six that have the west concent department of natural resources put up breaks on the beach but perhaps the real question should be who travels all the way to wisconsin to get naked on a beach for those of you wondering the beach will remain open on the weekends and that's going to do it for now see here at eight pm. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle almost twenty years after the genocide some claim that rwanda is not only on the mend now but also could be considered a development model for other african countries to follow what accounts for rwanda's turnaround is it due to good governance or is it because of western foreign aid aid some say is given because of a guilty conscience. to

discuss the situation in rwanda i'm joined by on the revolt chick in nairobi he is a novelist filmmaker and an investigative journalist in washington we have anthony kim he is the senior policy analyst at the center for international trade and economics and in london we crossed to michael amoa he is an expert on africa at the london school of economics ok anthony if i could go to you first how would you describe the situation in rwanda because there's a lot of positive news coming out but there's a lot of political news that isn't so positive so give me the balance. that's true what one there is going to do is kind of interesting transition as we have seen has been making a lot of positive progress in terms of economic development over the past twenty years so this is a combination of both good governance and less than forty in aid but more importantly it's desirable the one people they want to achieve

a better future that's why they've been implementing a lot of good policies in terms of moving forward the countries ok michael in london how would you assess the situation in the country. i mean i think i can say that you know g.d.p. for example has been increased for the past three years at least it was about seven point two percent in two thousand and ten went up to eight point six percent in two thousand and eleven and seven point seven percent in two thousand and twelve so the g.d.p. figures does show that the countries where all the of course the public debt has also been too high for example public debt in two thousand and eleven was twenty four point five percent and that came down to twenty one point eight percent in two thousand and twelve it's come down but public debt of twenty percent in any country is quite alarming so i think that for a country like rwanda which has fewer natural resources and so long look country to

be doing so well it's a sign about good governance is taking place but michael if i can stay with you i mean a lot of people say it's because of foreign aid. forty percent of the budget is foreign aid well yes some part of the budget is foreign aid but i think the important message is what extent the aid is being applied properly i mean we have instances where aid is given and be squandered by politicians but with the evidence we see on the ground suggests that the aid is actually being used for the purposes for economic purposes for developmental purposes and that you rwanda seems to be seriously wanting to come back to the road map of the world to try and get out of the the horrendous genocide that took place twenty years ago ok under a year you made a documentary called rwanda gambit ok what if you what have you heard on this program that you agree with or disagree with go ahead. i fully disagree because

actually i don't think we can even talk about the economic growth with a clear conscious in iran though because most of the economic growth comes from the absolutely. unbelievable plunder of the neighboring country. on behalf of the vesting company and list of governments that is an absolute cover up we are talking about the genocide in ninety ninety four but in fact there were two genocides one in nine hundred ninety four and there is ongoing genocide in which between six and ten million congolese people died and of course. uganda in unison out of plundering congo that's the essence of the economic growth. absolutely a known fact in europe in the united states it's an absolute cover up anthony cover up go ahead how would you respond is too much i don't think i don't think that's what's happening here as we know many people know that they were movie save hotel rwanda but today's wonder is different because i mean it's very vibrant and the

gross rate is real since two thousand and ten and the economy it's even more than seven percent g.d.p. growth rate per year yes the country is going to. very tough transition but we have to recognize that development pass rwanda has been mapping out in terms of promoting economic freedom it's not an easy process it's not going to be done overnight but the country has been moving tours for greater economic freedom again it's not an easy process but the country has been demonstrating its willingness to achieve economic development they need it michel is there is economic development for everyone is everyone treated the same in the country. i mean that is impossible in any country but in rwanda we can say that forty four point five percent of the country is to live in under the poverty line. and ninety percent of the country basically ninety percent of the labor force are basically unfun this

striving you know from from the bare land the number of the rich people in the country and we kind of guarantee that the development is actually being spread equally across. the states however what we can say michel to let you don't you think that's important considering the genocide was committed there. yes the i mean to actually come out of. they genocide is a very big task you have to realize that. with a country a country like rwanda with such few resources having to sit down and actually recover from the reconsideration process let alone have the presence of mind to actually engage in development with ninety percent of the of the of people just being peasant farmers you have to wonder where is the development going to come from and how it's going to take place so you're talking about a steady hand of governance you know with government steadily implementing think

state by state out of nothing to get to where they are at the moment so the way least even if some things are being taken out of the congo they're still the fact that some steady hand is actually shaping however many my development east taking place ok under a under a go ahead jump in how would you react to that. i filmed in the on the great lakes region for more than three years traveled all over rwanda first of all i don't buy for one second the story about the economic development as i said it's from blundering of course internally that gone through absolutely horrific shape you can if you come to kigali of course you see the clean roads and clean clear buildings you see it along the three or four main roads you go all of that main shock and you see mel nutrition. the state of food occasion

social services sort of horrific when i was filming did all the five to seven percent of the population that access to electricity and this is to people for example which was also starting from year to zero which is almost a hundred percent of the people have access to electricity it's a new a liberal it's a suitable capitalist model very much in washington and in london and it's absolutely. irresponsible to say that there is any social equality i mean the plunder that the forming can go to distributing among the population the same can be said about uganda and other you know go who are in this project and you know don't also complex story suppose genocide let's talk only about genocide of ninety ninety four zero four zero hutu skilling tutsis that was also preceding issue of.

