considered i'm peter lavelle the residents of the falkland islands or moby does have spoken they wish to maintain their status as a british overseas territory argentina has dismissed a referendum is folly it would appear the twin pillars of the international order are on a collision course does self-determination trump the sanctity of sovereignty. to cross not this island dispute i'm joined by lou coffee in washington he's a margaret thatcher fellow at the heritage foundation also in washington we have willard. he is a research fellow at the council on hemispheric affairs and in london we crossed to richard got he is a former latin american correspondent and editor for the guardian or a gentleman cross-talk rules and i think that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it richard if i go to you first the recent referendum overwhelmingly passed so we should recognize self-determination of those people living on those islands yes or no. determination doesn't apply to

a smooth group of people living on an island miles away from the mainland of britain ok that was very clear look jump in. i tell you it certainly does it doesn't matter if it's one single person they have the right of self-determination is clearly outlined in the u.n. charter this is a very fundamental rights and they have exercise this right and the world should listen ok you guys are being real quick here alex. it could be short for the past few years the argentine gorgon has accused the u.k. of a policy of twenty first century calling at least some in the islands they were for in the most interesting and important tool by the u.k. to show that the wheel of the island being respected the need for people to help lived in most of their cases most cases for their entire lives in the silence ok richard but peter peter out peter i would say that it's not what is going to go to

a church or as you say be very lively richard first please go ahead and the problem is it's not a question of what the island does think it's a question of the sovereignty of the islands of the see around them and that present belongs to britain and it is claimed by argentina the view than thought the island is a completely and absolutely irrelevant alrighty luke go ahead irrelevant that is not true the the wishes of the will of the islanders is very important here this is what it's all about it's about what do the people of the falkland islands want to live under do they want to live under the crown united kingdom or do they want to be part of argentina they have overwhelmingly decided that they want to be part of the united kingdom and this wasn't a tool by the united kingdom actually this was the whole referendum idea came from the falkland islands government it was the falkland islanders themselves that have the right of self-determination and shrine into their constitution as the falkland

islanders themselves have decided to exercise this right of self-determination now david cameron in london said that he would back the falkland islanders no matter what the outcome of the vote and they he has done so in the argentine in these so listen the people of the falkland islands want to remain british very clear alex is it an either or situation here as it was just described. pretty much unfortunately we have to look at this from historical perspective i think both of argentina alone have been fighting for control of the island scene and making since you've seen. the day when the u.k. is accused of how to explain their arguments that you sleep in their lands and the brawl in their own people and we see depending on who you ask nor are you or a british historian going to tell you different version of probably just plain history. obviously both nations are not going to agree on some kind of

sobriety is not on the table the u.k. has always said that and i actually disagree we've what look said i think this he said to especially because argentina has been trying to get the sympathy vote from latin america from the from the developing world by saying or the u.k. or the evil if the evil can through they're trying to steal the last of curry not like a city's twenty first century cornelius sim and a u.k. story to. a friend can go around and say you know no we're not imposing our will anybody the people believe in the islands are happy with the current relationship of the u.k. and we're respecting that and we're protected look you want to jump in go ahead. look around i think i look for go to look first go ahead look. i find a shocking that that there is a whole group of people around the world who simply want to ignore the wishes of the falkland islanders and this is an extension of the campaign by argentina to dehumanised the falkland islanders quite regularly we hear argentine officials

describe the falkland islanders as a as a population and not a people the argentine foreign minister a couple weeks ago in london even went so far as to say that the falkland islanders the not exist these are outrageous comments these are the words of colonizers and it's absurd to think that a country this supposed to be a member of the g. twenty part of the democratic community in the world would make these sort of claims ok richard jump in. the falkland islanders the people who live on the falkland islanders do not constitute a people they are british subjects who happen to live in the islands and it's worth saying that more than thirty years ago the british gathered and three thousand people live on these islands i would disagree with you richard go ahead keep going up never mind never mind more than thirty years ago the british government including visits that were very keen on the gacy ating the future of those islands

