hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle almost twenty years after the genocide some claim that rwanda is not only on the mend now but also could be considered a development model for other african countries to follow what accounts for rwanda's turnaround is it due to good governance or is it because of western foreign aid aid some say is given because of a guilty conscience. to discuss the situation in rwanda i'm joined by on the revolt check in nairobi he is a novelist filmmaker and an investigative journalist in washington we have anthony

kim he is a senior policy analyst at the center for international trade and economics and in london we crossed to michael amoa he is an expert on africa at the london school of economics ok anthony if i could go to you first how would you describe the situation in rwanda because there's a lot of positive news coming out but there's a lot of political news that isn't so positive so give me the balance. that's true what is going through is kind of interesting transition as we have seen has been making a lot of positive progress in terms of economic development over the past twenty years so this is a combination of both good governance and rest some forty but more importantly the gyro the one people want to cheer better a future that's why they've been implementing a lot of good policies in terms of moving forward the countries ok michael in london how would you assess the situation in the country. i mean i think i can say that you know g.d.p.

for example has been increase here for the past three years at least it was about seven point two percent in two thousand and ten went up to eight point six percent in two thousand and eleven and seven point seven percent in two thousand and twelve so the g.d.p. figures does show that the countries where. of the of course the public debt has also been too high for example public debt in two thousand and eleven was twenty four point five percent and that came down to twenty one point eight percent in two thousand and twelve it's come down but public debt of twenty percent in any country is quite alarming so i think that for a country like rwanda which has fewer natural resources and so long look country to be doing so well it's a sign that good governance is taking place but michael if i can stay with you i mean a lot of people say it's because of foreign aid. forty percent of the budget is foreign aid yes some part of the budget it's foreign aid but i think the important message

is to what extent the aid is being applied properly i mean we have instances where aid is given and be squandered by politicians but with the evidence we see on the ground suggests that the aid is actually being used for the purposes for economic purposes for developmental purposes and that you rwanda seems to be seriously you want to. to come back to the road map of the world to try to get out of the the horrendous genocide that took place twenty years ago ok under a year you made a documentary called rwanda gambit ok what if you what have you heard on this program that you agree with or disagree with go ahead. i fully disagree because actually i don't think we can even talk about the economic growth of the clear conscious in their own though because most of the economic growth comes from the absolutely. unbelievable plunder of the neighboring come to see them go on

behalf of a certain company invest in governments that is an absolute cover up there talking about the genocide in one thousand nine hundred forty but in fact to genocide in one thousand nine hundred four and there is ongoing genocide in which between six and ten million congolese people died and of course in uganda in unison out of blundering that's the essence of the economic growth. absolutely a known fact in europe in the united states it's an absolute cover to anthony cover up go ahead how would you respond is too much i don't think i don't think that's what's happening here as we know many people know that there were movies save hotel rwanda but today's wonder is different because i mean it's very vibrant and the growth rate is we'll since two thousand and ten the economy achieved more than seven percent g.d.p. growth rate per year yes the country is going to be very tough transition but we have to recognize that development pass rwanda has been mapping out in terms of promoting economic freedom it's not an easy process it's not going to be done

overnight but the country has been moving tours for greater economic freedom again it's not an easy process but the country has been demonstrating its willingness to achieve economic development they needed michael is economic development for everyone is everyone treated the same in the country. i mean that is impossible in any country buyouts in rwanda we can say that forty four point five percent of the country are still living under the poverty line. and ninety percent of the country are basically ninety percent of the labor force are basically peasant farmers striving you know from from the bare land. really rich people in the country and we kind of guarantee that the development is actually being spread equally across. the states however what we can say michael told you don't you think

that's important considering the genocide was committed there. yes the i mean to actually come out of. the genocide is a very big task you have to realize that. with a country a country like rwanda with such few resources having to sit down and actually recover from the reconsideration process let alone have the presence of mind to actually engage in development with ninety percent of the of people just being peasant farmers you have to wonder where is the development going to come from and how is it going to take place so you're talking about the hand of governance you know with government steadily implementing think state by state out of nothing to get to where they are at the moment so the very least even if some things are being taken out of. congo they're still the fact that some steady hand is actually

shaping however many mark development east taking place ok under a under a go ahead jump in how would you react to that. i filmed in the on the great lakes region for more than three years travelled all over rwanda first of all i don't buy for one second the story about the economic development as i said it's from blundering of course internally the companies are. in a horrific shape you can if you come to good golly of course you see the clean roads and clean clear buildings you see it along the three or four main roads you go all of that main track and you see mel nutrition river the state of food occasion social services sort of horrific when i was filming did all the five to seven percent of the population at access to electricity and this is to people listed for example which was also starting from year to zero which has access almost two hundred percent of the people have access to electricity it's a mule liberal it's

