some countries want oil but that's kid stuff who needs oil when you could secure the world's largest supply of trucker dero soda located exclusively in sweden and meeting sweden for absolutely no logical reason is a possible you say well supreme commander of the swedish armed forces general sphere guru and son must have watched red dawn too many times because he thinks the russians are a common general durance and declared that if invaded by russia sweden wouldn't be able to last a week against the onslaught therefore sweden must immediately join nato he said that currently it is not quite possible to invade sweden but due to the two thousand and eight war with georgia it is possible for russia to somehow push through established european borders bring their forces up to sweden's gates putting the generals country in danger but guess what according to your own council of the european union georgia started the war so by that logic if the two thousand and eight war with georgia is the example of the future then don't kill russian

peacekeeping troops and you'll have nothing to worry about but general goran so also made the point that president putin is rearming the russian army hinting at a threat of being heavily armed to defend yourself is a bad scary thing then joining up with nato seems to be pretty hypocritical if the people of sweden want to join nato well that is their choice but they shouldn't be tricked into having their taxpayers pay for their sons to die in afghanistan based on totally bogus arguments that make no sense but that's just my opinion.

hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things considered on peter all of a new scramble for africa cloaked under the guise of fighting terrorism and in support of noble western values africa is again in play is this continent at the center of a vast natural resource grab why is the u.s. deploying troops in thirty four african countries and how does the new actually china add to this mix. to cross the rio neal conan doyle's ation of africa i'm joined by michael mower in london he is an expert on africa at the london school of economics also in london we have adel darwish he is the political editor of the middle east magazine group

and in paris we cross to emmanuel to plea he is the president of the institute for perspective security studies in europe all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want michael if i could go to you first i mean if you read western media it's the west fighting terrorism jihadism in africa is that the worst problem africa has right now. it's definitely one of the key problems africa is grappling with at the moment particularly to deal with. mali and the fact that the whole of north of mali had until recently been occupied by terrorist jihadists islamist groups which basically had serious potential for destabilizing the whole region and of course the state of mali ok michael but does that justify interventions military interventions you think. it becomes a problem for the international community and our smiley the state of

mali is unable to do with it obviously there has to be international support and that can sometimes mean foreign intervention depending on the scenario at stake i mean in the case of mali at the ninth of january the international community had to really give up and had to postpone every action till september two thousand and thirteen but then the jihadists decided to make an incursion and were heading towards but michel on the ninth of january when france decided that they were going to intervene on the tenth of january to stalk the cation and the advance towards about marcos so actually the jihadists to go to burma call is more or less a blessing in disguise because if they hadn't done that the whole war that given up on mali and had left to its fate until september twenty third take

a michael. blessing and a spark disguised as kind of odd adel where do you come you know this if development issues or terrorism go. into a geographic and historic respect. as we. understand. to establishing bases in the whole of the whole region which actually extends from sub-saharan africa all the way to. every single. it was you had this who actually started the. most of the the challenge the legitimacy of governments. when the us intervention even if you go back to nine eleven and new york which triggered the war it was al qaida that. you are.

chips in aid in the am and it was you had this where she started. the stability in somalia which lead to piracy so what some people would call intervention came as a result of jihadist terrorist attacks not the other way around ok you wouldn't say mali was an example of that though would you. well mally malley was a classic example like afghanistan somalia and yemen where you have if you have a snake problem. a spree and the central government did not respond you have a very large vast space with with sort of weak asunta low sort of gear then you have a military you've already admitted to me in mali it was you know i just it's. exemplar to that coup and that is in. moves in so in order to sort of learn from that it's

not like afghanistan and somalia and so on you have to rush to fill that vacuum up fortunately the only sort of reasonable three in power with democratic accountability that had bases in the region with the french and. not almost no damage to the french market they drove eight hundred ma is. perfectly i mean the issue is which is a different issue anyway not to leave them when they're on the whole in african sort of community have to alright well that you mentioned france it's going to in many ways when paris ok go ahead paris react to what you just heard. well i would like to have come from complimentary point of view stating what you mentioned saying that is terrorism is judges the major negative effect affecting the. afghan population let's have in mind that what is going on is along jewing

instability and the judges are there because there is into beginning the weakening of a certain number of states that's the first issue the second issue is saying that africa is nine hundred million inhabitants and that's ahead gaza's only one hundred fifty million inhabitants so what is happening now is hell and it's dreadful of course and i'm grateful that france has been capable of intervening is a more wider problem it's a problem of the weakening of the states and the people who are replacing what normally should be the legit to miti of a state the legitimacy of an army and the legitimate stakeholders for the major issue that is facing africa is weakening of state institution that's one second of all the lack of an african solidarity which is also something that must be. put into emphasis and put in debate concerning the million and the syrian

