well no i'd rather risk the unpredictable actions of some idiots out there in society but at least have the ability defend myself and have some control over my life and a means to resist oppression but that's just my opinion. mission . critical patients free. or charges free. range month free. free. you free. download free books videos for your media projects and free media. dot com.

the only thing. is there's. a low in welcome to cross talk about separate but equal more and more europeans are rethinking the pillars of the modern nation state there is why the agreement to disarm states must be respected but what about the growing issue of self-determination if a population wants to create their own state why should. you cross out the modern nation state i'm joined by christian winning in berlin he is the secretary general of the union of european federalists in belfast we have anthony rosato he is a political commentator and former irish political activist and in munich we crossed the jose newness he is a professor of the department of modern american history at the university of

santiago de compostela all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want christian if i go to you first so we're returning to an age of nationalism a new nationalism considering what's going over going on in europe we're talking about the separatism that we see the so-called vulcanization of europe and all over the world we have these strivings but i believe that we are getting into consultation of special of the european union as as the other regions in the world see they can't cope together. where there are only two or three states but they have to be a real region to count in the world on a global scale ok so that means everything's fine in the european union well everything's fine so far in the european union we know that we have a development going through at the moment we have to overcome a crisis we have separatist movements but they all agree that we have to solve the crisis on the european federal level and i think we'll hold onto that for a while tony what do you think about that is there agreement. well i would disagree

with the release to both britain and ireland for example in scotland at the moment is not quite clear what the separate us what with relation to foreign policy and in particular the security policies that britain is associated with because as you may well know britain has its polarised fleet. in scotland itself and the majority of scottish people by tradition would be left wing and are certainly not you know party to the british foreign policy at the moment so there's a serious political issue there ok jose what do you think about this i mean where is the continent going is it going to get stronger and stronger because it looks like there's a lot of people are not very happy well the thing is. this may be allies for a normative point of view or for an answer at the top of you i mean for a normative point of view i think there is nothing against the creation of a new nation states provided that a majority the formulation i would use with that i mean. and depend as a referendum is sanctioned by

a qualified majority of people i think european union should simply accept this from theoretical point of view we may as sort of see i mean from a different perspective a historian say yeah that being several waves of separatism . which actually. have been produced through the twentieth century after the end of world war after the second world war after eighty nine i mean we actually had to believe that history had come to an end but he story continues and goes on i'm from tears are not it always has to have been always the same question it's a really good point i mean over the centuries even in europe we have more and more countries i mean why stop the process. no i totally agree peter with what anthony said well i just want to go i just want to go ahead i know the my point is that in a free empire i was not talking about a european nation we're talking about

a federal union which we call which will be something like empire has been in the past in a modern empire you need to let people come to you by attraction and not by all pression and that's the key issue so of course people can make their choice and they have i mean we can have a european federation with fifty states it's just getting more complicated it's not building a problem for the democracy that is my point ok tony is the european union democratic i mean why do some people want to leave because i mean isn't it better to have your own nation state i think actually there's another statement of the complexity of this situation for example it's quite clear that when polls are taken the majority of people in britain itself or talk to be opposed to the iraqi war and yet tony blair prime minister that time took the country into the war the same thing with apply in scotland and i think you know particularly here and ireland where we have had conflicts for about thirty forty years which to some degree still continues

even this week we have had several riots in belfast with many many police men injured political offices burnt die and the situation is much more complicated than people generally believe europe itself i do not think is democratic because we continually hear for example that in germany the majority of german people are not in theory of germany building i greece so we get politicians constantly overruling the people of arizona if you take for example scotland as a specific example i would suggest that the people of scotland to cultural a totally separate from the people of england not only at the political level but the savings are made in westminster which are not accepted by the people of scotland and i think one has to acknowledge that not only within britain. including scotland northern ireland wales but particularly in europe itself if you take for example the baltic states three small countries that have a smaller population in total in ireland and yet the european union favored their

