you live on one hundred thirty three bucks a month for food i should try it because you know how fabulous i had lunch i got so many i mean at a town i know that i'm sitting seems really messed up. in the old story so personally. it's. worse for the least a little white house or for the. radio guy and for minestrone they want closure about to produce never seen anything like this i'm telling. you guys walking and breaking the set i'm abby martin so while the supreme court was in its second day of oral arguments around gay marriage today the justice is

always also sent down a unanimous really in favor of rights for another group of individuals prisoners that's right in the case of millbrook versus the western justices ruled that the federal government cannot be sued over prisoner abuse claims against their guards it's not time prisoners had some rights considering the u.s. house is one point six million adults in state and federal institutions around the country of course we can't forget that the u.s. has only five percent of the population of the world that holds a quarter of the world's prisoners so guys this is a good move by the highest courts of the land so let's hope that they make the right decision when it comes to same sex marriage two on that note let's break the set. a little bit more of the good of you cover she's going to be like i'm trying. to. imagine this scenario you're late to work on a beautiful september morning and just as you get there you see smoke billowing out

of the office building you've missed your meeting but you've also nerve. earliest scapes death and that's exactly what happened to wall street whistleblower richard grove on september eleventh two thousand and one it is harrowing as the sounds of perhaps even more disturbing is the information grove was scheduled to present that day you see he had just discovered the company he was working for was stealing millions of dollars from a client company in fraudulent transactions when he sought to expose that information he was fired leaving him to present the evidence to the client company on the morning of nine eleven but tragically everyone who was there to listen died that day and ever since richard grove has been an outspoken voice not only against wall street fraud but also for the reshift of the way we think about and perceive information is the founder of tragedy and hope a free multimedia database of the highest academic quality information ranging from everything to philosophy to economics so to talk about his personal story and

journey to becoming a media revolutionary i'm joined now by richard grove corporate whistleblower and producer of the ultimate history lesson thanks so much richard it's an honor to have you on. thank you abby it's a pleasure to be on a big fan of the show so you're working for the software development company in two thousand responsible for the good in them their biggest client you then found out of a company you're working for was stealing money a lot graham but what exactly is it that you uncovered richard with this software. well i mean what you're talking about is ranging over ten years of experience so there's a specific instance where you mention at the end that kind of came around in two thousand and three the nine eleven whistle blowing came around in two thousand and two thousand and one after the events of nine eleven and i noticed that there was insider trading on not only to the airlines but to the clients that we were specifically providing with a cutting edge brand of software that allowed them in later years to take advantage of many clients around the world so it was a slow incremental me waking up to the naive and say of what i had been groomed to

believe through public schooling and college to the way that the corporate world really works and that led to my retirement in two thousand and three and here we are ten years later so how would you like to dip into that well of talk about the back door that you initially found and then subsequently went to your superiors and talked about what you would uncover and what happened to you so just over those things. all right so now we're talking about an instance in two thousand and three i was as i was at a different company by then and i specifically was aware of the financial fraud that was going on in the markets in two thousand to congress passed a law called the sarbanes oxley act which was a regulation set for all corporations to implement so that they couldn't have anymore tycho's or enron's or world coms and so i went to a software company specifically because they sold this regulation software in my clients were the world's largest financial services company and so in the midst of of bringing them this technology which i thought was going to help clean up the market i discovered through various clients that they wanted it to hide information

and that there were actually back doors in the software that facilitated that and that's where i became a whistleblower and you took this information richard this is the most mind blowing part to the government the securities and exchange commission physically and what did they do when you told them. well actually since two thousand and one the f.c.c. had been investigating my current employer at that time so i contacted them i expected them to say great we kind of know about different angles and this will set a different angle of light and what they said was the information i was looking to share could and me you know it could land me in prison and from there i thought well you know under the sarbanes oxley act it provides the protections for whistleblowers so i then tried to go through court for several years and when that failed when that proved to be a fallacious belief of mine that there were checks and balances like that after proving my case in court after proving everything i stated as a case they dismissed it on a technicality by moving the triggering date of the event after several years of litigation to an earlier date so that the court would be it would be out of their

jurisdiction. and then you say that they actually adopted some of the software that had these glaring errors that could facilitate money laundering themselves. well certainly the f.c.c. actually standardize on the exact software from the company that i was working for a couple months after i filed my case i saw a press release from the f.c.c. and my employer my ex employer at that time stating that they had used the new they're implementing that software that i blew the whistle on the how the back doors to help regulate the markets and so i just saw that as being so silly that i looked around for what type of investigative journalism was left in this world and i had taken my case to lowell bergman from p.b.s. frontline and after a year and a half of working on he said we can verify this stuff but we can't print it so that's why i started traveling to start printing some of this media that people should see in order to make an informed decision. wow richard it really is a mind blowing story you know it's just amazing that here you are supposed to be