crisis and the third parts more than jihadism is to link between jet isn't big criminality and the drug smuggling agenda which is huge in this part of africa but can also be. located in other parts of the let me let me i don't finish the let me go to michael i mean why are these countries weak in the first place and you think military interventions are a good idea. well in this country's weak festival because it's a former colony of france and haven't kept iraq together since independence. it's a bit of a pep plex city that you know are these cuts. are trying to say that france france is interested in states legitimation or democrats for that matter if we look across africa apart from uganda which is under phone and equatorial guinea which is elusive phone if you find any state in africa where the head of state has been

there for a very long time and where the maximum limits of the presidency has been exceeded constitutionally you know road always francophone and we're talking about congo brazzaville come a room booking office so chad. to this year and to recently gotten to recently jail until recently until recently all nine cases are francophone and the reason that happens because all these states have military pacts with france whereby france has special forces stationed in the capitals and the areas that if the head of state is in trouble let's see if there's a coup d'etat or france will jump to the aid of the person which actually means that they can rule with impunity they don't care about governance they don't care about they did to me ok ok did you mean to imply there emmanuel just. go to paris go ahead let's go to paris to jump in on that specific specific point of you saying

that france as you know in february two thousand and nine decided to. have a more transparent more. more. to really build to reshape its relation with a certain number of countries where military agreements i have to say that it is not one of the states where friends i don't believe to be agreements child was neither one of the states or. to be very conscious on saying what my colleague has just said that special forces are here to intervene in case of a rebellion in case of domestic internal. misbehavior of militaries or rebels again france in this case in mali is intervening on behalf of a resolution united nation resolution twenty eighty five it is intervening on behalf of a follow up of african led mission field now and again it is only doing

what others were willing to do but did not have the capability of doing as it was mentioned we do have bases in africa three bases one in when you have also it when in djibouti and when you charge so that is that has to be taken in consideration one last bit have in mind that a many to many too late when you took power in one thousand nine hundred one was very democratic and that those other examples were democracy in front of them states is also a reality i would take the example of syria ok adel go ahead jump in you want to jump in before go ahead. yes i was just going to say we should not really confuse. the reaction with the action or the cause. of the actions of the cause so the had actually been a stable democracy there would be a need for the french to intervene if we cast our mind back like twenty years ago

or what happened in rwanda. which was actually a mega mega tragedy i mean do we really want to wait. until another tragedy like rwanda actually happened and then we'll see well you know why didn't we intervene so actually ok michael i what we're hearing and hearing we're hearing you know this africans can't rule themselves to him sounds like to me go ahead no i'm not i'm not going to i'm asking michael now go here start cause and effect michael it's a it's a surely you know. it would appear that france went in and that's all well and good because of the cover of the u.n. resolution but the underlying current really is that france intervene because of their special interests in mali and of course about the backlash of the growth of terrorism which will in the end i think france if he does not intervene so it's not necessarily i mean the great gentlemen i'm going to jump in here and we have to go

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welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter a little to remind you we're talking about africa and the major powers. ok i'd like to go back to paris manual why does france have to be so involved in africa i thought colonialism was over well well it is actually well it doesn't look that. way it looks like a neo colonial project is that is that because we intervene when we were asked to do so it was the first time that we were doing that so i think it's a it's a rupture well you know you can say it sounds like it looks like moral hazard to me ok just call the french they'll take care of it well just call the french because we're the only ones who have bases there. it's broadly the the answer i would give to you is that we have. disposed to intervene because we are present

throughout the mission. we have. a thousand four hundred soldiers now in charge and we are present in central africa again history is something you have to take into account and we are in a francophone area and most of these countries do have in mind that fifty percent of the currency of these countries is backed up by the. defense and the process are is also something we have to take in consideration as a legacy of story but let me just if you. please little please do please respond to your question what is the interest that france is defending or the under agenda the secret agenda that france me have i would just have in mind that if that is the case then we should have intervened in a jail when there was a rebellion and there was a coup in two thousand and ten because obviously most of the french interest if

there is that is to be summarized in the jail in the lead where we have rain your extraction we have very few. mining gold or oil or or gas extraction in the italians do so in the northern western part of many but not the french ok adel lot of people would say it's an asset grab you know africa's the last great place to grab assets go ahead adele well i'm always sort of quiet and used by all these clear. neo colonialism grabbing africa would be very interesting to see if any of those people who are are these columns with me is spread sheets. where for example the cost of french prisons bases the cost of british intervention in libya and france.