total separation from the soviet union and supported them but i think that there's a degree of high-pockets say it all in my opinion simply is dictated by the strategic and all of the either the european major parts that germany britain or the united states so i think we have to look at the reality of the situation it's not the actual world where we're living in a pure democracy where people say oh grand freedom to everyone there's total high-pockets say and contradiction to the world at the moment with relation to the formation of small nation states because they want to look at spain i mean why should the richest part of spain pay for the rest of the country if they want to be on their own. well we put the question another way around the way why don't they feel they have to share their story directly with other parts of the country i mean you can reproduce. within these nations as well and the poorest part of catalonia i mean sustained by the roots aspire of catalonia i think this is part to partially

a wishful thinking i mean and he has to do with legitimisation of the political system on the lank hands and with a shot at radicalization of nationalist demands on the other hand which actually can not to be separated from the presence of course those is that particular affected by konami overall economic crisis and well what i really i'm really a skeptic about the possibilities of determination to short term and to solve the real problems of people from that the law from the legion from the basque country i think that normative problem we have to face is that how to stop leash which is the barrier or whether it's the worry or a referendum. and the people's way it has to sort of parsing rather to legitimize the creation of a new nation state i mean it is respect that totally agree with tony and i think they were probably at this inequality by nature and it has to continue to lead to

more critique the real functioning of some europeans to do shows is still quite far from a real democracy and many people free in europe still believe that. is a kind of call for the regime of a lose cause o.c.a. tional. ally on this of nation states that negotiates and back again in our day to achieve sometimes percentages of power within europe and you know that despair that and nothing but i think that the process of for the recession from below should be accompanied by a process for all of for that of the station from the globe ok i mean let's take a look at the euros i mean once you're in it it's a straight jacket you can't get at it you don't have much control over your economy that's one of the complaints. well that's a false complaint you have to have to see what is your currency and what is the economy you have to see the benchmark we just i had had a report yesterday in german t.v. that showed how many countries in the european union are competing to each other

along with the tax system so i have to tell you again that i still agree with both of my other guests in that in that broadcast because i am totally for a european democracy but i'm a representative of a civil society who says there is no real democracy yet but if you see the way that we are going the last sixty years we are. as i said an empire of peace traction people come and people don't go or the only people that has so far had a problem with it is maybe greenland and that is that is an example really out of history so something has to be clear at the moment we talking about a european european union that have been tremendously successful one even the noble prize for peace and then we have to get the next step which is a real good european democracy then if you know where your money goes you will bail out the other countries and then of course you have a leadership that kemah posed to some public opinions such as in germany they want their deaths i mean. they have been. for the euro we

have well you're really. in it stagnant and stagnant and it doesn't have much but you're ok go ahead. well i would i think be in favor of the european union on a low i believe in you know the private separate develop of the various ethnic groups throughout europe and i dress particular situation here in ireland separatist movements did not necessarily equate with isolationist policies and i mean i would be a very strong european and of though i would argue strongly and support the people of scotland for their independent parliament it does not mean and it does not follow that the people of scotland want to be totally isolated from the european union i think the economic realities that we live under forced us to live together and cooperate because i know for sure that i mean our major competitor i always focus on america i don't think america is satisfied the united europe and i mean i

think the various lessons they've learned over the last number of years would suggest that america in many ways undermines the idea of united europe because a united europe potentially and a number of years will be a stronger economic unit than the united states when we'll see what they were you think about that because the outlook isn't good the economic reality i reckon i'm afraid so here i'm going to remain as a borders of europe they are throughout the world i mean you have recessions internationally so i don't think we should focus on the situation in europe and say oh it's all doom and gloom i'm actually very very hopeful of a bright future a strong economic europe. ok we got agreement on that one there i'd gentleman we're going to go to a story to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on separatism stay with our. beliefs. as a. wealthy

british. markets. wind out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's concert for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into a report on our government no longer represents the people the people are going to take the terms. we.

