aids patients and this is the same man who speaks about the necessity of protecting traditional marriage and you think the two don't mesh but in terms of the catholic church's teaching they mesh perfectly there is great love for those who are afflicted with the diseases that are characteristic of a sexual practice that the church sees as harmful and her message is one of love we want to assure that we love all people and that these behaviors are harmful for the body and they're harmful for the soul and so that's why the message of pope francis in his former life so for speak so powerfully he is one who loves greatly all people is willing to not only care for as the catholic church does care for more aids victims throughout the world than any other institution but also shows great love and the love enough to say by the way that behavior is

damaging for you and we don't want you to do it sister myra what would what do you want to see the pope do first what's up with the you know the give me the agenda well. listen to this i agree with them but i'm i'm just holding back my real opinions no you know because people can change you know things that's one of the dangers but i think he's got some brush on his agenda this poor man that the first thing he has to do is reform the curia get rid of the curia and go back to that can too and gets some bishops working with him and make the curia what it should be is the civil service the secretaries of the church now if that's not done he won't go anywhere so as far as women's ordination is concerned come to that later but he i don't know what the others feel but i feel that really strongly we've got to do that i mean he's got to develop the greater the importance of the local churches he's talked about bishops and the importance of the bishops and they've got to make . but the authority that has been taken away from them because we have an over

centralized power food church you cannot make decisions in rome on people who live the other side of the world live very differently because everything has to be in its context or you come for example to talk to europe about some you can't today women just to take that because europe is ready for it but some of the other countries like quite understand that so we can all change at the same time so for me the first thing i should see is who is he going to appoint what's he going to do with here we're just totally corrupt ok done reverend diane hall how do you feel about that i mean enormous reform i certainly agree i do think that sister is right when you have to start with the curia and this mindset that hierarchical clericalism that is to me a virus or a disease that has spread through the church and when again in

seminaries when men are taught that they once they are deigned they are the closest image of god. i think that's a false notion that needs to be eradicated and exercised from the church is. not teaching i think it's a false teaching and i also believe that once that is done people will come to an understanding of the priesthood as a servant ministry priests are called bishops are called cardinals are called the pope is called to serve others and i hope that from that we will get to that egalitarian understanding that all of us by our baptism are loved by god and there needs to be a place in every church that is catholic that includes all. the compassionate ministerial way ok john henry trickle down effect one man do

this. well for one thing i unfortunately have to disagree with your other two guests while it is true i mean the church needs reform i guess as a human institution or an institution started by christ but sort of run and work with by people will always be in need of reform however that reform cannot take place with defined teaching like changing defined teaching let's say on abortion or contraception or homosexual marriage or civil unions for that matter but also with women priests that will never be in the catholic church as the pope has put well i don't why not why not find why you know why no that's not to say. well why not for one thing they one of your other speakers there i think it was myra who suggested that you know it was only men and that's hierarchical or you know thing that made up by men well first of all it was made up or come up pretty

quickly here point to the twelve apostles he appointed peter as their head so he he appointed the hierarchical structure himself jesus did but we have to remember in this. the young will that you. have to understand pretty high number the mother of christ who has an idea ok sister go ahead sister in law bear is a very good season as you say some but mary if mary's be put on a pedestal by the church and if she has she she has a great ministerial role and so do women she is one of the foremost people really who should speak for women as priests in the church but the problem is john you live again the old theology i don't mean he said it you just take a picture is all those men going in i mean i'm a bit older i don't. know but it's a male ranch it is not comfortable and it's known it is a fourth line that runs right through it and there's nothing in scripture to say

that christ or date any priests. the mandal female you come up good but descriptive see. the good church almost think you're trying to and you're making a joke really because it's so obvious absolutely on your good little. sister the large story already know a little bit about what i mean specifically that you wanted to go there was an. excuse me. excuse me i go like i said i don't like to see for many years. for many years in my in my education i really believed what you believed on that jesus appointed the twelve apostles but as i grew and came to understand the early church and i was privileged to have education beyond that studying not just the scriptures but the.