with argentina and they came very close to an agreement which was spoiled by the argentine military invading the islands but that the situation has not changed in that in those thirty years the british or still to be keen to negotiate sovereignty because traditionally over the hundred thirty years in which the british have occupied the islands there the legal department of the foreign office has always had as to the validity of the british claim and so it's perfectly legitimate for the argentine to suggest that should should be a dialogue about the future ok alex you look like you want to say something all right ahead you know much about it like it's alex first go ahead yes just just very quickly like i said i talk read the accounts by the argentine historians they have their own version of what happened in the silence and why they have there according to a to say that big big got to learn from this spanish chrono believe after they got

the independence and then the u.k. came so i think we can probably see here sit down discuss. for the next two hours approaching the company agreement but i think what's important is that these were friendly house humanised the falklands dispute it's not just about the land it's not just about the oil which i will talk about that in a second because i'm down in the second factor. good but that's human that had to go heater in a faith to the dispute saying yeah ok we'll go ahead jump in but peter i think is worth actually exploring a bit of the history here you know the the what we now call argentina said they broke away from the spanish empire declared independence in one thousand sixteen the last spanish settlement on the falkland islands was eighteen eleventh's at the time of argentine independence spain did not have de facto or sovereign control over the falkland islands so the idea that argentina would inherit something that spain didn't even have to give is ridiculous and eight hundred thirty three when

when the british warship h.m.s. clear arrived to the falkland islands to reassert british sovereignty there there was first declared in seven hundred sixty five they expelled only the argentine military garrison twenty six soldiers ten of whom were implicated in a recent murder at the time were kicked off the island so the argentine civilians that were living there were free to stay and many did so in fact so fast forward today the history is interesting but actually it's not that important what is important is the will of the falkland islanders themselves they have said they want to be british and we should respect that but they can be british but why do they have to have ok alex go ahead jump in go ahead. i mean to say that i take exception with one word that luke say when he said that there are just and so there's that where the i think we're free to stay or leave the islands i wish when the i were in that would be working i think that sounds really weird when it comes to that but.

you know how we see the world i've never seen i've never heard of calling the empire some spain the u.k. france. what i'm given much for two people belief. usually just make a decision for them though or you were allowed to say it was a belief ok look this is crosstalk going it was a fact that it was a fact argentina it was a fact that argentine civilians were not only asked to and allowed to but many did stay after eight hundred thirty three and there was never an indigenous population on the falkland islands or were expelled by anyone the first inhabitants of the falkland islands were european so you know this idea that someone was kicked out in another part and planted people is absurd is just not true and this is the same line we hear over and over again from when i was ari's and it's simply false richard go ahead before we go to the break it will go to richard well. i'm afraid

it's just not true the british seized the islands in eighteen thirty three and subsequently settled it with britain from the folks from cent believe it was a british colonial project in the ok so they were colonized going to richard they were colonizers right absolutely right look not true. it's simply wrong it's historically inaccurate and it cannot be backed up with any historical documents are dedicated and there's alex going to people who go to the break the problem is that. the price of these these items never had an indigenous population to begin with so we see the question is who got there first who have could that be the item for the longest time who has like a legal claim to them or use a day and i say it depends who you are you're going to get different accounts from the spanish the argentines the their body from the island state of the island of

themselves but i will simply called them islanders i will not call them call in the or else i will simply say they leave there now and they have had half don't need four know all their lives probably right lou people who go to the break will quit thirty seconds yeah well say that although the history of the falkland islands is important and there is a clear historical case for british sovereignty over the islands it's actually secondary to the fact that the people the falkland islands want to be british and that's actually what we should be focusing on is the fact that ninety nine point eight percent of those that voted wanted to remain a british overseas territory are gentlemen have to jump in we have to do a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on those disputed i'll stay with. the world.

