that means you can jump in anytime you want pepe escobar fine go to you first how would you describe iraq today because it's i notice something you wrote not too long ago it's going to dropped out of mainstream media story nobody's really interested in but there are a lot of fault lines as i mentioned in the introduction yes absolutely first let's put the whole situation to complex peter this is the biggest man made you many terry and disaster of our times period nothing compares to it it's one point two you rock one point two million iraqis that least dead killed that directly or indirectly by the vision and occupation over five million refugees there was a cultural cleansing of iraq as well intellectuals were killed libraries were looted museums were looted the country was vulcanize it became a gigantic are you all right i mean i guess we'll get to all of these topics related to all of these topics or hang on but why is it out of the media spotlight

. because i know for a it's what america to conduct the bring you know from the bring you washington in fact and conduct live soul searching why this thing happened in iraq in has been happening for twenty years in fact seen since the early ninety's it's absolutely unbearable you have to imagine the effects of the un us sanctions during the clinton administration you have to study even they have to go wars you have to study the effects of shock and awe why shock and awe was a strategy concocted to be ok. it's very interesting to the probably. nobody wants to do this in american war well maybe because nobody wants to talk about iraq and syria in the same sentence sami where do you came out on this what's going on in iraq right now well i think i do agree with. some asian of the

consequences of the iraq occupation u.s. led occupation and in fact it's a common mistake to say that the occupation of iraq has completely ended i think the occupation has left a lot of fingers in the iraqi scene and iraqi society and there is still quite a strong powerful american presence for their direct or indirect through some of the iraqi political forces this scene in iraq is quite disastrous in addition to what they said iraq is experiencing syria's internal haemorrhage goes by the occupation which transformed variation differences between people who are these differences are religious ethnic sect type differences differences that many societies have but when differences elevated to animosity i'm

friction and blood at. this is what the occupation did to the iraqi mosaic. galvan eyes to all the extreme forces reactionary forces and society in such a way that they have enormously weakened iraqi society there is also one one thing which is quite important and doesn't hit the news headlines which is they call these side and killings and deaths in iraq for example water sewage gets thrown into the rivers because of lack of electricity this is causing water borne diseases hundreds of thousands of children are falling victim to quite serious water diseases the in the health the the state health service has collapsed that j.k. tional system has almost collapsed with with some serious defects unemployment is

over fifty percent of the adult population. part of the occupation supporters propaganda was to help iraqi women while iraqi women don't dare walk the streets at night so all together the occupation is still a living phenomena dora i let me jump in you know it's really going to be an ordering of it by the media. pretty bleak picture there are very bleak. it is a very bleak picture and unfortunately what we seeing is that iraq is after syria if not already it's already becoming an area where great powers in the region are trying to weaken iran i personally don't think it's a great mystery that we're seeing all these sunni demonstrations in sunni parts of iraq these days. you know that iraq iran's competitors in the region we should

mainly saudi arabia and the persian gulf countries they see runs hand is weakening in syria they see a link between iran iraq and syria now they're going after iran's influence in iraq and now we see that there has been recently demonstrations in sunni areas of iraq and according to human rights watch has been great abuses of human rights here and there are never out in happens to define of these things would have been happen would have happened if there were the invasion had happened right i mean iraq was one country before the invasion and there sleep well in florida hand they say is out way while i can say it i could be wrong but i can say it happy what do you think well for me going to papeete then ok ok i like to where i like to add to both our guest said which is absolutely correct by the the way. initial in polls of after shock and awe. by the absolutely inflame of coalition

provisional authority was stupid to sunni is that going to this was the way to balkanize the country at the same time a ground zero of disaster capitalism and you have to divide and subdivide the populations so they applied more or less the lebanese model so it was assumed as against shiites and sunnis shiites and kurds all fighting against each other and this is what happened nowadays the country for all practical purposes formerly iraq is totally balkanized if you go to the mountains in iraqi kurdistan is another police it's like the caucasus already has nothing to do with them as i put them in planes if you go to the solves the shiites live in more or less apart from back that inclusive except the oil industry which is centered in basra which is control of course by baghdad and it's now exporting as much as it was exporting during saddam and then you have the triangle of death the sunni triangle province west of

baghdad where we have. a simmering i would see this is there's a simmering civil war in fact against the shiite dominated government in baghdad. which is consider like a new saddam or a new dictator there are nuances to that in many aspects yes in some aspects not at all but the problem is he has a very good relationship with. i would say the military dictatorship of that as i describe it in tehran and also good relations with syria and with her as well he don't forget that moloch you spent a lot of his exile years in damascus so this is very important and the sunni triangle some quote men there is dead were part of that war against the americans in this sunni triangle they'd be they crisscross the border. because the border between iraq and syria that isn't is there is not a border i was just there somewhere right back in the make let me go back to jerusalem i'm going man let me go back to trying to destabilize the syrian i come