wonderful writings of the early church that have been uncovered in the last forty fifty years it is very notable that jesus did not start a hierarchical church that that began in the fourth century with constantine up until that time women as a matter of fact for the first twelve hundred years of christianity played a major role in being ministerial leaders in all faiths communities around the mediterranean as far as france and this is noted that women were bishops women were priests women were deacons and it would be a great boon to the entire globe to have this archaeological information brought to the fore so that all catholics could understand the

world view that we've been given is not. the whole picture ok john henry go ahead jump in unfortunately i've done reading that's obviously very different from your own and it states first of all in scripture that christ did indeed establish a hierarchical priesthood he in fact appointed peter the head of the church he said to him you are rock and upon this rock art will build my church he appointed the twelve apostles and they were all men and by the way did women play a huge role in the church yes they did there was mary the mother of jesus who was revered right from the time that she was still alive and she was assumed into heaven as we know from the early writings of the church she was revered as a saint immediately she was looked to by the church she was lived with the apostle john and they went to her for counsel at the last excuse me at the pen acosta who led them in prayer that the holy spirit would come down upon them it was mary the

mother of god and so have women played a massive role in the church since its founding absolutely they have but does that role suggest that there has to be a male priesthood you know the priesthood is in the image of christ and christ was a man but there was never this kind of contention male women contention back then mary the mother of jesus and the muslims i'd like to just jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on pope francis stayed with are. leaving.

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across soccer all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the new pope. this is tomorrow in london a lot of people associate the catholic church with scandal today unfortunately how do they get out of that. that's a difficult question. the only way we can get out of it and put us all into it you know not in my name we say. we didn't cause a scandal and i'm not willing to take the blame for this scandal i knew all about paedophilia ice around the school we knew all about it in one nine hundred eighty s. it's the people who caused the scandal and unfortunately i have to keep saying that if you go to an all male cop you haven't got any other influence there and that's

why diane or myself are talking to strongly about the they need to be inclusive of everybody in this church and the decision making we just can't go on like this i could say a lot more about the people of god in search of the we're all in this together but i am very concerned that some of the views in the west haven't moved enough and i can understand what john things and like you know diane i've been through all of that but have the experience of women in the frustration of having to watch to to watch and listen sometimes to sermons but from people who were really really priests were behind the years they've got nothing much to offer so we've really got to look at this why is the church so frightened of women there isn't a doctrine on it and you know that really is we haven't got time to discuss that ok reverend i only want to jump in there yes i am very interested in this because

i as i grew up i grew up in a church that was very egalitarian it was a catholic church. we had many different ethnic groups and it where we were on the verge of vatican two so when i was doing my ministry. for many many years i grew up with vatican two c. allergy in which i ingested and all of the people that are in my family in jet. did the fact that we as baptized people are active living conscious face full that we embrace the church and all of the people that surround it it was only when i began my ministry as a sister that i. came in touch with this hierarchical clericalism i did not get it although i had heard about it but it wasn't my

it wasn't part of my world view and as i learned about it i found it was extremely painful and also hurtful both to the priests themselves to the communities they served and also to the church because we were left in a way of does believe and dysfunction. like sister had experienced pedophilia and you know one of my children that i taught was one of the victims. all are only avenue was to tell the bishop which we did. and come to find out years later he was just moved to three or four other paid places so that he could have views others i was in the state of shock and like sister this is not my church this isn't the church i signed up for so when we're talking about catholicism there's

a fundamentalist view that needs to be examined and that fundamentalist view needs to be. not not in a sense exposed but we need not fight it we just need to claim it but also hear from so many other voices what will best serve the people of god for the future ok john henry's church in the twenty first century i mean you do want to respond to what we've heard so far in this part of the program lot of criticism there. i think really what we need to understand that it was a liberal view if you will not a fundamentalist you are conservative traditional view especially traditional view that led to the disaster and the horror of what we've experienced in the church and it's not only be experienced in the church it's been experience of course in many other denominations many other institutions teaching for instance which is

a hardly a rate of sexual abuse among their teachers of students however to see it in the church is a horror story and this totally inexcusable behavior of allowing this to continue as as myra said to to to to hear about the thing and then shuffle on people to somewhere else where they can abuse other children. john history isn't that really going on except that is the mindset of the church that's the mindset of the church unfortunately isn't it. this is the criticism the let's the going to be known as all exactly what exactly it had been held thank you and the pope benedict who have both apologized today if i could just finish my point both popes have apologized wholeheartedly and changed the landscape in terms of how we deal with this never to be shoved on never to be shoved under the carpet to be dealt with and the key area in which it was dealt with to it was to for bid people