attacking rwanda and shooting probably down the airplane but that ended and boom the end presidents something that i have testimonies from the united nations investigative sume crown prosecutors who was sidelined by the united nations and. forced to resign when they found out that the book is full of the responsible for shooting down the airplane anything that wasn't anthony. and the on board anthony you know it's seems like we in the in the media you want to have a good story about rwanda because of the genocide i mean is this because of guilt in the west noah well i don't i don't think so necessary i mean here is a situation i think the gentleman's point i think there was a peter in london his point was very one sided in a sense i mean i understand that as a film director he was on the ground looking at those situations but again we are talking about luanda genocide since one thousand nine hundred four making step by

step development it's not going to be a one year process or a two year process the country has been moving to better and greater economic environment well again a lot of people are still suffering there is no doubt about it but if you look into it in a big picture the country has been making progress in terms of but delivering better social development in terms of you know education and health well let's compare. what happened you know before nine hundred ninety four and now so it's a work in progress that any single country has achieved any significant economic development or a one year or two year process twenty years later rwanda is a different place twenty years ago michael again i want to stay with the guilt issue is that why aid goes there because nothing was done during the genocide. years i'm not completely agree with the analysis is that once you move out of kigali it's all just rural. and that's very true i mean you grew up in

the us you know it is actually the most densely populated country in africa we're talking about some one thousand people per square mile and that's not enough for public wealth to go around and i think what's clear that we start there has been stable government for the past twenty years and showing some stability and some security however we also know that you are the house contributed to the easter bunny to next door in the congo. for which mark you know. as you say your country just happily to rwanda but contributed to establish the next oh nobody actually knows what the repercussions might be either in the now in the distant future so we need to bear that in mind as well ok gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on rwanda stay party.

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to hit stunning in a few hours from new york to maine we have team coverage of the storm. but we're watching is the very heavy snow moving into boston proper earlier today it was very sticky you can see it start to become much more powdery down to the bottom line there is still a lot of snow out here a good place for snowball fight. d.c. it is going to pretty incredible day there and even record snowfall throughout much of in life nobody's allowed to be driving lessons from emergency vehicles are exceptions. let me let me i want to let me ask you a question from. here on this network as we're having the debate we have our knives out. to bring you the sights back staying there again here in the situation will be i'd like to talk about the surveillance.

wealthy british style. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to

mind you were discussing the situation in rwanda. on there how would you describe the government in the country. well it's a it's a fascist dictatorship basically you have got almost behaving as a serial murder. he goes after the opposition you know this man is not really just killing people at home he's going to go after them to london in london in south africa just about every i interviewed two people from so-called gang of four i have them on the record they are all out of context and you probably want to know that most of the western viewers snow or your viewers know the from the film called hotel rwanda correct. demanded the manager of the hotel isis a beginner it's also in exile now in south africa so even the man who the best

decision he did as a national hero of rwanda who was supposed to be saving tutsis. from bad who to see sexually exult he's in south africa so basically half of the kaga most men are abroad the opposition main opposition of figure to be in god is in prison the us. famous us defense attorney peter erlinder who came to defend her ended up in jail for so-called genocide denier denying of the genocide. i mean even the best of media even the police of london will sworn in go after the election supposed about the danger for the people who are who are crossing. now this is about this on the opposition but what about eight to ten million people or six to ten million people depending on the balance in congo. it's absolutely

unbelievable that we can sit here and even discuss the issue of the economical grows. everything is congo is being blown there are twelve children been. man a kill today destroyed that was the u.n. mapping report do years ago let the u.n. track down the activities that will serve the some very poor there are reports of one after another and western mass media is just refusing one of the really one of the reasons that's one of the biggest why we're doing this program anthony would you like to reply to anything we just heard yeah i think that's why i guess i only have misspoken petered out it was andre's point of what i was saying was one sided yes i mean those political situation and security situation it's quite a recent it's a developing situation we have to look into are really in detail and still you know ongoing very already some situation i recognize that so that's a political part but we cannot summed it up as

a consequence or the outcome of twenty years of big rondo's economic development anthony should be one thousand nine hundred forty and it's been the drawing if the if the country is governed that way should be good be given aid. well now we have to reassess that again did wonders success over the last twenty years is that soley depend. of the forty nine eight the country had the willingness to develop its own economy through better policies that promotes economic freedom for people who are gay and i wonder how that the country's work in progress and the country's at a critical crossroad at this point ok michael how do you settle in light on the government in the country. when under a said wasn't very nice ok clearly. having one thing that's clear i mean i think the common factor in this case that there's been a steady hand there hasn't been a change in government and he seems to be fairly in control we have to realize