in that ok go ahead sami jumping ahead then we're going to do some good so i mean yeah i think there's. there is a bit of a simplification regarding so never says she saw i think this is highly highly oversimplified i mean very few people might be abroad know that outside of iraq that all iraqi tribes not a single tribe is not mixed sim issue so the there is of the tribe are responsible for both shia and sunni most iraqi cities have presence of both both sects so to depict this scene as a conflict between shia and sunni oversimplifies the situation there are a sectarian political parties that use ethnicity sack to use the religion to further their nest if you like but the communities in iraq there is no

actual street street level animosity between these sects and religions and this has been a characteristic of iraq for many hundreds of years where there isn't a history there has never been a history of communal conflict there's been a history of this state of free jeems or pressing this ethnicity like the kurdish people or pressing the shia hour or certainly not i want i want to go to jerusalem before we go to the break here. is iraq a failed state or becoming a failed state. i don't think i don't think iraq is a failed state i think he rocked as many problems but i don't think it is a failed state and i just want to point out your previous point peter you make it sound like that the sunni shiite problem in iraq only came about after the u.s. invasion as much as on the. warrant such and he was

railing sorry did i was saying was massacring kurds saddam hussein was massacring shiites so i think you're pretty but it was a sovereign country and it was a sovereign country that's the difference. it was a sovereign country but he was still killing the different six we're not in washington in the making wasn't like he said to please when you have. and i did something that's been happening for many years ok pepe jump in before we go to the saddam hussein was using saudi money to invade iran which is a shiite country of course it was hugo has half a chance in look everybody has a very good point in this discussion in terms of the oversimplification i agree in fact who wants to oversimplification the americans because as long as the peace soon is against shiites they have a perfect excuse to be in baghdad in that the vatican size embassy all right let me jump in here we're going to go to one short break we're going chartering chance and after that short provoke and in your discussion on iraq stay with marty.

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well all things considered mind you we're talking about what's happening in iraq today.

ok during the break sam you said you wanted to jump in so go right ahead. yes i think in trying to specify what the u.s. led occupation did in iraq and how it destroyed iraq one is not trying to say that saddam's regime was a bed of roses. dictatorship it was a dictatorship that killed many thousands of people or to wage the nag a war of aggression against iran etc etc but the people most people in iraq who are not say politically active directly against the regime at least let a semi normal life there was electricity there was food distribution children went to the school without being kidnapped the people's daily lives were not so deadly and this is what the occupation did to iraq so one one describes the consequences of the u.s. led occupation one is not justifying saddam's crimes one is pointing out that

a country like iraq a great civilization has been brought down to its knees by this direct occupation the brutality of the occupation sort of past saddam's regime the tortures in the prisons of our book raeburn of a secret prison prisons sort of past what saddam's torture chambers did so one is trying to see where iraq has travelled following the thirteen years of sanctions following the the brutal occupation and this is what we are trying to resolve in iowa as well what is the future for iraq having traveled this through this bloody carnage and the united states today it's trying to further destabilize iraq so that it can have a regime in baghdad that only says yes he what washington wants and this is not

easy to achieve that is why washington despite iraq occupying iraq. still facing enormous opposition within the country even within parties that have cooperated with washington in the past because society hates us domination hated occupation hated the sanctions so there is deep rooted opposition to u.s. influence and but the united states has not given up at once iraq to be a client hundred percent client state otherwise they are promising us that they will transform iraq to syria where it were a civil war or or a large scale fighting or kurds within the country there are terrorist groups already in iraq they have been active the occupation by the way brought terrorism to iraq there was not terrorism in the country in terms of these extremist theory type organizations and so forth so we need to find out to discover

where the iraqi people could go from here certainly the divisions being so that by the by the u.s. and its influence within iraq is leading the country into further disintegration ok all right there's a lot to chew on there i'd like to go to jerusalem right now again a failed state it sounds like to me mayor go ahead and i hear the pain in his voice because he's an iraqi and he loves this country and it's been oh he it pains him to to to see and hear what is happening to iraq but unfortunately something i think the situation's going to get worse now because as i mentioned before iraq is going to turn into a new area where. people are going to try to challenge iran's influence and the only way they going to do that is to bring more instability there prime minister nuri al maliki is seen as being close to iran and the saudis and the americans don't like that one bit specially to solve these and this is one of the reasons why we see instability in sunni areas and what really worries me is the recent called

by al qaeda. forces in iraq. sunni's to rise up and this is of course the last thing we can we can hope for the for those of us who want stability in iraq but just one more one more point i'd like to me you know i'm also an iranian i mean runyan and he's really not the most popular countries in the middle east right now but in terms of in terms of. iranian history one thing i have to say is that you know what the west did in iran the toppling of dick and and the history of the west what it did to iran i blame the west for many things but i also think that we do people of the middle east have to look at ourselves also to see where we can bring reform where we can bring change and where we can stop outside powers basically taking advantage from us for their own goals ok pepe it seems to me just means that it's like there is a great difficulty for the people of the middle east to assert themselves and remember this region was colonized god one i know i don't want to go about too much