ninety eight for the world trade center for this meeting and when it was attacked in hindsight you talk about how your personal experience with all of this shaped your perception of the official narrative and how nine eleven helped wall street cover up essentially billions of dollars in fraud all of the same time a limit in the questions being asked about it can you talk about that. we'll share one of the clients that i had in the earlier company in two thousand and one that we were building these trading platforms on the web to integrate some of their legacy data so they could be accessed by private clients were there was a bank alex brown merrill lynch marshall mcluhan companies some of the largest brokerages insurance companies reinsurance companies in the world and then all of that out after nine eleven these companies are fraudulent lee you know involved in all sorts of insider trading in nine eleven continued to kind of rape and pillage for many many years afterwards and when you look at the financial data who was making money on that day who had the knowledge it does not lead you back to the official tenets of the official story so it begs one the ask some questions and

actually consider what is the relevant data that we have to make this decision with and let's not neglect any relevant aspects and even in the investigation richard i remember government officials saying it's not relevant who was who had for knowledge to bet on the stock options because it's not arabs and that's even more interesting i mean the fact that rich white bankers were betting that these stocks would fail and for all of the attacks really interesting as they could hear you speak you spoke out very loudly about this issue richard but even in the alternative media i hadn't even seen then picking up this story that could blow wide open all of these banks wall street and a collusion with the government i mean why do you think this story isn't more prevalent why i think you know it's a bunch of simple activities that end up to a complex being that needs to be studied in the subject area there's a lot of learning to do because the reality is so far different from what we were taught through school you know in least in my case and everyone you know that i know we all have to do a lot of digging to find what were the origins of these companies what are they

really there to do what purpose they serve in our markets why are we bailing them out and when you get down to the substance and answer to who what where when why and how where to go from for example it's a very interesting story that ties into you know global intelligence. it's a fascinating trip through history to. learn about these different entities that you bump up against in reality and of course when we're looking at regular news consumption and where we're given these very superficial packages that don't really like to put into context all the things that you just spoke about richard let's talk about solutions you started tragedy and hope it's a media project created in the wake of all this insanity and you've said that the current media model in which we consume information is not conducive to learning about what's really going on in the world how is tragedy and hope doing it differently. well what i did was after i retired from corporate america and left the high technology world in two thousand and three i spent a couple years just asking questions and questioning all the beliefs that i had

taken as knowledge through my institutionalized learning like everyone gets in this country and the answers to the knowledge was much more fascinating than the belief side form and after finding so much relevant data in just finding a landscape of history that had yet to be shared in a comprehensive form i said this is all not only a problem but it's also an opportunity to facilitate organize learning for adults who want to learn autonomously on their own time whether it be video podcasting or just going through the different resources on our websites we put everything out there for free and depend on people who find value in what we put out for free to keep us producing so it's a it's a different type of business model but it's one that i think the real mimics my learning process my ability to to kind of grow and share comprehensive knowledge with with the audience and something that tragic and hope subscribes to is the trivia and method of learning something so glaringly obvious that we should be learning yet we're not in our current educational model what is this can you break it down for the audience. in simplest terms it's the expo's that knowledge of how

to learn anything for yourself so that you can do it consistently and to achieve high degrees of certainty in something that you can call knowledge whereas belief is more like you know stopping in a road stop a pit stop on the way to your destination and just saying this is the destination it's not actually asking and answering all the questions you need to get some knowledge and by doing it with the method the trivia method is distinct from the classical trivium of the past twenty five hundred years the method allows the consistency in the high degrees of certainty and be you know. it decreases the level of entropy and communications meaning when the you have an idea to express your expressing it in terms of knowledge that is useful in objective to others how can we reintegrate the trivium on a mask. fail to really reapply critical thinking skills to people. well really i mean i just go back to what we see around us we have tons of products all these products of instruction manuals instruction manuals explain the individual parts

how those parts work together and then how to use whatever product that is and troubleshoot it so if we just apply that same three step model of thinking of observation identification organization we are able to communicate anything cogently not only after learning it for ourselves without a teacher which allows us to grow in many directions as a society might not want you to explore because the power bases in society are based on holding useful information away from you so it's all about asking questions and finding answers absolutely and lastly richard this is something that you said that really stuck with me you said that the history we don't know allows parent to grow what is the ultimate history lesson and what you've produced. the ultimate history lesson is a landmark interview we did with john taylor gatto in two thousand and eleven shortly before he had a stroke so he doesn't do any more public speaking and what we want to do was memorialize his life's work all of his books all of his lectures i had reviewed and it's a five hour interview that gives you the journey and answers the questions of who