believe in the traditional putting the money. the way our economic system currently he's not going to. play. right. from the stupid question.

please don't talk t.v. dot com. welcome back to cross talk that you know about to remind you we're talking about separatism. ok christian and i go back to you in berlin you're the general secretary of the union of european federalists when people joined the european union where they were joining a federal union and he because you know what a lot of people will say is that they lost more and more of their freedoms to make decisions about their economies civil society six cetera well i totally

disagree to that i mean of course the european union has to be based on subsidy or it's a principle which means that the decisions are made close as possible to the citizens on the other hand only is that a case is that the case song sure thing is that the case let me finish all right go ahead yeah yeah of course about dontcha think that. in a case that a federal union existed with a federal strong budget that the sovereignty of the european citizens overall would be better than we have now in that crisis we are all victims at the moment because we do not have a fully fledged my prescription my clear my question is that people join to create something like the united states. yeah i mean they have a line they join it to create a united states of europe that has to be discussed i'm sorry i'm saying yes there is no alternative to that and if they don't want to be. bound to a federal union or european union or state of the united states of europe they can

of course leave or negotiate the treaties so ok tony i mean i'm not saying the united states of europe is a bad idea but the people signed up for it. i think in ireland and they sleep many many people who are reluctant to both north and so i think this country when we join the european union but i think very very quickly people realize the economic benefits you know we've been safely got you know free trade across borders and i think one of the most important things is that when we're speaking about the various you know groups ethnic groups of people around europe i don't see that anyone has lost their ethnic identity their cultural identity and certainly if anything in ireland today the cultural identity of people the stronger since we joined the european union so i don't think people here are not a reluctant members i think they realize that in the global economy that we have today we have no choice but to work together in cooperation federalism even in ireland today we have still got our two countries but i would ultimately say that we will have a federal solution here with an ireland because we don't have any actual border any longer and i go from here to england there's no border to go from here to france

there's no border and i think what we always must remember is that people of europe do not want world war three in europe we have much more in common with each other and to work with each other for the future of our children to argue over minor points of national difference tony did what do you think the possibility of conflict is in europe today i hate to hear this argument all the time. yeah i mean i mean. i think you know as we move forward i mean you know i lived in russia for a number of years and during the cold war period i think the majority of european people for the wrong reasons feared russia and russians possibly feared the people of europe but now i look we do have these open borders i think we have a greater unity and i think that when we look at the global picture i think that other nations other states other global states are actually quite envious of our potential unity and so i think the actual chance of any future war in europe is

greatly reduced and could leverage if there are going to keep pressing this point here i mean did in the european union that people sign up for it when they joined it because it's turning out to be a different project now. what i'm saying is that i mean it's a nice for you to see europe as a further a problem but the problem is that there are as many for there are probably as many for mothers as for there are countries in the world that's where our quality so far as we have to define our model for them is a well that is for as much as to be based on the existing nation states or on the other whether we have to actually. call this phase of historic a nation state i do think about new forms of social and political organization and i think in this respect. and i think it is that the night there was a way for optimism and i call it the way it's. so very deep would be actually would be attacked from below. and from the world so that nature stable as it were

a duly disappear i would rather you do it stateless nations and regions and starr. would have a new place in a unified europe i think now many people in the catalonia scott the language country or in flanders have simply realize is that you've made the states in order to join the club and the club is defined by several rules and this rules are quiet. clear and simple. and you know is a causal ca policy where the states have to be made war where do they have to to make power and everything is decided on the top and not from below and they see in this respect they actually enjoy my partner. for the european union is still is a fact that it was characterized by this democracy that democratic deficit which means. to have a domestic grocer for the future i don't really think there is going to be