how much that costs to the british taxpayer french taxpayer any taxpayer going purred with the money. the sources coming out from this country whether it's a mineral knit exporting it imports taking out of that the local employment and tax collected by the governments of this country if actually someone comes up with this is a spreadsheet and show me that french presence or british intervention or dell western powers are in and. people are doing a good guy to tell then he convinces but also other countries do things out of interest michael go ahead jump in. well i mean you have to ask yourself where was france post-independence mali where the central government in bamako had several agreements over the decades with the other words with the turks north and kept

breaking these agreements to the extent that decided that they wanted independence where i was friends in the jail where the president had basically stayed for too long and exceeded their limits where was france and all these other cases it's quite clear that there's a pattern that france is only interested in its interests in the natural resources and doesn't care too much about good governance and then when it comes to the critical point france into vain is to look and appear are safe where the savior but there actually can do the whole process to the. to the situation that brought to trouble. and as i've said i'm not a list that so many cases the us the office of what role has france been playing implicitly or explicitly see to bring this to us to this point ok menu on paris you want to respond to that. well it's an everlasting debate as

a frenchman i'm always obliged to defend the french policy and i would have to take basic facts france has been doing a three week operation a counter terrorist operation it is not a stab releasing operation. a few days ago our minister of french ministry of foreign affairs of abuse centers france once the mission is accomplished and there is a debate of what is the mission are we going to stop where once the major northern cities are liberated as go and to go to have been in the in the past days or are we going to pass. the mission to other actors and this is exactly what we're going to do again. who has in mind the schedule normally the words jew to intervene in next september we were obliged to intervene because no one at the military capability to stop the two

thousand. armed jihadist column which was heading from from from the north from the north to march and maybe to bamako or elsewhere book enough or so or western part of new year to have in mind that now we are into legend to mitt and legal intervention and this is precisely the fact why we are calling for a united nation why france is calling for united nations mission observation observer to be mission if france hadn't underneath agenda then we would do like we have done in the recent years and of course as an analyst i have to say that there is a shift in the nature of the. operations we do not have any more defense agreement we have shared such a partnership with francophone countries and with other countries which which we

did not have contacts i will take the example of nigeria where we are training. patrol in order to enhance a more secure area in the gulf of guinea ok well military training doesn't always work out we saw that with mali i tell if i can ask you i mean do you see the militarization of africa i mean not in states the united states is arming and training a lot of armies on the continent is this worrying well i think the why is that the united states is not taking a leadership an opportunity you have a president well it can only invade so many countries at a time. he's very he's very good in making speech is the big bow is about when it comes to action and it's a zero. p.p. people especially on the left use of the love. fund of president bush at least it was decisive. from obama we have not seen the leadership when it actually came to

libya and gadhafi and his sons who was threatening to slaughter people from house to house on street to say well i mean libya didn't work out too well french still hasn't worked out very well and listen i'm going to french actually action not american action the american skin be it and give logistics and i wish i wish the americans we think some kind of leadership because what we will have modern really as it is the french action the french do not have the capability to actually sustain a long jump in there and it could be counterproductive yes the people of mali out applauding them and so on but the need finance and logistics support we don't want public opinion or funds to turn against operation so you need some kind of international force and the only history has proved with american leadership in this kind of intervention it doesn't quite work well therefore why don't we go into the how do you define it and well how do you define work well over the african union backing from the united go ahead jump in does advocate need more or less

interventions. africa needs. support worthy matus and i think i have to say that france ought to be congratulated for intervening on the tenth of january but part of it also it's because of the guilty complex on the back of the intervention in libya which actually caused a spillover of ammunitions and turkey's groups into myler itself. so i think that we need to sort of come to a situation where the union resolutions will be able to co-opt both international international support to to actually mitigate the whole civilian problem i mean just before the coup in march two thousand and twelve and with the whole international body had actually met in bamako to put together a package of humanitarian and economic and military package for the whole problem.

up to this i think that it would be a good idea to get back on track on those terms and whilst the un is currently pushing for putting together a resolution to take forward a military operation to secure the territorial integrity of mali i think that of the parties before the coup need to also come together on track to to to put together the whole package that will solve the problem. across mollies monies neighbors as well. so we'll have to wait and see you know the true role that dates national community i'm talking about africa eco wise the u.n. security council france of course the us i mean we're aware that the u.s. now wants to have a drone base. in we are also aware that there is of those already a drone base in work in africa so i mean i mean. joe i'm going to give you the last word in our program is that good now american drones are going to africa is

a good. now we're out of time adel go ahead and i think the drawings from from from a tactical point of view or sort of better making human errors because. pilots are humans after all of them actually drove the road in you were was drawn. you know you're going to have these fears are going to be ok man you well i have you know we all have thirty seconds so many well go ahead you want to say something please do. just remind everyone that africa is not the case and enough that the strategy of the americans and they have this capability i'll say something that ever as you mentioned the noble was trained by the americans not by the french i have to put that clearly in mind of the spectators is having a dual point of view concerning all right i wish we had another half an hour gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks today to my guests in london and in paris and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are t.

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