how and why our public education system has been. purposely obliterated to destroy self-reliance to destroy self esteem and to destroy any form of knowledge being communicated amongst people richard tragedy and hope as an amazing wealth of information encourage everyone to go learn more about your story and your work richard grove corporate whistleblower and producer the alternate history lesson thanks so much for coming on thank you. so if you're wondering what i'm doing when i'm not even checking out on twitter at abby martin like you see you can follow me there and also find all my free to link into every segment from the show as well as random thoughts i had throughout the day and also please help us get a break in the set trending on twitter ok we'll throw out some hashtags we can get trending but only with your side of twitter at abby martin and right now it's a break from my preaching but stay tuned to hear from a government official who spoke out about bradley manning's treatment next.

to the sea. let me let me i was going to let me ask you a question. here on this network is what we're having the debate we have our knives out. the previously the site spend staying there

again we're in a situation where the united states talk about the surveillance me. i and market two thousand and eleven u.s. assistant secretary of state for public affairs p.j. crowley resigned from the obama administration after making comments regarding the military detention of whistleblower private bradley manning an open forum crowley

said that manning streetman was quote ridiculous counterproductive and stupid and since his resignation crowley has been outspoken not only about bradley manning but also about the effects of the u.s. drone program in countries like pakistan and yemen well earlier today i had the chance to speak with p.j. crowley and self i first asked him about what he saw that made him want to speak out about manning and here's what he had to say. the last thing that the united states needed was another story a negative story about detention policy particularly one involving our own soldiers . it was creating a significant international controversy that was point of contention between the united states and the united nations over access to bradley manning and i thought that this dynamic was actually undercutting the credibility of with all the wise an important prosecution bradley manning stands accused of of damaging united states national interest by. providing to wiki leaks hundreds of thousands

of documents many of them classified or sensitive regarding two ongoing wars and the foreign policy the united states that literally touched almost every relationship united states has with other countries around the world and the process you put not only u.s. interests at risk but put the real lives of real people would talk to u.s. diplomats at risk before we get into what you just said i want to ask was there pressure from the administration for your resignation or did you just decide to resign i resigned on my own volition why. well i just felt that in the in the aftermath with the controversy it created undercut my ability to continue to operate in my position to state ok and you just said you supported bradley manning's attention is not the way that he was treated in the detention because he undermine national security with the release of the classified documents however i can't help but wonder why obama is dredging up archaic world war one

legislation to prosecute whistleblowers who exposed war crimes that aren't a threat to national security such as the torture program i mean years afterward or the n.s.a. wiretapping program and the case of john kiriakou and thomas drake well we i mean there this is the statute that is on the books that covers. the leak of classified information or the deliberate spying on the united states on behalf of another power. but the but the fact is that the release of this information did a number of things i mean you had you had you know when a u.s. foreign minister or u.s. secretary of state talks to a foreign minister for example russian foreign minister sergei lavrov there's an understanding on both sides that this is a confidential conversation that both countries have to have the ability to work together quietly in some cases publicly in other cases to resolve either issues between these countries or broader issues of shared concern. so the release of this

information undercut that sense of trust which is vitally important to successful diplomacy but whether it was a diplomat whether it was an activist whether it was a journalist talking to a u.s. diplomat somewhere in the world particularly north or terry and countries these people were genuinely put at risk and some of them have been intimidated jailed you know because of the release of this information hopefully he gets a fair enough trial we can find out what exactly he did threaten in terms of national security since it's very secretive right now but i want to add i'm going to let me. we disagree with you ok it is an open trial i would like to see that trial be more transparent but in fact bradley manning has spoken in open court he has admitted to providing this material to wiki leaks you know he has offered a a plea which the court is considering. and has accepted his responsibility for what is a serious transgression of united states law when you're talking about

a soldier in an active war zone providing information you know to someone who is not authorized to have a p.t. these are serious charges but we're also talking about war crimes which are also serious charges yet there's been no truth and reconciliation for the entire bush cabinet obama keeps saying let's look forward not backward yet he continues to dredge up these are k. pieces of legislation from world war one to prosecute those who expose the work and so if you're talking about regaining trust and accountability where does that lay i mean if you want to talk about mistakes made during the. war in iraq i'm happy to have that conversation that is a different conversation. a a private first class in a war zone compromising and the united states' national interest and in vital information that is important to the conduct of u.s. foreign policy around the world sure it's one soldier versus an entire ministration who institutionalized a war mentality based on rule known lies that no one was held accountable for that

i i just don't know what to say about obama's refusal to even investigate those those people but let's move on to something else that you've been outspoken about which is drones that you've said that the drone use in pakistan is unsustainable why is it that the current administration cannot acknowledge that drones abroad are a violation of these country's sovereignty and be creating blowback toward this country p.j. well let's let's unpack what you just said. there is still in the world a. danger to the united states a danger to other countries including russia which has suffered its own challenges from violent political extremists. the united states chose one path in two thousand and one in two thousand and three introducing substantial numbers of u.s. forces into those countries. and while this specific.