he's got some three to four years to go given this time this political stability there is still be creative i mean for economic growth i think one significant factor though is to do with the resent surrender of. who is the who has been the head of the m twenty three rebel group and now that he's firmly in the hands of the i.c.c. when he's actually extradited. to the hague we know once the trial begins he will start singing and then we're going to know the real part of the has been played by the rwandan government in the congolese rebellion problem. it would appear that some of the evidence that is required by the international community to actually judge the government to rwanda is potentially on the way and will have to know where to take off from there but what it most important actually is that there has been stuck with eighty within which up at least you know some

sort of growth can take place in fact all part of the issue with rwanda is actually that half of the country is within the fifteen to fifty four wage group which actually means that they have a kind of a. younger population and of course you've got the north to fourteen percent also about forty percent. of the of the country so it would appear that you're going to have a country that with a young guy with a young population for the next ten to twenty to thirty years who if they actually put their hand to the plough and are serious. to the country alex its current economic status into a better one if they work hard now under franco do you why is the government given a free pass what's the agenda. of both basically serving the interests of the first. congo has called them all using our mobile phones. which is used for defense there are diamonds that is separating so

basically it was always said the interest of the u.k. and the us to support this brush and star state because it's just blundering you know it's not it's not trading it's plundering now the speaking about economy. like saying that nazi germany experienced economic growth while it was sponsoring france and poland and the part of soviet union during the during the second world war of course it did enormous economic growth so the saranda it's a fascist state which occupies one of the richest countries so nerd or part of it which is the our congo and most of its richest part actually which is i have in my film. former u.n. h.c.r. head who is openly openly telling me how the extraction of materials is happening how the smuggling. but all materials through or through uganda how it goes through kenya all this is where it will documented there is no there are no

disputes. on the military part is going back already for genocide pre nine hundred ninety four. u.s. ambassador robert flood the film former u.s. ambassador to the on the before nine hundred ninety four that the u.s. was actually. supporting militarily r.p.s. football gama been r.p. of paul kagame a bit of based in uganda you should not forget that book of intelligence military intelligence chief of uganda can you imagine a intelligence chief in the neighboring going through so he was sitting on the border we flew on the before the night to full shelling is soon going to be performing crates and it was fully supported from the united states so this is this is on the ticker this comes from the u.s. former u.s. ambassador to all the snow the fact that this is a known fact in that is

a total mystery medical ok anthony would you like to reply to what andrea say yeah absolutely i mean again with all due respect andrea's point again i think it's a bit short side one sided and it's very narrow blind you know there's nothing really to look at anybody is it true is it true does he have the facts right let me busy have yeah let's get to the fact there's only one yes well his facts well he knows the political situation probably better than i do about let me separate these two issues economic issues and political issues in terms of economic issues rwanda has been developing its own economy since one thousand nine hundred four but the country's development process hasn't been finished yet the country has a lot of challenging situation in terms of institutional building the current government it has a lot of problems in terms of protecting property rights installing strong law and effective a lot law as a matter of fact and a lot of corruption pervasive across on to those key issues must be addressed if

the one dollar wants to continue its own economic development without western fourteen aid without any instability ongoing so it's a critical time for wanda to go through this political transition as well as economic transition ok under your disagreeing go ahead. can i ask the gentleman who just spoke what is what are the main economic indicators it's export of tea and coffee isn't it and it's three times less sort of than the. official export of coltan up through on the end of the old no the through on the does not produce school. and it's not only going to buzz phrase g.d.p. . go ahead of any country is a building of its base so a lot of infrastructure construction so a lot of those those kind of basic stuff is standing waiting in total economic

development yes exports are important but the country has been in a really really messy dire situation before one thousand nine hundred four but since then the country has been moving towards a right direction the process has been finished once again it's all knowing it was an idea for a country is willing to underwrite you want to have trees are willing to develop it's already here on the night before it was the. hit on the day before ninety ninety four actually before nine hundred ninety four the country had the economic problems because it got totally destabilized by i.m.f. isn't that so. but i mean you can you know blame wherever you know i am mad for capitalism a lot about that but what is important at this point is since one thousand nine hundred four people. they want to have a better economy they want to have a better future that's why they build up their already commune i think that gentleman in nairobi mentioned something very important the young population they

want greater economic freedom to have a better economic future so that's why i say as i said earlier this is very critical time for lawanda this kind of political situation as well as on going economic development they have to find out really how to get to the kind of these ideals and i go to london i mean is rwanda just at the center of an asset grab actually known who are. naturally and i think you see there explored but if you name it it's been a concern is but its neighbor is. well ok you know you got tons and maybe there are things around i think what they're actually broken against at the moment it's to do with transportation or links to the road that you sort of look the ass to rely on all these neighbors to be able to transport things so that's why exports may need to kenya and uganda run and tons and you're in neighboring countries and of course you have to rely on these countries to bring imports in as well essentially the whole picture is that this is a country

a poor country with very little to go around tried to money its meager resources so that the lead up to build development from scratch from states right and that is that i'm going to have to gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here would run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests in nairobi washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time and remember. these. old. technology innovations all the latest developments from

around russia we've got the future covered. the worst. white house of the day. what. have you never seen anything like this i'm told. the war. in.

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