it becomes a problem for the international community and our smiley the state of mali is unable to do with it obviously there has to be international support and that can sometimes mean foreign intervention depending on the scenario at stake i mean in the case of mali at the ninth of january national committee had to really give it out and had to postpone every action till september two thousand and thirteen but then the jihadists decided to make an incursion and were heading towards but michel on the ninth of january when france decided that they were going to intervene on the tenth of january to stalk the cation and the advance towards about marcos so actually the jihadist. go to bomb our core is more or less a blessing in disguise because if they hadn't done that the whole war that given up on mali and had left to its fate until september twenty third take

a mighty. blessing and a spark disguised as kind of odd adel where do you come you know this it's a development issues of terrorism go. into a geographic and historic perspective. as we. understand. to establishing bases in the whole of the whole region which actually extends from sub-saharan africa although we do. every single. it would be jihadists who actually started it was thought that. the challenge of the legitimacy of governments. when the us intervention even if you go to nine eleven and new york which triggered the afghanistan war it was al qaida that.

chips in the seats of aid in the am and it was you had this where she started. the stability in somalia which lead to piracy so what some people would call intervention came as a result of jihadist terrorist attacks not the other way around ok you wouldn't say mali was an example of that though would you. well mally malley was a classic example like afghanistan somalia and yemen where you have if you have a snake problem. spirit and the central government did not respond you have a very large vast space with with sort of weak asunta loss already and then you have a military you've already admitted we in mali was you know i just it's. exemplar to

that coup and that is in. the end so in order to sort of learn from that it's not afghanistan and somalia and so on you have to rush to fill that vacuum and fortunately the only sort of reasonable three in power with democratic accountability that had bases in the region with the french and. almost no damage to the french market they drove eight hundred ma is. perfectly i mean the issue is which is a different issue anyway not to leave them when they're on the whole african sort of community have to all right well that you mentioned france it's going to remain you were in paris ok go ahead paris react to what you just heard. what i would like to have come from to compliment to you point of you stating what you mention saying that is terrorism is judges the major negative effect affecting the.

afghan population let's have in mind that what is going on sale is a long jewing instability and the judges are there because the. in the beginning the weakening of a certain number of states that's the first issue the second issue is saying that africa is nine hundred million inhabitants and that's ahead gaza's only one hundred fifty billion inhabitants so what is happening now is hell and it's dreadful of course and i'm grateful that france has been incapable of intervening is a more wider problem it's a problem of the weakening of the states and the people who are replacing what normally should be the ledger to miti of a state the legitimacy of an army and the legitimate stakeholders for the major issue that is facing africa is weakening of state institution that's one second of all the lack of. african sort of diety which is also something that most.

put into interest and put in debate concerning the man and the crisis and the third part more than jihad ism is to link between jet isn't big criminality and the drug smuggling agenda which is huge in this part of africa but can also be. located in other parts of the let me let me finish and let me go to michael i mean why are these countries weak in the first place and you think military interventions are a good idea. well in this country's weak festival because it's a former colony of france and haven't kept iraq together since independence. it's a bit of a pep plexi to you that you know are these cut sons are trying to say that france france is interested in states. or democrats for that matter if we look across africa apart from uganda which is under phone and equatorial guinea which is loose

a phone if you find any state in africa where the head of state has been there for a very long time and where the maximum limits of the presidency has been exceeded constitutionally. always francophone and we're talking about congo brazzaville come a room booking office so chad. to this year and to recently government to recently jail until recently until recently all nine cases are francophone and the reason that happens because all these states have military pats with france whereby france has special forces stationed in the capitals and the areas that if the head of state is in trouble let's see if there's a coup d'etat or france will jump to the aid of the person which actually means that they can rule with impunity they don't care about governance they don't care about it to me ok ok did you mean to imply there emmanuel jal. let's go to paris go

ahead and let's go to paris to jump in on that specific specific point of you saying that france as you know in february two thousand and nine decided to. have a more transparent a more. let's say a more. to really build to reshape its relation with a certain number of countries where they had military agreements i have to say that is not one of the states where from outside the military agreements child was neither one of these states or so we would be very conscious on saying what my colleague has just said that special forces are here to intervene in case of a rebellion in case of domestic internal. misbehavior of militaries or rebels again france in this case in mali is intervening on behalf of a resolution united nations resolution twenty eighty five it is intervening on