a conflict there's going to be and as the conflict but what i really thing is that i find a result a paradoxical find a result of this wave of this period of economic crisis could be the strengthening of the nation state and i think it will be a step backward and not a step forward ok a lot of people say the solution for europe's problems is more europe ok but a lot of people on the ground are saying enough europe how do you square the circle well you need leadership of course the anxiety tells you i go back to the to the place where i feel comfortable the comfort zone is the nation state so far of course you have to show that there is a solution with more europe and not even more trouble i strongly believe in an economic crisis if i'm going to america and. the names of the leaders are say we need to more coordinate these things people would agree and you make policy by policy you see that north africa immigration is not an italian problem so you

don't make it national competence but european you see that foreign policy cannot be national nationally let's say steer only but european wide and step by step people will understand that this solution is more europe ok let me tell you how do you explain people in spain for example when there's fifty percent unemployment for young people the you need more europe. well you know i think if the spanish people look at the successful nations of europe that's where they where they have to take their model from obviously both greece portugal and i would say speed and certainly as well they need i mean i am familiar with all of these countries and worked in them i think they knew the need to reform their economies particularly greek economy and very very familiar with it and the situation there is disastrous and they do need in greece more european standard and it may well be a better pill for the swallow but they are going to have to swallow

a pill i mean we have had to compromise in ireland over many many things and i think it's been for our benefit we have had no riots in the streets here over austerity we have had a financial crisis and we're just getting all of that we know that if we are to succeed we have to learn to compete economically with the major countries of europe whether it's germany italy france britain and i i have no regrets in saying and i don't feel like losing any of my nice solid answer day by suggesting that we become more european but the one thing i think that we do always need to make sure of is that the regions the smaller regions of independent states or individual states need to have correct representation and i don't think one can assume for one moment that westminster london can rule for the people of scotland and the people of scotland need to have their own assembly the people of wales need to have their own assembly and they need to have a much much greater sense of autonomy then takes into the gray areas of foreign policy and the military situation these are the real issues to be decided in the

future but i do believe that those countries in europe that have field should not be saddled with failure they should try and take the lessons. from the more successful states of europe because if you want to jump in on that i mean i can i ask all of you about how globalization is affected this here because everyone says bigger is better. we look at trading blocks and what not. you may where you may have many of those were smaller is not only nice that by the better i mean smaller states like switzerland like. monaco are extremely rich and prosperous and it what they really think is that will lack of ferrous strong leadership that's has been i've already been pointed out but second we need a project within we need to procure that may create an illusion that may create a perspective what to call for most of the people we need paying off

a strong definition of the entity and i think one of the problems of european entity is that this compose is made up of so very different things are very different elements and he started in chorus that it's very difficult to find a common other or even a common set of values and i think i mean it well it looks at the symbols that had been the better lot but the europe and europe where most of the week i mean there are unable to create passion to create unable to create. feelings so to speak emotions and emotions are very important for. maintenance and for the long term. survival of politics and of political communities i have this respect i mean ethnic nationalism are everything and now he's off the periphery so. we will always take the lead because they have a stronger. weapon so to speak to have a stronger you're originally going to you you're going to go back to christian in

berlin again last year here what about that i didn't he issue european identity i think it's a really interesting point. it's a very difficult point peter as well i mean of course i always say i can be a very an all bottom good and i can be a german and i cannot be european european it's called we are together for a common good so what's the exclusion of it i can i can have a european identity and i need to deal with we have one everyone who works abroad sees that how many much more we have to learn until we are european and of course our kids should have the opportunity to be really european like they're swimming in a pool and of course then it must be a european identity i'm not sure if we should compare this to that let's say nationalistic reading nationalistic bound to an army bound to a football team type of nationalism identity like we had it in our nation states let's keep that for the nation states why are we not looking too forward to

a future government we very rarely don't apologise it is. very much for us fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests in brussels belfast and in munich and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the phoenix time and remember prosperity. is or. whether you die from high or to the death. touch the power of the wind or drift. of the currents. being well prepared is

a must and if you're lucky. you'll never forget your. perience we only need a film a screen that's going to be have a. simplified see a full and below the ice on our t.v. . you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for life you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture.

me it is easy to. meet. such. as you. just go for the full should. you look to the.