into history but this is this is the reality that we have regions that were installed following world war one and the united states after world war two took over from the old colonial powers and they created within these societies fairly powerful political forces that that sure there are legions to true to the former colonial powers and to us imperialism and the intervention of awful u.s. led forces in these societies is the main factor in my opinion for destabilizing it doesn't mean i'll back it up in here let's go ahead happy because i think it is too much external intervention that's the problem not reform. we are paying the price of what happened one hundred years ago which was the betrayal of the great arab nation that would be merged after dmn the first world war and then france and

britain the colonial powers at the time they divided the middle east between them basically and we also at the same time paying the price of the cia facilitated coup against mossad there in iran in one nine hundred fifty three so when you have these two together in the whole in the whole region that is actually southwest asia that we call the middle east a westernized point of view of course which is wrong by the way. it's absolutely unsolvable and the new loan your power or new york alone imperialist power due west for the past forty fifty years what they have been doing is they are aligned with the most all to craft sick and retrograde form of islam that there is in the persian gulf monarchies the petrodollar monarchies and against emancipation of southwest asian populations as a whole this in my view is the key thing so both of our guests nailed it completely iran will never be totally independent because we're beyond call study imperialist

intervention and the same for the rest of southwest asia iraq jordan these are jordan is an artificial country completely and even egypt in the north east africa as well so what's going on there from the pentagon point of view and now from the middle east to to i'm sorry for mina as they call it middle east north africa from there my gratitude to the middle east is this the bill is ation of the ancient order but we need a gram shit to tell us the ancient order is gone but if you one has not emerged and the pentagon that wants to control the emergence of this new ward this is what is really horrible cannot cannot be and i mean go ahead. by the destabilization of the region and how much the peoples of the region have suffered . talking from israel and israel is not such

a such an innocent party in all of this i mean that. they occupied the lands of their neighboring. states they go into lebanon and bomb and strafe they they destroy they kill people in gaza palestinians in gaza and they do interfere in iraq as well as seymour hersh of the famous american jordan a sort of deal that israeli agents. go through iraqi kurdistan and to iran to conduct sabotage activities and gather intelligence. as part of their effort to to maybe in future attack attack iran their role and syria is now quite clear with a with a bomb or a bombing. yesterday or the day before yesterday and to and to syria so israel is a very close ally of the united states it's a forward military base practically for the united states and it is playing also a poisonous role in the region. the united gentlemen gentlemen if you don't get all

to one and i want mayor to be able to reply please do not jump in please do well in terms of israel having a close relations with the united states absolutely sammy says this is the lynchpin of israel's security and in terms of us having wars with other countries some of those wars were justified i think the six day war was justified because the arab countries around iran this wanted us wanted to throw us in the sea and this is what they were saying and that was a very justified war but israel's occupation of the west bank justified no i don't think it is justified and i want to state for the palestinian people because i don't think that anything is going to happen until the palestinian people have a state just like me as an israeli jew has a state we all have to have that right but in terms of you know blaming israel for what is happening in iraq sorry sir i mean there are other countries you should look at instead of israel in terms of all the misery that's been brought upon iraq you should look at the neighbors if you look at the saudis iran the u.s.

and in terms of paper saying that iran is in that region to not solve because of this because of because of the psychs because they agreement because of what happened the first well what i want our body that we're not that is not they are in the british under the british and the french did not even invent that the russians also for many years were attacking iran in the early nineteenth century to talk i'm in china going to stand treaty which were imposed against the. and that was totally forced upon iran because of russia's imperialist ambitions and the fact that it was playing a great power game is nothing new the russians were doing it before the british and the french did it afterwards which brings me back to my original point he has a semi we who is doing a good dancer will have a really nice day pepin take that's my point who's doing it today who said germany who rules where the united states and its allies are happy absolutely and the allies like a once again. the seven cent three medieval east house of solve which by the

way i assume you have read the latest recommendation by bruce riedel to president obama stay close to king abdullah otherwise there's going to be a lot of instability in the persian gulf but this is the heart of the whole matter dump the house of saud and seventy percent of the problems in southwest asia will be solved ok maira going to give you the last word in the program had twenty twenty seconds mayor go ahead fair time i think democracy depends on the people of the middle east outside powers doing to be seen but at the end of the day it's upon ourselves to look at that look at the people of egypt they had a democratic revolution without foreign interference i think other people can do it too all right gentlemen thank you for a fascinating discussion many thanks again i guess in london some follow and introduce them and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and we member crosstalk.

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