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three stooges free. old free broadcast quality video for your media projects and free media. dot com. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle mind to we're discussing determination in the sanctity of sovereignty. ok richard i don't think anyone denies the british news of the people living on those islands but why should it be their island the british government have always felt that it has a not very good claim to the islands and i'd like to put that directly to luke

because throughout the history of the islands they have the british have been very very nervous about about the argentine claim and i went to the islands about forty years ago with a british minister who was planning those states at the end of empire the wind up of empire to get rid of the island and we did get rid of the course i thems the diego garcia at the end of the one nine hundred sixty s. we handed over the islands to the united states as a military base at the same time we tried to persuade the islanders to accept the idea that their future lay with argentina just as something like quarter room million british people people of british descent have always lived all since the nineteenth century have lived in argentina mainland argentina ok look so what makes these islands different thing considering what richard just said. well technically

diego garcia is a british overseas territory as well it's not part of the us although the us those operate an air base there but it goes back down to the simple fundamental principle of self-determination it is true richard is correct in saying that these islands have had a complicated history but the history does show that the british do have control over these islands in the people want to keep it that way you know there was talk even the one nine hundred seventy s. of doing some sort of leaseback agreement between the u.k. and argentina and in fact one of the the un resolutions that is constantly touted out by when those areas u.n. resolution twenty sixty five of one nine hundred sixty five actually called for this dispute this territorial dispute to be solved peacefully between argentina and great britain well seventeen years later after the u.n. resolution argentina evaded and he legally occupied the islands and that was a game changer in one thousand nine hundred two with the argentine invasion that

was the game changer of the falkland islands and margaret thatcher made a very clear after that invasion and after the islands were liberated that is up to the people to determine their future because quite clearly they want to remain british alex why doesn't argentina and why ok richard go ahead this is crosstalk go ahead why do you why do you why do you argue that it was a game changer on the international lol the invasion had no impact whatsoever on the base the dispute about sovereignty luke. well under one are international law with these un resolutions that are continuously mentioned by argentina or are non-binding and if if they are binding in the sense they are merely suggesting that the parties involved should settle this dispute peacefully and as i said the resolution of one nine hundred sixty five the un resolution one thousand nine hundred eighty five that called for a peaceful resolution to the dispute ended up in a war seventeen years later by argentine invading ok it's clearly alex jump in go

ahead. i think some kind of general conversation we have just don't. see any or islands there are still a few rypien countries that have overseas territories in the western hemisphere besides the falkland islands you know you have bermuda stupor of the u.k. where they can decide if they want to be independent or remain or remain or maintain some kind of allegiance to london you have. the former dutch interiors who are part of the nerve of the king of the nerds logic of martinique and yen which are in the department do it from are from france and you don't see like these kind of debates and even a war that has started over these are the ends and you know this we don't see in the in the in the pacific unfortunately what happened if the falcons after the making eighty two after the embarrassing defeat of the argentine military was that the claim for that became such

a part of argentine national identity that they i mean whether you know you can argue that they actually have a body claim or they have breached have. a stronger claim by the belief on the sea that they are wrong to them nothing and you have these continuously nationalistic and you know sometimes aggressive statements by the argentine the government by the argentine gorman specially do in the kitchen or press in c. to say you know we're going to have twenty years in the british are evil and colonials and that kind of stuff and that definitely. doesn't support of situation of negotiations of any kind ok richard it is a big domestic issue with argentina go ahead go ahead richard. it is i mean it's rather curious it's a big it's you know the big is you for the british pool most of the time people in britain don't give a single moment's thought to the falkland islands the ridiculous thing is that

there is a debate about sovereignty two countries claim these islands and they should get together and have a discussion about what might happen and that is what the british absolutely refused to do and i take the side of the other times i think that completely right to call for discussions so this method can be discussed discussed amicably and peacefully ok that's fair enough look you want to respond to that but there will have been there is there is nothing to discuss here as far as the u.k. is concerned as far as the auckland islanders are concerned this matter is settled the falkland islanders voted overwhelmingly to be part of great britain and we should respect that ok sure i'm just going to say that. right now with these issues not to be so you have a garden fence or on their point of view you have the police and there have their own point of view difficult spot in their mind. to mention and no we haven't talked