with deep seated homosexuality from entering seminary because we know that was over eighty percent of the cases was actually ephebophilia not actually pedophilia where it was homo sexual abuse and being put into would all be a priest with all males around obviously that's an invitation to that kind of thing and so that had to be dealt with and once reverend die and you want to say something go right ahead go ahead is going to want to first i think. i first first of all what i'd like to say is that there's a difference between the church and the hierarchy that the church when you're talking about the church and this is a language issue that i have a lot of a philip affinity for because we need to call the hierarchy. the hierarchy when we're talking about the laws and rules that they have made over us that come over us and that. speak for us they don't speak for me so therefore i say these are hierarchical rules that have been posed and that's i don't agree at all

that homosexuality is one of the main causes for pedophilia that has been proven scientifically wrong and i do agree with you don that totally that's point needs to be your system or go ahead jump in here go yes very much sisters are going to if it's going to london look i agree with diana totally we can't do it we don't can't blame home but people who are gay or homosexual or the peter feel here is much wider than that but the problem of the church is it's very much more serious here and it's widespread. and if we can't look a secular society as well because that's a whole different thing so it's a very serious thing and the coverups i hardly know any bishop that hasn't done the cover up and they haven't got caught. i would say a lot of it hasn't come out we haven't heard about developing countries shit because they haven't got the research that we've got it's

a widespread thing and to face it is all for but this really is not this is the much to do with women's ordination women's ordination is another thing altogether. because i mean this is very difficult to say but there's a hierarchy of truths and a lot of the truth of the put into dogma shouldn't be there and one that shouldn't be there is women's ordination that should be in the social teaching of the. because that can change the letter that came out today and it should not be considered as a double but it's not a definite if they call it just infallible it wouldn't dead they are and i want to i want you i want to change gears a little bit here ok john henry the fact that he comes from argentina how important is that absolutely well i think nowadays with the majority of the church from latin america i think it sends a great message of hope it is sent a message of the international scope of the church i am blessed to travel all over

the world and really the church is universal you see the church in different nations wherever you go people practicing the faith beautifully praying the rosary going to mass and this one this is really accentuated with a pope from latin america diana you are you happy that we have one pope from the south finally. i am i'm happy he's a jesuit. i am happy that he has definitely bent down and worked with the poor but he has stances against homosexuality that i think is. a little off putting for the people that i work with because right now i'm working in an inclusive community of. people who actually have been thrown out of their own churches because of their sexual orientation so i really work very hard for gender equality and all of its forms so as to my randy i'm hoping that the pope will

change i think once you leave your only job in there go ahead that's ahead john henry go ahead jump in are just hopes there reverend that you are communicating to those people that you're dealing with who are you know with inclinations toward homosexuality i'm hoping that you're being and giving to them the churches message of love because the church doesn't want to make everybody feel bad for their different inclinations they want to share the message of love and it's love to tell people that of behavior that they're engaged in is dangerous for them it's only love that causes me to tell my two year old son get away from the sun to cook because you're going to fall down and you might enjoy it up there and think it's great and you know go for pulling away but it's real love to tell people the behavior and gaged it is dangerous and we love you enough to tell you that even if the world thinks we're you know nasty and mean for doing so it's really a message of love and i really hope that you're giving that to those sister myra

i'm going to give you the last word in the program going to go ahead in london but i just once i just want to talk about this presidency we've got i'm very happy come from the south i love this idea of poverty and let's get let's let's support him because he's going to need a lot of it and john talked a lot about love a totally we all love that's the problem and we have to somehow learn to. bridge builds and all of us need to reeducate ourselves in certain areas we're all full of certain prejudices we're all full of certainty on the chance that don't pay the bill and i love the unity of the church but we have to look at not you know we don't want uniformity we have to keep the unity big don't talk more i do folks we've run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks a day to my guests in london atlanta and in ottawa and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk what. we see. is.

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