there is a chance they will shoot their own dog in the middle of the night and other people are so concerned with safety and are so full of fear for their fellow man that they'd rather disarm everyone and leave all the weapons in the hands of the criminals or have them legal or not anyways and in the hands of the government who was seems pretty happy to use force at home and abroad i don't know i'd rather risk the unpredictable actions of some idiots out there in society but at least have the ability defend myself and have some control over my life and a means to resist oppression but that's just my opinion.

hello and welcome to cross talk on here all about separate but equal more and more europeans are rethinking the pillars of the modern nation state there is why the agreement of the sovereignty of states must be respected but what about the growing issue of self-determination if a population wants to create their own state why should. you cross out the modern nation state i'm joined by christian winning in berlin he is the secretary general of the union of european federalists in belfast we have anthony was out of he is a political commentator and a former irish political activist and in munich we crossed the jose newness he is a professor at the department of modern american history at the university of santiago de compostela all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want christian if i go to you first so we're returning

to an age of nationalism a new nationalism considering what's going over going on in europe. we're talking about the separatism that we see the so-called vulcanization of europe and all over the world we have these driving's but i believe that we are getting into a conservation of expression of the european union as as the other regions in the world see they can't cope together. there are only two or three states but they have to be a real region to count in the world on a global scale ok so that means everything's fine in the european union well everything's fine so far in the european union we know that we have a development going through at the moment we have to overcome a crisis we have separatist movements but they all agree that we have to solve the crisis on a european federal level and i think we'll hold onto that for a while tony what do you think about that is there agreement well i would disagree with the release to both britain and ireland for example and scaf of the moment is

not quite clear what the starvation separate us want with relation to foreign policy and in particular the security policies that britain's associated with because as you may well know britain has its polaris fleet. in scotland itself and the majority of scottish people by tradition would be left wing and are certainly not party to the british foreign policy at the moment so there's a serious political issue there. ok jose what do you think about this i mean where is the continent going is it going to get stronger and stronger because it looks like there's a lot of people are not very happy well here's where this may be and the lies for an hour but the point of view or for an answer at the open of you and me for an hour but there is nothing against the creation of a new nation states provided that the formulation. i mean. and dependence referendum is sanctioned by a qualified maybe already of people i think that european union should simply accept this a for are there i think open a feel we may as sort of see i mean from

a different perspective a historian say yeah that being several waves of separatism we get which actually. have been produced through the twentieth century after the end of world war after cycle where war after eighty nine i mean we actually had to believe that he's thirty had called to an end but he story continues and goes on i'm from tears are not always just about always the same question it's a really good point i mean over the centuries even in europe we have more and more countries i mean why stop the process. no i told them to agree peter with what antony said well i just want to go i just want to go ahead yeah i know that my point is that in a free empire i we're not talking about a european nation we're talking about a federal you know which we will be something like empire has been in the past in a modern empire you need to let people come to you by attraction and not by all

pression and that's the key issue so of course people can make their choice and they have i mean we can have a european federation with fifty states it's just getting more complicated it's not building a problem for the democracy that is my point ok well tony is the european union democratic i mean why do some people want to leave because i mean is it better to have your own nation state i think actually there is an understatement of the complexity of this situation for example it's quite clear that when polls were taken the majority of people in britain itself were totally opposed to the iraqi war and yet tony blair prime minister that time took the country into war the same thing would apply in scotland and i think you know particularly here in ireland where we have had a conflict for about thirty forty years which to some degree still continues even this week we have had several riots in belfast with many many policemen injured political offices burned dein the situation is much more more complicated than

people generally believe europe itself i do not think is democratic because we continually hear for example that in germany the majority of german people are not in favor of germany building like greece so we get politicians constantly overruling the people of arizona if you take for example scotland as a specific example i would suggest there that the people of scotland culturally totally separate from the people of england it's not only the political level but the savings are made in westminster which are not accepted by the people of scotland and i think one has to acknowledge that not only within britain. including scotland northern ireland wales but particularly in europe itself if you take for example the baltic states three small countries that have a smaller population in total in ireland and yet the european union favored their total separation from the soviet union and supported them but i think that there's a degree of high-pockets say it all in my opinion simply is dictated by the

strategic and all of the either the european major parcels germany britain or the united states so i think we have to look at the reality of the situation it's not the actual world where we're living in a pure democracy where people say oh grant freedom to everyone there's total high-pockets say and contradiction to the world at the moment with relation to the formation of small nation states because they want to look at spain i mean why should the richest part of spain pay for the rest of the country if they want to be on their own. well we put the question another way around the why why don't they feel they have to share their solidarity with other parts of the country i mean you can't reproduce the argument. within these nations as well and the poorest part of catalonia i mean sustained by the roots aspire of petroleum i think this is part partially a wishful thinking i mean and he has to do with the legitimisation of the political system on the lank hands and with a shot at radicalization of nationalist demands on the other hand which actually

got not to be separated from the prisoners of course those that are particularly affected by konami economic crisis and well what i really i'm really a skeptic about the possibilities of determination to short term and to solve the real problems of people from that the law from the basque country i think that normative problem we have to face is that how stylish which is the barrier or whether it's the worry or a referendum and the people's way it has to sort of parsing rather to legitimize the creation of the new nation state i mean it is respect that totally agree with tony and i think they were probably at this in the at the very nature and it has to continue to lead to more critique the real functioning of some europeans to do is still quite far from real democracy and many people free in europe still believe

that. is a kind of call for the regime of a lose cause o.c.a. tional. ally on this of nation states that negotiates and back again in our day to achieve sometimes percentages of power within europe and you know that despair that and nothing but i think that the process of for the recession from below should be accompanied by a process for all of for that alleviation from the globe ok i mean let's take a look at the euros i mean once you're in it it's a straight jacket you can't get at it you don't have much control over your economy that's one of the complaints. well that's a false complaint you have to have to see what is your currency and what is the economy you have to see the benchmark we just i had had a report yesterday in german t.v. that showed how many countries in the european union are competing to each other along with the tax system so i have to tell you again that i still agree with both of my other guests in that in that broadcast because i am totally for

a european democracy but i'm a representative of a civil society who says there is no real democracy yet but if you see the way that we are going the last sixty years we are. as i said an empire of peace traction people come and people don't go or the only people that has so far had a problem with it is maybe greenland and that is that is an example really out of history so something has to be clear at the moment we talking about a european european union that have been tremendously successful one even the nobel prize for peace and then we have to get the next step which is a real good european democracy then if you know where your money goes you will bail out the other countries and then of course you have a leadership that kemah posed to some public opinion such as in germany they want their deaths i mean. they have been in. the euro we have well you're really. in it stagnant and stagnant and it doesn't have

much better future ok go ahead. well i would i think be in favor of the european union on a low i believe in you know the private separate development the various ethnic groups throughout europe and i dress particular situation here in ireland separatist movements did not necessarily equate with isolationist policies and i mean i would be a very strong european and a low i would argue strongly and support the people of scotland for their independent parliament does not mean and it does not follow that the people of scotland will want to be totally isolated from the european union i think the economic realities that we live under forced us to live together and cooperate because i know for sure that i mean our major competitor i always focus on america i don't think america is satisfied the way that europe and i think the various classes have learned over the last number of years that would suggest that america and many ways undermines the idea of united europe because

a united europe potentially and a number of years will be a stronger economic unit than the united states when we'll see what they were you think about that because the outlook isn't good the economic reality is so here i don't know whether to meet or their borders or europe they are throughout the world i mean you have recessions internationally so i don't think we should focus on the situation in europe and say oh it's all doom and gloom i'm actually very very hopeful of a bright future a strong economic europe. ok we're going to greenwood on that one there i'd gentleman we're going to get away sorry got to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on separatism stay with are. we going to leave the only thing you want. is or.

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welcome back to crossfire you well we're talking about separatism. ok christian and i go back to you in berlin you're the general secretary of the union of european federalists when people join the european union joining a federal union people because you know what a lot of people will say is that they lost more and more of their freedoms to make decisions about their economies civil society six cetera. well i totally disagree to that i mean of course the european union has to be based on subsidy or it's a principle which means that the decisions are made close as possible to the citizens on the other hand. is that the case song she would say is that the case let me finish all right go ahead yeah yeah of course about dontcha think that. in

a case that a federal union existed with a federal strong budget that the sovereignty of the european citizens overall would be better than we have now in that crisis we are all victims at the moment because we do not have a fully fledged. my question is that people join to create something like the united states. yeah i mean they have a line they join it to create a united states of europe that has to be discussed i'm sorry i don't hang yes there is no alternative to that and if they don't want to be. bound to a federal union or a european union or a state of the united states of europe they can of course leave or negotiate the treaties so ok tony i mean i'm not saying the united states of europe is a bad idea but the people sign up for it. i think in ireland and they sleep many many people who are reluctant to both north and site in this country and we join the european union but i think very very quickly people realize the economic

benefits you know we have a state of the gulf you know free trade across borders and i think one of the most important things is that when we're speaking about the various you know groups ethnic groups of people around europe i don't say that anyone has lost their ethnic identity their cultural identity and certainly if anything in ireland today the cultural identity of people the stronger since we joined the european union so i mean i don't think people here are not a reluctant members i think they realize that in the global economy that we have today we have no choice but to work together in cooperation federalism even in ireland today we have still got our two countries but i would ultimately say that we will have a federal solution here within ireland because we don't have any actual border any longer and i go from here to england there's no border to go from here to france of the border and i think what we always must remember is that people of europe do not want world war three in europe we have much more in common with each other and to work with each other for the future of our children than to argue over minor points

of national difference tony d. what do you think the possibility of conflict is in europe today i hate to hear this argument all the time. yeah i mean i mean i i think you know as we move forward i mean you know i lived in russia for a number of years and during the cold war period i think the majority of european people the wrong reasons feared russia and russians possibly feared the people of europe but now i look we do have these open borders i think we have a greater unity and i think that when we look at the global picture i think that other nations other states other global states are actually quite envious of our potential unity and so i think the actual chance of any future war in europe is greatly reduced and could leverage if there are going to keep pressing this point here i mean did in the european union that people sign up for it when they joined it because it's turning out to be a different project now well what i'm saying is that i mean it's a nice probably if they were to see europe as a father of probably and but the problem is that there are as many for there are

probably as many for mothers as for there are countries in the world that's for quality so far as we have to define our model for them is a well that is for me as much as to be based on the existing nation states or on the other whether we have to actually. call this phase of historic a nation state i do think about new forms of social and political organization and i think in this respect. and i think that the night there was a way for optimism and i call it the way it's. so very the will to be actually led from would be attack it from below from and from the world so that nature as stable as it were a duly disappear i would rather leave. this nation as i'm reading this and star. would have a new place in a unified europe i think now many people in the catalonia scott the langley contrary in flanders have simply realize is that you've made the states in order to

join the club and the club is defined by several rules and these rules are quiet. clear and simple. and you know is a causal ca policy where the states have to to make a world where do they have to admit power and everything is decided on the top and not from below and they see in this respect i actually enjoy my my partner. for the european union is steel is a fact that it was characterized by the starting democracy is democratic deficit which means. to have a domestic growth of for the future i don't really think there is going to be a conflict there's going to be an at the conflict but what i really thing is that i find a result a paradoxical final result of this wave of this period of time a crisis could be the strengthening of the nation state and i think it will be a step backward and not a step forward ok a lot of people say the solution for europe's problems is more

europe ok but a lot of people on the ground are saying enough europe how do you square the circle well you need leadership of course the anxiety tells you i go back to the place where i feel comfortable the comfort zone is the nation state so far of course you have to be sure that there is a solution with more europe and not even more trouble i strongly believe in an economic crisis if america and. the names of the leaders are say we need to more coordinate these things people would agree and you make policy by policy you see that north africa immigration is not an italian problem so you don't make a national competence but european you see that foreign policy cannot be national nationally let's say steer only but european wide and step by step people will understand that this solution is more europe ok let me tell you how do you explain

people in spain for example when there are fifty percent unemployment for young people the you need more europe. well you know i think if the spanish people look at the successful relationship of europe that's where they where they have to take their model from obviously both greece portugal and i would say it's beyond certainly as well they need i mean i remember a lot of these companies that worked in them i think they need to reform their economies particularly greek economy a very very familiar with the situation there is disastrous and they do need in greece more european standard and it may well be a better pill for the swallow but they are going to have to swallow that pill i mean we have had to compromise in ireland over many many things and i think it's been for our benefit we have had no riots in the streets here over austerity we have had a financial crisis and we're just getting all of that we know that if we are to succeed we have to learn to compete economically with the major countries of europe

whether it's germany italy france britain and i i have no regrets in saying and i don't feel like losing any of my nice solid answer day by suggesting that we become more european but the one thing i think that we do always need to make sure of is that the regions the smaller regions of independent states or individual states need to have correct representation and i don't think one can assume for one moment that westminster london can rule for the people of scotland and the people of scotland need to have their own assembly the people of wales need to have their own assembly and they need to have a much much greater sense of autonomy then takes into the gray areas of foreign policy and the military situation these are the real issues to be decided in the future but i do believe that those countries in europe that have field should not be saddled with failure they should try and take the lessons. from the more successful states of europe because if you want to jump in on that i would and i ask all of you about how globalization is affected this here because everyone says

bigger is better. we look at trading blocks and what not here. you may where you may have many of those were smaller is not only nice at but better i mean smaller states like switzerland like. to monaco are extremely rich and prosperous i mean what they really think is that we lack of strong leadership that's had severe i've already been pointed out but second we need a project within we need to procure that may create an illusion that may create a perspective what to call for most of the people we need paying off a strong definition of the entity and i think one of the problems of europe and entity is that this compose is made up of so very different things and very different elements and historical roots in chorus that it's very difficult to find a common other or even a common set of values and i think i mean it well it looks at the symbols that had

been developed by the europe and europe where most of the week i mean there are unable to create passion to create unable to create. feelings so to speak emotions and emotions are very important for. maintenance and for the long term. survival of polytheists and of political communities i have this respect i mean ethnic nationalism are having now the periphery so. we would always take the lead because they have a stronger. weapon so to speak they have a stronger you're originally going to you don't go to go back to prison in berlin again last year here what about that i didn't the issue european identity i think is a really interesting point. it's a very difficult point peter as well i mean of course i always say i can be very annoyed bottom gutenburg oberlin and i can be a german and i cannot be europe or european it's called we are together for our

common good soul what's the exclusion of it i can i can have a european identity and i need to be able to have one everyone who works abroad sees that how many much more we have to learn until we are european and of course our kids should have the opportunity to be really european like they're swimming in a pool and of course there must be a european identity i'm not sure if we should compare this to that let's say nationalistic reading nationalistic bound to an army bound to a football team type of nationalism identity like we had it in our nation states let's keep that for the nation states why are we not looking too forward to a future government we very rarely if you don't apologise it is. very much for us fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests in brussels belfast and in munich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here next time and remember crosstalk the . only reason we feel.

is a. government no longer represents the people. the people. we. are. the way our economic system currently is not.

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don't speak. and i'm a. little. luke moved. more news today in holland says once again flared up. these are the.