about the oil and you know the natural resource of yet but we think part of the mission that cooperation between the two companies over the islands has existed there early. ninety's were both con to sign a number of fish an agreement to search for the joint search for hydrocarbons not going to start or on the islands and i foresee a lot of these of course have been cancelled since but cooperation between these two companies has existed before and he should happen again and i understand that the. sobriety over the island he's going to continue to be an issue of debate in the in the should be an issue that's going to be specially with arjun times again obviously. we know the same they get just about the to come up with but we never get to two right he three by business is losing. you know what's going on right now you know pete ok ok. what i mean i think ok we're going to go to look at oil was

mentioned is it about oil and fish go ahead look ahead but as not as of oil that's a that's a very convenient distraction for those who can't build a proper case on why the island should be origin time. you know if there is oil there which many think that there is there's probably going to be a lot of it and that there the day this oil is not going to be long to great britain it's going to be long to the falkland islands governments so this idea that britain wants to hold on to the islands for oil is equally ridiculous let's not i'm going to go back to a quick point that i wanted to go back to a point that there richard made earlier that no one in the u.k. cares about this issue people certainly care about this issue and they care even more when we see the sort of campaign of intimidation by argentina against the falkland islanders you know when secretary of state john kerry went to london and had his first press conference as secretary of state the very first question asked by british media was about the u.s. position on the falkland islands of all the issues going on in the world today that

was the very first question asked by the british media ok richard jump in yes of course of course it was because they knew that they could needle the british because traditionally the british and the americans was supposed to be friends but in this case the americans the neutral between britain and. the snuff of the folks who wore. ms patrick the american delegate to the un was decided to be in favor of argentina so this has been is and will be open with the u.s. i think one of the purposes. one of the purposes of the i was not going to surrender is to use it as a propaganda point in the united states and and i'm sure luke that you will be active in that in trying to the americans to side with the british and the nazis argentina alex you want to say so now i'm simply trying to be really good american

so there goes the terminations let me go to alex. that i believe that probably the british media asked that question to the group of state kerry because right now they were friendly with the hot topic that's going on right now and the whole the falklands dispute has warmed fortunately heated up in the past couple of years ever since last year in two thousand and two or forty four different story of the war which happening in eighty two or so it was a very sensitive issue for both sides now to what degree can we say that the critical factor in argentina and for the entire media for the british media and for the british population now you probably will when i have a couple of polls about that i think there are a lot of problems going on in argentina for its economy that probably take a leave of president but certainly like a mission before it's the the a dispute over the islands something that's very close to the to the to the

argentine national identity when it comes to british society the british have a pretty long he's through. or at least we can all agree on that hopefully and arguably the falkland war is not. a top big issue is if he'd up right now by the us and mean that it's going to continue like this for the for the ok for the long term richard i'm going to be the last word in the program has anything changed after this referendum anything change on the ground twenty seconds. no i'm afraid nothing has changed at all i don't think it's a question of self-determination of course argentina would be key to exceed to the wishes of the. island to maintain their way of life but it isn't possible for this to interfere with the need for the british. to talk about the future of the island all right gentlemen we've run out of time fascinating discussion i thank

you all many thanks my guests today in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk was. sleazy. they've been living this way since the seventeenth century. their rituals are strict. their communities on the syllabus. they clearly distinguish between their own and the alien.

and guard their family and faiths as the treasure. it was sometimes you see a story and it seems so. you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear sees some other part of it and realize that everything is all you don't know i'm john harvey welcome to the big picture. live nation free accreditation free comes for judges free. range mentioned free risk free tickets to tide free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects a free media oh god r t dot com in.

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