behalf of a follow up of african led mission i feel now and again it is only doing what others were willing to do but did not have the capability of doing as it was mentioned we do have bases in africa three bases one in when you have also it when in djibouti and when you charge so that that has to be taken in consideration one last bit have in mind that many too many too late when you took power in one thousand nine hundred one was very democratic and that those other examples were democracy in francophone states is also a reality i would take the example of syria ok del go ahead jump in you want to jump in before go ahead. yes i was just going to say we should not really confuse. the reaction with the action or the cause. of the actions of the cause so the had actually being a stable democracy there would be a need for the french to intervene if we cast our mind back twenty years ago or

what happened in rwanda. which was actually a mega mega tragedy i mean do we really want to wait. until another tragedy like rwanda which would actually happen then. you know why didn't we intervene so. ok michael i what we're hearing are hearing we're hearing you know this africans can't rule themselves when sounds like to me go ahead no i'm not i'm not going to i'm asking michael now cause and effect michael. it's it's essentially you know. it would appear that france went in and that's all well and good because of the cover of a u.n. resolution but the underlying current really is that france intervene because of their special interests in mali and of course about the backlash of the growth of terrorism which will in the end affect france if it does not intervene so it's not

necessarily i mean the great gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and we have to go to a short break and after that short broke we'll continue our discussion on africa stay with r.t. . if you want. speak your language. programs and documentaries in arabic it's all here on our team reporting from the world. spots the fiar p. interviews intriguing story for you to. try. to find out more visit our big.

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is is trash to get rid of. but it's also a treasure. worth fighting for. and a trap was no way out. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some. they're part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture.

for fox. news recently.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter a little to remind you we're talking about africa and the major powers. ok about to go back to paris manual why does france have to be so involved in africa i thought colonialism was over well well it is actually a well it doesn't look that way and in the way it looks like a neo colonial project head is that. is that because we intervene when we were asked to do so it was the first time that we were doing that so i think it's a it's a rupture well you know it's a it sounds like a model of how it looks like moral hazard to me ok just call the french they'll take care of it well just call the french because we're the only ones who have bases there it's base it's a it's broadly the the answer i will give to you is that we have force that are

disposed to intervene because we are present throughout. mission in those we have a thousand four hundred soldiers now in charge and we are present in central africa again history is something you have to take into account and we are in a francophone area and most of these countries do have in mind that fifty percent of the currency of these countries is backed up by the. defense and the assets are is also something we have to take in consideration as a legacy of story but let me just if you. please little please do please do respond to your question what is the interest that france is defending or the under agenda the secret agenda that france me have i would just have in mind that if that is the case then we should have intervened in a jail when there was a rebellion and there was

a coup in two thousand and ten because obviously most of the french interest if there is that is to be summarized in the jail in the lead where we have rain extraction we have very few. mining gold or oil or or gas extraction in the italians do so in the northern western part of. but not the french ok adele lot of people would say it's an asset grab you know africa's the last great place to grab assets go ahead. well how i'm always sort of quiet and used by all these clear. neo colonialism and grabbing africa would be very interesting to see if any of those people who are these columns with which romney is spread sheets where for example the cost of french prisons in bases the cost of british intervention in libya and france.

how much that goes to the british taxpayer french taxpayer any taxpayer going purred with the money. the sources coming out from this country whether it's mineral export imports taking out of that the local employment and tax collected by the governments of those countries if actually someone comes out with this is spread cheat and sure me that french presence or british intervention of adel western powers are in and. people are going to do a good gallop tell then he convinces but also our countries do things out of interest michael go ahead jump in. well i mean you have to ask yourself where was france post-independence mali where the central government in bamako had several

agreements over the decades with the as the words with the turks no off and kept breaking these agreements to the extent that decided that they wanted independence where i was friends in the jail where the president had basically stayed for too long and exceeded their limits where was france and all these other cases it's quite clear that there's a pattern that france is only interested in its interests in the natural resources and doesn't care too much about good governance and then when it comes to the critical point france into veins to look and appear are safe where the savior but they're actually condoned the whole process the due to the situation that brought to trouble. a lot of saddam now at least at so many cases at the at the office of what role has france been playing implicitly or explicitly see to bring this to us to this point ok menu on paris you want to respond to that. well

it's an everlasting debate as a frenchman i'm always obliged to defend the french policy and i would have to take basic facts france has been doing a three week operation a counted operation it is not a stab releasing operation. a few days ago our minister of french ministry of foreign affairs of abuse centers france once the mission is accomplished and there is a debate of what is the mission are we going to stop where once the major northern cities are liberated as go and to move to have been in the in the past days or are we going to pass. the mission to other actors and this is exactly what we're going to do again. who has in mind the schedule normally the words jew to intervene in next september we were obliged to intervene because no one at the military capability to stop the two

thousand. armed jihadist column which was heading from from from the north from the north to march and maybe to bamako or elsewhere book enough i saw or western part of new year and i do have in mind that now we are into legend to mitt and legal intervention and this is precisely the fact why we are calling for a united nation why france is calling for united nations mission observation observer to be mission if france hadn't underneath agenda then we would do like we have done in the recent years and of course as an analyst i have to say that there is a shift in the nature of the. operations we do not have any more defense agreement we have shared strategic partnership with francophone countries and with other countries which which we did not have contacts i will take the example of nigeria

where we are training. patrol in order to enhance a more secure area in the gulf of guinea ok well military training doesn't always work out we saw that with mali i delve i could ask you i mean do you see the militarization of africa i mean that in states the united states is arming and training a lot of armies on the continent is this worrying. well i think you know why is that the united states is not picking a leadership an opportunity to have a president well it can only in so many countries at a time. he's very he's very good in making speeches and the big bow is about when it comes to action and it's zero. people especially on the left use of the law of nature front of president bush at least it was decisive. from obama we have not seen the leadership when it actually came to libya

and gadhafi and his sons was threatening to slaughter people from house to house and street to say well i mean libya didn't work out too well french still hasn't worked out very well and listen i'm going to french actually action not american action american skin be it and give logistics and i wish i wish the americans with some kind of leadership because what we will have modern as it is the french action the french do not have the capability to actually sustain a long jump in there and that could be counterproductive because the people of mali out applauding them and so on but the need finance and logistics support we don't want public opinion or funds to turn against operation so you need some kind of international force and the only history has proved with american leadership and this kind of intervention it doesn't quite work well therefore why don't we go into the how do you define the mission well how do you define what works well of the african union backing from the united mine don't go ahead jump in does advocate

need more or less interventions. africa needs. support where the mattis and i think i have to say that france ought to be congratulated for intervening on the tenth of january but part of it also it's because of the guilty complex on the back of the intervention in libya which actually caused a spillover of turkey's groups into mali itself. so i think that we need to sort of come to a situation where the union resolutions will be able to co-opt both international international support to actually mitigate the whole civilian problem i mean just before the coup in march two thousand and twelve and with a whole international body had actually met in bamako to put together a package of humanitarian and economic and military package for the whole problem

and they could interrupt it so i think that it would be a good idea to get back on track on those terms and wow the u.n. is currently putting for putting together a resolution to take forward a military operation to secure the territorial integrity of mali i think that of the parties before the coup need to also come together on track to to to put together the whole package that will solve the problem. across mali's mollies neighbors as well. so we'll have to wait and see you know the true role that either dates national community i'm talking about africa eco wise the u.n. security council france of course the u.s. i mean we're aware that the u.s. now wants to have a drone base. in we are also aware that there is of those already a drone base in work in africa so i mean i mean. you know i'm going to give you the last word in our program is that good now american drones are going to africa is

a good. time adel going. i think drawings from from from a tactical point of view or sort of better making human errors because. pilots are humans after all of them actually drove the road in you were was braun's you know you don't have these fears are going to be ok man you well i have you know what we still have thirty seconds to many well go ahead you want to say something please do. just remind everyone that africa is not the case in africa that the strategy of the americans and they have this capability. as you mentioned. trained by the americans not by the french i have to put that clearly in mind of the spectators. having a. point of view concerning all right i wish we had another half an hour gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guest in london and thanks to our viewers

for watching us here see you next time and remember. to get. the treasure. it's worth fighting for. and the trap was no way out.

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