take the example of libya. the second world war i think even if we usually should have gone in there ok then we should mention it libya libya was the wrong decision you know what i don't i do not

understand libya gadhafi was turning right he'd been a monster and we tolerated him he wanted to become part of the west and we got rid of him i was completely against libya i'll go further i think mubarak should have been supported i think the arab spring is going to be a disaster for democracy and minorities and women and gay people and christians throughout the arab world yes i'm against it ok but david i want to say with these values things i mean people in the arab world want democracy ok do they have to be delivered it with a drone well i i think i think what people want is they want they want justice they want opportunity they don't want an election as a one day event that's not going to see any institutions built that allow them in we allow them to determine their sit and they determine that themselves why do we have to be the nanny of the hurly what happened. well i look we're in or not the nanny of the world whether it's whether it's europe or the united states but i

think that the that the united states and europe and the west needs to be very clear about what our values are and that means that you're supporting people who want democracy either in principle or in material support and what you know the reality is is that a full blown democracy is the most stable form of government there is but that transition is a very very unstable one and i don't disagree with everything that one of the. panelists said that there is questions about why libya why not syria. what do we do in egypt is a big never then so you kind of famously said you don't want to pull your support from an existing leader and tell you know what's going to replace them and he sat obviously in the in the seat when when the shah of iran left so there is a lot of questions about how best to respond to change how best to promote change

but i think that it is absolutely right that that governments have to stay ahead of their people and their desire for greater civil liberties greater democracy greater opportunity to work in the marketplace ok steve i think it's really quite interesting when we were bringing up the arab spring here but for decades the west is turned its eyes away from civil society and democratic ideas that all of a sudden they're very interested in. well i don't think the west is interested in not this local arab spring is really a bogus term it's a western term peter it is not a middle east term and the situation in the middle east right now is worse than when the so-called arab spring began around winter two thousand and eleven tunisia egypt again conditions in tunisia to now worse than on the banality barack is gone mostly wants to establish and is a lamo fascist dictatorship that's what morsi is all about we don't want to bring

that about and are you feeling that we should of influence that the outcome we didn't bring about we should have learned your brain or the we didn't. i think or you think a certain man of business i think sir that maybe rather than he is constantly writing a blog you should read a little bit of history and current events michael it looks like you agree with stephen i want to do it here let's let michael go well if i may again i think i know facts can be annoying but arab spring actually is an arabic word it's a direct translation from the arabic now what happens in egypt for example i may approve or not approve of you can have it both ways we have won the title as saying that western values appalling and repugnant do so much damage the same time he's moaning about what is going on in the middle east right now i think that western american anglo-american european policy towards the middle east has generally been what it's certainly lacked nuance but democracy is more than about as someone said

earlier one person one vote maybe one election it's about a context is about respecting the opposition it's about tolerating the people who lose it about a free press you know in turkey right now you do have democracy but you have more journalists in prison and then the other country on earth what i'm frightened about in egypt is that if women turning up to vote are denied that vote because they're not wearing a job or a burka we're in serious trouble right gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here we're going to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the west stay with r.t. . well i believe. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for like you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that

everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture. government no longer represents the people the people are going to take the term. we. may not be the revolution in the traditional sense but in the loop didn't come up. the way our economic system currently is not going to. come up with. what.

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to be soon which brightened. from plans to. start on t.v. dot com. welcome back to cross talk on people about to mind you we're talking about what the west means. ok day i'd like to go back to you as we have been talking about democracy and i think all of us on this program agree with democratic values ok but the united states and its western allies like to deny democracy in many places and it has done for us for decades ok you can look at hamas you can look at other places where they've been elections but the west say you know we don't like that ok doesn't that

hurt the west and that misses not necessarily the idea of democracy. well i look i find it interesting that the suggestion that the united states is denying democracy obviously during the cold war the battle lines was was who's with the west who's who's with the soviet union and the top of the agenda was not necessarily whether the leader of a certain country was was democratic or not those days are behind us and of course i think that that the principled stand for democracy the principle stand for human rights is a very very important thing that said that said the world during this administration has been a very unstable world we have more crises in the middle east we have problems in asia so while you want to pursue democracy and pursue the institutions of

democracy that does not mean that you want just any radical glue group to come to power through through intimidation and a again have perhaps one election not govern in a fair and just way not expand justice to its population so yes you want to produce promote democracy but you want to be realistic about it you want to promote institutions that will further the rights and freedoms of individuals not simply have an election day event and then that's the last one ok well michael why shouldn't people if i go right up in question that premise because you said that the west didn't like the results of the election with hamas being elected well it doesn't have to like it it be one thing if the west intervened to to disrupt the government to get rid of a month i mean canada canadian canada was the first country to say what mass is elected we will have no relationship with you it has a right to do that democracy resulted it may have been

a flawed democracy it may not be a walk and democracy may be quite intolerant but the mass won in gaza that's the result the west doesn't have to prove that the west doesn't have to give. all money to these countries you can have your election but we don't have to say we approve of the result this happens international not just with underdeveloped countries but when we think of the west's first interest is the west and there should be no apology but it's not by now the west can have feels own interest but if they can't control what devalues mean democracy ok so i would tend to disagree with you on that ok you know be democratic but if you have an election we still don't like the outcome it sounds hypocritical why but again we're not and we're going to have a deal with them whether the government when it is time here david you on jump in. now i just i just agree i agree with the point that you accept what democracy has brought but you don't need to necessarily support the government and you can you can call on that new government for standards of governance for standards of governance for its own people for standards of governance in this relationship with