a suitable carbon. model but it much admired in washington and in london and it's absolutely irresponsible to say that there is any social equality i mean the plunder that the forming can go to distributing among the population the same can be said about uganda and other you know go who are in this project and you know they're also very complex story simple genocide let's talk only about genocide of ninety ninety four zero four zero zero hutu skilling tutsis that was also preceding issue of. attacking rwanda and shooting probably down the airplane but that ended and boom the and presidents something that i have testimonies from the united nations investigative sume crown prosecutors who was sidelined by the united nations and. forced to resign when they found out that the

bulk. of the responsible for shooting down the airplane. was an anthony. and the on board anthony you know it's seems like we in the in the media you want to have a good story about rwanda because of the genocide i mean is this because of guilt in the west noah well i don't i don't think so necessary i mean here's a situation i think the gentleman's point i think there was a peter in london his point was very one sided in a sense i mean i understand that as a fellow and director he was on the ground looking at those situations but again we are talking about luanda genocide since one thousand nine hundred four making step by step development it's not going to be a one year process or a two year process the country has been moving to better and greater economic environment well again a lot of people are still suffering there is no doubt about it but if you look into it in

a big picture the country has been making progress in terms of about delivering. better social development in terms of you know health well let's compare what happened you know before one thousand nine hundred four and now so it's a work in progress that any single country has achieved any significant economic development or one year or two year process twenty years later rwanda is a different place twenty years ago michael again i want to stay with the guilt issue is that why aid goes there because nothing was done during the genocide. years i'm not completely agree with the our knowledge says that once you move out of kigali it's all just rural. and that's very true i mean you grew up in the us you know it is actually the most densely populated country in africa we're talking about some one thousand people per square mile and that's not enough for public wealth to go around and i think what's clear that we start there has

been stable government for the past twenty years and showing some stability and some security however we also know that you are the house contributed to the easter bunny to next door in congo. either. for which my time you know. as you say you've seen roundabout contributed to establish the next oh nobody actually knows what the repercussions might be either in the now in the distant future so we need to bear that in mind as well ok gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on who want to stay at r.t. . this is.

when the really good returns for the living loving mothers. sometimes have to leave their children behind. i don't like to work just a bed longer. is the dream of millions of migrants that their children might choose their own motherland. i was blown ins doesn't stand. oh my room is in a mood. i want my children to win over moscow. russia has become this stepmother land. migrants working hard to find a way home. welcome

back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the situation in rwanda. on there how would you describe the government in the country. well it's a it's a fascist dictatorship basically you have got almost behaving as a serial murderer. he goes after the opposition you know this man is not really just killing people at home he's going to go after them to london in london in

south africa just about every i interviewed two people from so-called gang of four i have them on the record they are all out of country and you probably want to know that most of the western viewers snow or your viewers know the from the film called hotel rwanda correct. demanded the manager of the hotel. i says a beginner it's also in exile now in south africa so even the man who the best this ignited as a national hero of rwanda who was supposed to be saving tutsis. from bad who to see sexually exiled he's in south africa so basically half of the kaga most men are abroad the opposition main opposition of figure victoire. is in prison the u.s. . famous u.s. defense attorney peter erlinder who came to defend her ended up in jail for the

so-called genocide denial that denying of the genocide. i mean even the western media even the police of london of else warning after the elections. about the danger for the people who are crossing. now this is about this on opposition but what about eight to ten million people or six to ten million people depending on the balance in congo. it's absolutely unbelievable that we can sit here and even discuss the issue of the economical grows. ever think it's congo is being plundered while children berman of man are a killed today to destroy. that was that you had not been going to board do years ago let the u.n. drag down the activities that will suit the soon to be border reports one after another must meet is just refusing one of the really one of the reasons that's one of the things why we're doing this program and to me would you like to reply to

anything we just heard yeah i think that's why i guess i only have spoken. out it was andres point of what i was saying it was one sided yes i mean those political situation and security situation it's kind of ricin it's a developing situation we have to look into really in detail and still you know ongoing where we already some teachers and i recognize that so that's a political part but we cannot summed it up as a consequence or the outcome of all twenty years of the rondo's economic development anthony why should it be one thousand nine hundred and it's been drawing if the if the country is governed that way should begin be given aid. mean well now we have to reassess that again did wonders success over the last twenty years is that soley depends. of the forty nine eight the country had the willingness to develop its own economy through better policies that promotes economic freedom for people again i wonder how that the countries work in progress

and the country's at a critical crossroad at this point ok michael how do you settle in life on the government in the country. when under age said wasn't very nice ok clearly. having one thing that's clear i mean i think the common factor in this is that there's been a steady hand there hasn't been a change in government and poor cabbie seems to be fairly in control. we have to realize he's got some three to four years to go in this time there's political stability there is still be creative vironment for economic growth i think one significant factor though is to do with the resent surrender of. who is the who has been the head of the m twenty three rebel group and now that he's firmly in the hands of the i.c.c. when he's actually extradited. to the hague we know once the trial begins he will