policies and strategies have been accomplished but it came at a tremendous cost a cost to the united states the cost to iraq in afghanistan and obviously in the process has challenge united states standing around the world there are still people that need to be confronted and if necessary eliminated who pose a threat to the united states and others who are some of bin laden would be a perfect case in point. and certainly drones which can can take care of threats without introducing hundreds of thousands of troops into a foreign country is a better and potentially more humanitarian you know way of dealing with threats they can only be dealt with through lethal force i would prefer that these activities you know be more transparent you know where the cooperation that is happening you know with the united states and other countries. for our

population and the population of those cases of those countries in some cases there is transparent some cases there are still what i consider to be excessive secrecy and that's what i consider to be unsustainable well i mean. i personally i completely disagree with you on everything you just said i don't think that we have a false dichotomy as a choice of either using drones or ground troops to fight really when there is no threat to this country i mean you're saying that there's a threat of terrorism that we have a fighting somehow broad really there is no threat facing this country and do you think that using drones consistently. hundreds if not thousands of the villain billions all across the middle east is creating more terrorism or resentment more blowback that will never be created but this perpetual war where it was first of all let me disagree with your disagreement. has not gone away it has evolved but they are what is the second as it is now it's just the bait some skates might turn to speak but in this case you still have also watery and what is core al qaeda

they're still alive they have been significantly reduced as a threat but they're still trying to calculate how to attack targets in the west including the united states there is al qaeda in the arabian peninsula there is in the islamic magreb we still don't know precisely who was responsible for the death of of our our u.s. diplomats in benghazi there is some indication that there are links from these groups back to al qaida in the islamic magreb you've had you've seen the growth of a threat to the situation in mali so there is still a global terrorism threat. there there there lethality has been reduced significant steps have have been taken to reduce the threat but it is still there and this is a challenge not just for the united states it's a challenge for a variety of other countries around the world and it will it will it will increasingly evolve less military force and more

political social. interaction between these communities to try to reach an understanding where to the extent that these people want to construct a different future they do so they do so through peaceful means and that's what the importance of the arab awakening which it it has hopefully opened up the valve vented a lot of the frustration that fuels and enable the support for a movement like al qaida and we'll see this threat reduced over time ok i agree with you in the sense that we need obviously more transparency about this practice however. i think that once you knock down the top al qaeda leader a second one is going to rise in its place and it's going to be this perpetual warfare for a long long time p.j. and it worries me because i also worry about the attachment from people who acknowledges practice as being a more humanitarian practice when really it's so detached it's detaching us from what's really happening on the ground and the blowback but can we please move on to another point which i think is also really hope for the future leaders will not be

as captivating as been lauded was captivating and while he was well i also think that terrorizing people with drones on a daily basis is not the best way to fight terror. it's just terrorism not a matter of bigger scale but you've also said that you don't think this administration going to take military action against iran and syria so why is it peter that we're seeing so much fear mongering that's so reminiscent to the build up of the iraq war i mean i i there you know there is a great challenge it's a challenge for the united states it's a challenge to russia. no one wants to see the emergence of a nuclear armed iran and the and the likely nuclear arms race in the middle east that would probably result from a from an iran that crosses the line and actually builds a nuclear weapon i still continue to believe that this can be resolved through diplomacy you know on the on the president's recent trip to the middle east it would appear you know there is

a consensus that there is still time to work this diplomatically with other countries including israel that feels itself threatened and justifiably so you know from developed why why do you think it's justifiable for an israel to be when you have when they have this we don't have you here when romney and president as president has stood and said that his objective is to wipe israel off the mistranslation known mistranslation that has been going to say the time that is not in iran can iran not be holmes's a significant security threat to the state of israel and i understand the israeli. concern but again the president the i states has said that he believes that we have the opportunity to resolve this peacefully you know in the next couple of weeks we'll see diplomats from the united states russia other other sit down with iran again and see if we can resolve all that was p.j. crowley former u.s. assistant secretary of state for public affairs and guys that's going to do it for now but we'll see you right back here tomorrow we'll be breaking the set with

a very special guest roseanne. well. it's technology innovation all the latest developments from around russia. since you've covered. when you have nowhere to live. when you don't have a family. when you have no one to ask for help you can always count on. this

man is respected by criminals and also as he is a like fields out it's going to come out of those people like he used to be. for the homeless. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so. you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture.