we'll. see. how. i mean.

welcome back to cross talk all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you we're discussing italian politics and the euro. ok doing fine go back to the italian vote was on austerity if anything ok and if you support austerity you get punished ok so how do we look forward you know other countries in the periphery. i think that i would interpret it slightly differently from that again i think it's worth emphasizing that the one. not necessarily pro austerity but certainly pro brussels party that the democrats came out on top in

the lower house and if they had had the same electoral system in the senate would have come on top then it's more of sort of an issue of the regional based sort of election system in the senate. so i but but you're absolutely right that this is the most important issue in the discussion. but what i would interpret that as saying is that just like any other people will be telling people really don't like it when they're in a recession when people can't find work and when when the economy really is dealing does that stand on growth i guess that's the question here i don't believe it can my my my anybody i was. sorry ok crosstalk go ahead nicholas jump in go ahead no i think we're overestimating the it's i mean we're talking as if the italian election was a single issue election about those thirty that's not at all how we felt in italy in italy it was primarily about corruption in italy and corruption is the time in pretty good system and this is what lies behind

a success of the five star movement they're basically saying there's also a rap so know how it's working for you guys you know people. david in london goals because what it was was almost a no i agree that i agree that's about italian economies and then they are fed up but it isn't the neighbor force there's no i mean to ones from the right over to you but what people have voted this is very clear in the program of five stars they want to change their god they want to change everybody in ruling because those things are not served by those people well maybe they're not david go ahead i got is got this is a crook is this is a pan-european as i've said before as a pan-european thing. of eight hundred forty eight is spreading right across europe and starting greece is now moving to italy spain and i can assure you right now france is going the same way the french economy is an appalling polling situation they're fed up with the right all along we had to election in france last year france france is completely different germany would be different this year it's not

transit state it was a great. the greek banks greeks will a great deal of money to the french as france's economy is in the polling situation . people are leaving there because of the the republican rich their struggles visit friends the european union opposing in terms of. your you're looking at ironically oppose all right ok all right all right dell and jumping you really hard i've tried to impose limits on the whole deal and if you want to feel like you just go ahead. i'm interested in david's repeated analogies to eight hundred forty eight since as we all recall they were a huge failure this is where it was altered and of and so i i don't know why is taking so much pride in that but i think it's. people nichol's you're right there are other issues not just what's happening dylan keep going i don't say that i've been case this is a little fed up with the a stash of the fed up with a stash of throughout europe do and keep going. but but but i think what nicholas

is saying and i largely agree with this is that just like then the establishment is remarkably resilient and remarkably ago able to accommodate those pressures from the citizenry even if they are as extreme as you're saying and i think we disagree on the magnitudes there. but i want to agree with the point the nicholas is making about corruption which is not unrelated that there's. there's a lot of folk condemnation of italy and greece and southern european economies in general for their their informal economies the perception of corruption. that they have there. but that's generally thought of those countries always as a case nor does it really expected them to be anything else greece's i was being corrupt greece's hold on i'm agreeing with you italy has always been corrupt italy is a whole thing disorganized there's nothing new there that a lot of is the european union is trying to have a policy which just really doesn't work for countries like greece and italy and

spain where that as you say there has been a large informal economy because of the works because it's informal it does not cure all and well to yes you know the rules and regulations nicholas jump in i want to say to our viewers who are not you know looking day today at europe that our debates are straight home and so u.k. sort of disconnected from the european debate and so european rarely be seen from so you can soon from may have to pay part of the euro and i just europe i'm going to be basically right about the thing but it's british taxpayers otherwise you're just. dealing with you are smiling you're you know i pay for it but apparently you don't understand it then you don't visit it because you're describing reality i think i understand it you know why it's i just want to support what i learned when i. was a european union which hasn't been all that a free cheat is to deal and i saw you smiling my neck and i say i know you're going to wrap your mind a day on this go to dylan. well i

i honestly am not enough of an expert to walk opinion in europe to say sort of whether to arbitrate the particular debate but i do think it's worth looking at the example of britain since it's unlike the rest of europe a country that really has no excuse for its economic condition that italy can can legitimately complain that it's not being well served by the c b cameron doesn't like with the bank of england is doing he can you know mark carney a bit more mervyn king who i think is still there for a couple months but what we've seen in britain is that austerity is a massive failure. free premature contraction and reforms i mean i was listening to what he had done in the case actually have a social democratic government is not cutting there is not involving itself in serious cuts it's cutting all the wrong things and none of the right things it's not cutting at extremely high wilderness of what do you buy the last really god there is about an action happening dylan finish your point then i know that cutting

the wrong thing there no i don't disagree if you gave it up but they're cutting waste they're. no hint of cutting they're absolutely not cutting nicholas romantically hard gentlemen shall always hear the change gears here ok nicholas how much can italy hold back reform of the euro now if they want to. it's a big economy now i think at this point it really has to form a government that this point italy has to form a government and it's entirely unclear as we speak what sort of government will emerge from the result of the italian election so we need to wait for the dust to settle before we can answer your question then so does this probably not going to settle in nearly before i guess a number of weeks maybe we'll have a good surprise but my baseline scenario is that we will perhaps have a government in march. but perhaps not and that's a it's a really complicated situation over there we won't know about the position of the italian government unless we have an italian government dealing what do you think

because your function rather well without government. is your goal of forming one that's all dylan go ahead it's a good point though the david made i think the one thing that it always should be very grateful for is that they've devised a system where and if worse comes to worse and they can't form a government they can just hold other elections and as someone who comes from a country where it is the norm to know i never be able to form a government between the president and the congress i am very there flexibility there so i think it's worth not thinking of this in two apocalyptic terms at the very worst a combination is and come to you in the senate well the markets might not be nice that's all i mean the markets might punish if it takes a long time. that's that's certainly fair but you know that's what the markets are one day behind on those that may not be what happens nicholas go ahead finish go ahead this is the beginning of the end of the european union of the euro and the

european union is just as clear to most people you send and you've said that forward ten years david you've said that for ten years you've been wrong. well the catch of the cap to the floats i think i don't remember your exact words but i remember he's a very dangerous taxpayers and german taxpayers money so you know it's been kept afloat by fraud and we all know that everyone knows it and they have to beat any of the rules is being kept a lot kept going with british and the german taxpayers money the whole thing is a foss it is not an economic project it's a political project for a country called europe which nobody voted for setting off in the u.k. and most certainly not a very solid country david so they have tried to bring in this and instead if you do we're not going to really be mad but you know you are predicting right and i was as it really is not an exit ok don't talk over each other i developed they had to go to do i want to german and british taxpayers' money bill and what's that what's

the future of reform structural reform of the currency because it needs it. i think there. are two basic paths one is the one that david wants where you see a. prickly of at least a few countries from the monetary union and you're left with the core group of states that is generally in and i said i don't i want to end up here and i want everybody out of it and i want the end of the european union. i highly doubt that david will you wrote that it's as rather i think greece is about a spade and it's bad for germany ok dylan what's the other scenario. the other scenario i can see is one in which the same pressures that have driven to the point saturday continue pushing forward of more formalized fiscal union and that's requires a lot of political heavy lifting ok you bring up a good reason i want to ask everyone would that be democratic nicolas would people

vote for it you're going to get the opportunity democratic if we build up our democratic institutions in europe we can make a democratic if we make the european parliament more representative and if we give more power to the european parliament it's perfectly possible it doesn't require that much institutional change so i don't think it's impossible to have a democracy at the level of that you have the truth the u.k. will want to be part of it this is a question for the u.k. to answer well it is all here opinion with a very short period of time i can tell you right now the european union is on its way out and everybody can see it you have to be crazy to think otherwise the basically run out of javelin british taxpayers' money to keep it afloat and they can't do it anymore the whole thing's going to blow up worse projections have been caught so you think you know wrong and so we'll continue to be wrong while we were consistently right we told you the euro was a catastrophe and it's proved to be a catastrophe we wanted to stay out of the euro and you told us. about the end of

my stay out of it look at the mess of the country gentlemen got so gently and i mean we will resolve anything fascinating discussion many thanks to you to my guests in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here aki see you next time and remember. these will. download the official publication yourself choose your language stream quality and enjoy your favorite. if you're away from your television just doesn't work so now

with your mobile device you can watch artsy anytime anywhere. both of. her mum lives. goodspeed. her.

with. good. luck. and. mine i'm a little.