start singing and then we're going to know the real part of the has been played by the rwandan government in the congolese rebellion problem. it would appear that some of the evidence that is required by the international community to actually judge the government of rwanda is potentially on the way and will have to know where to take it from there will be the most important thing actually is that there has been stuck with eighty within which at least some sort of growth can take place in fact all part of the issue with rwanda is actually that half of the country is within the fifteen to fifty four wage group which actually means that they have a kind of a. population and of course you've got the north to fourteen percent also about forty percent. of the of the country so it would appear that you're going to have a country that with a young guy with a young population for the next ten to twenty to thirty years who actually put their hand to the plough and are serious. to the country alex its current economic

status into a better one if they work hard enough under a franco uy if the government given a free pass what's the agenda. of the basically serving the interests of the best. congo has called them which we all use in our mobile phones. which is used for the defense of diamonds that is everything so basically it was always in the interest of the u.k. and the u.s. to support this brush and star state because it's just blundering you know it's not it's not trading it's plundering now the speaking about economy. like saying that nazi germany experienced economic growth while it was sponsoring france and poland and the part of soviet union during the during the second world war of course it did enormous economic growth so the cylinder it's a fascist state which occupies one of the richest countries so nerd or part of it

which is the our congo and most of its richest part. which is i have in my film. former u.n. h.c.r. head who is openly openly telling me how the extraction of materials is happening how the smuggling. but all materials through or through uganda how it goes through kenya all this is where it will documented there is no there are no disputes. on the military part going back already for the genocide pre nine hundred ninety four. u.s. ambassador robert flaten said on my film former u.s. ambassador to the on the before nine hundred ninety four that u.s. was actually of supporting militarily r.p.s. of paul kagame of an r.p.m. and paul kagame a bit of based in uganda you should not forget that paul kagame of intelligence

military intelligence chief of uganda can imagine a military intelligence chief in the neighboring country so he was sitting on the border with rwanda before tonight united for shelling is so i'm going to be performing crates and it was fully supported from the united states so this is this is on the record this comes from the u.s. former u.s. ambassador all the analysts know the fact that this is a known fact in the west is a total mystery medical ok anthony would you like to reply to what andrea said. yeah absolutely i mean again with all due respect andrea's point again i think it's a bit short side one sided and it's very narrow minded it isn't really to look at anybody is it true is it true does he have the facts right let me busy how do you think that's going to the factor. yes well his facts well he knows the political situation probably better than i do but let me separate these two issues economic

issues and political issues in terms of economic issues rwanda has been developing its own economy since one thousand nine hundred four but the country's development process has a min finished yet the country has a lot of challenging situation in terms of institutional building the current government it has a lot of problems in terms of protecting property rights installing strong law and effective a lot low as a matter of fact and a lot of corruption pervasive across to doze key issues must be addressed if the wanda wants to continue its own economic development with the west some forty eight without any instability ongoing so it's a critical time for the wanda to go through this political transition as well as economic transition ok on that or you're disagreeing go ahead. can i ask the gentleman who just spoke of what is the. main economic indicators it's

export the fifty and go for it isn't it and it's three times less sort of than the . official export of gold through on the m.b. old know that through on the does not produce school. and is not only going to become series g d p. go ahead of any country is a building of its base so a lot of infrastructure construction so a lot of those those kind of basic stuff is standing waiting in total economic development yes exports are important but the country has been in a really really messy dire situation before one thousand nine hundred four but since then the country has been moving towards a right direction the process has been finished once again it's all knowing the. country is willing to under you want to be actually is willing to develop its own ninety four to. zero before ninety ninety four actually before the nine hundred ninety four come through that the it could all be programs

because it got totally destabilized the way i am move isn't that. what i mean you can you know blame wherever you know i am mad for capitalism a lot about that but what is important at this point is since one thousand nine hundred four people. they want to have a better economy they want to have a better future that's why they build up their already economy and i think the gentleman in nairobi mentioned something very important the young population they want greater you can i mean freedom to have a better economic future so that's why i say as i said earlier this is very critical time for lawanda this kind of political situation as well as ongoing economic development they have to find out really how to get to the kind of these ideals and i go to london i mean is rwanda just at the center of an asset grab actually known who are not naturally and i see eric's point but if you name it it's been a concern is but its neighbor is. walk. may

be there are things around and i think what they're actually brought to the games at the moment is to do with transportation or links to the ruin that you saw a land look the has to rely on all these neighbors to be able to transport things so that's why exports may need to kenya and uganda run and tanzania and neighboring countries and of course he has to rely on these countries to bring imports in as well essentially the whole picture is that this is a country a poor country with very little to go around tried to manage its meager resources so that the leaders are to build development from scratch from stage right now but just look i'm going to have to gentlemen i'm going to have to jump in here we have run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks to you my guests in nairobi washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here argue see you next time and remember.

these evil. let me let me one will let me ask you a question from. here on this network because we're having the debate we have our knives out. to bring you this trial just about staying there to get here in a situation where b. and i don't agree to talk about the surveillance. wealthy british style. that's not on the typewriter.

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