its neighbors yes but david then then the palestinian people are being punished for voting the wrong way right i don't see how they're being punished omen for voting the wrong way ok well when i started my statement right c.n.n. you know it is you know you got gaza is under blockade ok god has been already because of hamas gaza is down there in gaza resent early in the illegal blockade when humanitarian missions try to come in the israeli navy intercepts them in murders humanitarian activists they murdered nine on a mission a couple of years ago in may two thousand and ten he's a cool hide your last american is behind this and when we allow to in gaza america so when we would all have been the. well maybe you should i mean he does a lot about the wall with that without actually having been there because i have and i can tell you as much as i think that israel palestine i'm not sure if they'll

be a solution but i wish they could be one but the idea that the israeli navy is blockading and murdering people well i mean you know so you want to say that those are you suppose a prophet and what he's really. supports i mean his irony of which i'm going on why if you said what i was not comes down to to support reading communities in the west bank on a daily basis do you support institutionalized torture you support institutional as i realize and i'm not sure i give you an example of the rate that supported israel in going home spaces you have you know and americans have very old and ways of middle. america about america but i mean this is that this is a down market like hong kong to tell you which they say these are out. of her fiance and gentleman david now it looks. like michael michael david.

you the united states the west. government is not a stabilizing if we supported. it nations and any suggestion you know the one panel and then it also says that we're responsible for everything and i mean i think that. well first you know where i wish the west is that of the west has done a lot for me. to pull the whiskey be everything that i have you know without without the west.

the very serious flaws and. states because if it threatens to attack israel so by your standard the united states should pursue what i read on rails or earlier your standard we should pursue those in gaza military militarily well that's a well that's a big lie iran has threatened no one iran hasn't attacked another country in two or three centuries. you're right it's a good thing for a while you have a line in yours or a moral right this guy are a gentleman let's change gears here michael what about drones how does this you

know the west looks intensely violent in that part of the world and the legality of it is very unclear talk about drones. you mean the middle east of afghanistan precisely talking about pakistan. pakistan and i think this is the most troubled and troubling region in the entire world actually for even more so than iran because you have a government in the country that still is meant to be allied to the west but of course is playing a game has a nuclear bomb drones are killing innocent people as well as the guilty you know there was a time when warriors or each other face to face and it was never a good thing sometimes it's inevitable but today these drones are being flown by by no exam rooms three thousand miles away i don't blame the west for using drones it's an exclusive the west of course so people use them but i'm not sure how you deal with pakistan i know being on the television i meant to have supernatural wisdom but i don't know how you deal with a country where the you know there was

a time in pakistan you are said radicalism but the intelligentsia the educated class was sufficiently large it would always be ok when i was at university benazir bhutto was at university this is a very very progressive accomplished person that's gone the educated classes haemorrhage pakistan it's not really in large numbers and radicalism is the order of the day and you have the intelligence services that are terribly unreliable i am very pessimistic but i wouldn't say withdraw foreign aid because people still need help in that country and india and kashmir in the troubled border this is going to be a fun time this year it really is david you know i go to the dry comment on rome was go ahead stephen jump in can i comment on one hand. well there's been a number of studies the most recent one was stanford university new york university and reading the report i quoted verbatim from it in two articles i wrote only two percent two percent of those killed are what america calls high level military targets nearly all the others who are civilians you talk about drone wars they are

killing civilians the pentagon denies it the cia deny it mainly cia absolutely denied but those are the cold hard facts do york university and stand for you over a city don't play me talk to them david how do you think i will be homeless all about very heavily on. the days in yemen it's in somalia it's in other countries there's a major base being expanded in djibouti. bases all over the place you've got these computer terminals you could fire away operate is you've got more close in operate is but there is a very. large and forty thousand realizing who is only as a by my calling when i call jumpin houses sir sir sir just listen for a moment please give me the courtesy of this tell me who is fighting whom in yemen could you tell me. well it certainly isn't american though in hamilton for the yemenis it's not for america oh you know this is you know yeah i'll bite on your

hind legs ronnie you kate you were not for america and then is not america's wall of yemen is a war being fought between superpowers in the region iran and saudi arabia sunni and shia islam fighting each other in this area the idea that america does this paranoia that america is everywhere it's like you've got these gutter and you see much you think it's always a jewish person behind an issue yet iran turkey saudi arabia even the emerging egypt these are power brokers in the region there's a complexity of the world that goes beyond your idea of america in the west but everyone else good it's far more complex than that david i'm going to be the last word in the program go ahead why i think i think wasn't what's important to get back to is that the world is a very complex very dangerous world and i still think that the the west the economic prosperity that spread beyond the west the stability through through your atlantic institutions still has a lot to contribute to the world not a monopoly on virtue but certainly i think it's

a powerful positive force in the world all right gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guest today in chicago washington and in toronto and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. download the official ati application to your cell phone choose your language stream quality and enjoy your favorites. if you're away from your television or it just doesn't matter how would your mobile device you can watch on t.v. anytime anywhere.

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